Talk:Union busting

First topic

I will try to get around to working on this article myself, but I am not an expert in the field. My biggest complaint is how colloquial this article seems. Fsiler 11:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Disputed

What are the reasons for this article being disputed? - FrancisTyers 13:44, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It is obvious that whoever wrote this has little to no experience in labor law or in actual organizing campaigns. One part actually said that if an employer wrongfully discharged someone for union activity, the union would be automatically recognized as a penalty! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamouette (talk • contribs)

I'm glad you're able to properly correct the facts, especially if you know what you're doing. SchuminWeb (Talk) 13:29, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

"Occasionally, a misguided employer may even attempt to fire employees for their union sympathies".

I looked up this article to learn more about union busting for a paper. Something tells me this article isn't all neutral. Fair enough, union busting is not a good thing, but someone who know what they are talking about should clean it up. I can't, having little knowledge on the subject.

This article seems very one sided. The majority of the information seems to come from one source. Does anyone know of any other sources on this topic that could be used to round out the material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.251.41.201 (talk • contribs)

One source? I just counted eleven sources.

But feel free to add more sourced information, if you care to do so.

And please sign your comments here. Richard Myers 05:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

He probably meant it all SOUNDS like it comes from one source - and it does, you. You just go around the internet to a bunch of labour sites and handpick the information you need to reach your goals in biasing the article. Not much attention has been paid to this, because it's a pretty random subject to suspect one person to be obsessed and relentless over. Not many people really feel like bothering with it. 74.251.24.54 01:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Most of the text seems to be written from four different sources, "Confessions of a Union Buster", "From Blackjack to Breifcase", "The corpse on Boomerang road", and "Colorado's fight against militiant unionism". It'd really be nice to get some more sources in there. The sources that are used, however, all seem to be from radical, opiniated sources. That's probably why this article sounds so much like a long winded union rant. I wish we could get some more talent on it, but I'm limited in my time 74.251.36.143 02:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

major rework of article

I am doing have nearly finished a major re-work of this article.

Some of the new content that i am putting into this article may ultimately be moved to an article about strike-breaking, which may be best as a separate article from the current strike-breaking page, Strike action.

Strike action needs work also. So these articles, along with Labor spies, are all going to be in somewhat parallel development.

I recently started, and had worked on Labor spies until just a few days ago, and it is nearing satisfactory quality, i think.

So all of these can be developed/coordinated to form a good group of articles providing a more complete overview of the subject matter. I ask for a bit of patience with the changes over the next week or two. Richard Myers 10:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, i'd like to invite feedback on the possibility of making this article "Strike breaking and union busting" and redirecting "strike breaking" links from Strike action to this article. Richard Myers 13:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

updated Richard Myers 23:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

text transferred from article to talk page

The following text was removed from the article. It is left over after a major re-work. some of this text may still be of value, and certainly could be worked back in.

Employees may be asked to attend one-on-one discussions, group meetings, or lectures about the union, during which they will be paid. Employers must be careful not to intimidate their employees, because employees can appeal to the NLRB, usually resulting in an election being rerun, and in some cases resulting in the employer being automatically required to recognize the union as the bargaining unit representing employees. At these meetings, employers discuss the negative aspects of a union and try to convince employees not to join.

To convince employees that they don't need a union to obtain improvements, a company may provide unexpected increases in wages or benefits, although they cannot condition said benefits or wages on union participation or threaten wage cuts.

In 30% of counter-organizing campaigns an employer fires somebody illegally (Undermining The Right To Organize: Employer Behavior During Union Representation Campaigns,Based on NLRB Region 13 Data). These terminations of employment are illegal under the National Labor Relations Act. Section 8(a)(3) protects employees from wrongful discharge for engaging in protected activity. Protected activity encompasses a wide variety of behavior which shows support for the union organizing campaign (e.g. wearing union paraphernalia, picketing, signing authorization cards).

Transferred by Richard Myers 19:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Issues remaining after major re-work

Going to take a break after a long editing session — here are some article status notes:

• The two appearances of the American Protective League should be consolidated. I think the last instance is the better one, in the history it doesn't have its own title. Done.
• Footnotes and references still need some attention
• I didn't put the "External links" link to IWW repression in the article — i think it should be checked for appropriateness. Repression of the IWW is briefly mentioned in the text of the article. seems ok
• I think i have three links in different parts of the article to Colorado Labor Wars — i don't know if that's a problem in such a lengthy article, since each seems appropriate to the context, but maybe it is overkill. pushing it a little, but maybe ok
• I'd like to do a comparison between the history sections of this article and Labor spies to see if consolidation or more cross linking might be appropriate. Seems ok, only a couple of paras of overlap...
• The final sections on current union busting activities need to be expanded.
• I'm thinking that Labor Spy Agencies, currently a section of Labor spies, may be more appropriate in, or connected with, the union busting topic. Maybe a separate article would be best, with links from Labor spies and Union busting. In any case the section needs much more input, especially with current data.
• A comparison with the strike breaking section of Strike action would be appropriate, with some thought about how these two articles should, or do, work together.

all for now, Richard Myers 23:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

updated Richard Myers 07:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Some suggestions

Hi Richard. Wow, congrats on the monsterous article. I read through it a couple of times (well, 1-1/2 times) and have some notions for your consideration. My only quibbles at this point are structural -- I think in general, the size of the article makes it hard for the visitor to find specific information. So, if it were my baby, this is what I'd do:

• Split Methods of union busting off to its own article, provide a summary here.
• Split History into History of union busting in the United States with a redirect from History of strike breaking in the United States. Provide a summary here.
• Group these into subsections of one section:
  • Who are union busters?
  • Taxpayer-financed union busting
  • Law firms as union busters
  • Industrial psychologists as union busters
• Group "Notable anti-union employer organizations" and "Anti-union programs, services, and websites" into subsections of a single section, maybe "Anti-union activities." After grouping, this might be another chunk to spin off into another article and summarize here.
• Per WP:LEAD, I'd restructure the lead as 5 paragraphs:

1. Who are union busters?
2. Goals and methods
3. History
4. Notable anti-union activities
5. Impact of globalization

• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), consider removing "union busting" out of section titles, for example: "Goals of union busting"->"Goals"
• If you want, you can shorten individual footnotes. See for example this recent FA: Domenico_Selvo. I'm almost sure that "Smith, 2003:68." is as good as " From Blackjacks To Briefcases — A History of Commercialized Strikebreaking and Unionbusting in the United States, Robert Michael Smith, 2003, page 68." as long as the full citation is in the references section.
• I get a feeling that the article is a little light on links.
• I added the pinkerton picture, and guess that adding others might help the exposition. There's some good stuff in and around commons:Category:Trade_Unions.

Cheers. Haus^Talk 13:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

There are some good suggestions here.

I think there's one issue i'd like to have clarified before implementing any of these ideas, and that has to do with strike breaking. As you've no doubt noticed, this article deals with strike breaking in a way that is closely integrated with the concept of union busting. I found during my research for this article that the two are often inseparable.

When i ignored Wiki recommendations on section titles, it was because the article is titled union busting, but the content has to do with both union busting and strike breaking.

The questions, for which i've sought feedback but haven't received much commentary, are: should the article title be changed to Union busting and strke breaking; and, should links to strike breaking go to this article instead of to the Strike action article. We could be bold about this, but in my view there's no great hurry, and this is one of those isssues that i'd like to get some additional comment on before proceeding.

One note of caution, there are a few links to internal sections-- both out of this article, and into it. So these will need to be carefully adjusted during the process of splitting, etc. best wishes, Richard Myers 19:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Haus, if you get a chance, please read Labor spies as well. I want to (at the least) break out the section on union busting agencies from that article. Suggestions welcome. Richard Myers 19:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This is horrifically long and biased and far too reliant on a scant few sources. Also, a number of broad claims here seem unreliable and are not properly cited. Can somebody please verify and correct the claims here, restructure the entire thing, and edit the hell out of it? It reads as a half-academic, half-polemic paper with an agenda. It is not at all encyclopedic and is rarely informative. Sam 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"...a number of broad claims here seem unreliable and are not properly cited..."

Which "broad claims" are you referring to? Such unfocused criticism doesn't help.

best wishes, Richard Myers 22:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

This article is definitely not ready for GA status. Here are some issues:

• Lead is too long and does not adequately summarize the article. See WP:LEAD.
• NPOV concerns. Much of this article is written from a pro-union, anti-business bias. Perhaps a Peer review would help neutralize things.
• It's monstrously long. I suggest splitting out some of the sections into new articles, such as History of union busting, and linking to these as {{mainarticle}}s..
• Relies rather heavily on very few (and possibly biased) sources. Suggest diversifying source materials, as well as reformatting footnotes according to suggestions at WP:MOS.

I notice that many of the suggestions here are essentially the same as those offered above about a month ago.

Chubbles 06:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

"considered by some to be unethical"

"considered by some to be unethical"?? Is this a joke? By some? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Towsonu2003 (talk • contribs) 15:28, 8 May 2007.

That expression has been in the article for a long time—since before recent major editing, at least. I won't miss it. Richard Myers 22:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I too was wondering about that. Talk about marginalizing the movement for workers' rights... I too vote that it should be removed until someone can replace it with something not so wishy-washy. 67.53.78.15 16:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

anti-democratic

Unions are also about democracy. Meaningful democratic participation in the events of one's life, in this case the work place. Like ending chattel slavery and women's equality, so too are unions about the struggle for rights. I realize not all unions are democratic and all too many mirror the corporate/top-down/totalitarian model, but unions have been many different things. Where is the stuff about union busting being anti-democratic? 67.53.78.15 16:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Anecdotes and NPOV

The anecdotes need to be almost wholly removed. For example, the "Declare innocence" section is just one big example from a specific case. Info like that is essentially cluttering up the article and should be deleted (I'll work on cleaning this up myself later). Also, sources on the other side of the issue (i.e. something that argues unions aren't good and justifies fighting them) needs to be added to the article in order for it to meet NPOV requirements. As is, all the sources of this article come from only one side of the issue, which is unencyclopedic. 67.186.34.123 10:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"...sources on the other side of the issue (i.e. something that argues unions aren't good and justifies fighting them) needs to be added..."

This is just flat wrong. The article is about a very specific practice, which is union busting. It isn't about whether unions are good or bad.

The article is about corporations busting unions because that's one of the things that corporations do. If you want balance on that issue, then find sources about unions guilty of corporation busting, if you can, and add that information to the article.

Anyone ever heard of a "non-sequitor"? That's what this is. 74.251.24.54 01:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The "other side" of the union busting issue is already included in the text which states,

When it comes to the financial balance sheet, an employer typically considers labor, i.e., human resources, to be a resource like energy, fuel, or raw material. That is, reducing the cost of the resource contributes to the corporation's net income.

Unionized employees secure better wages and superior benefits compared to their non-union counterparts.[3] Because unions concern themselves with issues such as wages, hours, and working conditions, the company not only must consider the possibility that unions will raise the cost of doing business, but unions may seek work rules which reduce the flexibility of management in running the business.

In nations without universal health care, such as the United States, negotiated health care plans may confer a significant cost on the corporation. Unions frequently seek to negotiate pension plans for represented employees as well, establishing an additional expense for the company.

Lower pay, fewer benefits, and more managerial control over working conditions, scheduling, and hours for the workforce may translate directly into greater profitability. Therefore, many employers seek to prevent unions from conducting successful organizing campaigns, and some may pursue options to undermine or eliminate unions which are already in existence.

This more than adequately expresses the goals and rationale of those who seek to bust unions.

If you want an article that expresses the view that unions aren't good, then create it, and put into it whatever you wish. But stop attacking the specific focus of this article, you're just trying to introduce an anti-union bias under a topic where it doesn't belong. Richard Myers 10:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"Unions aren't good" wouldn't be an encyclopediac article. Neither would "There's a massive conspiracy against Unions everywhere and I have to show you!" - which is basically what this article is, under a different name. This article is just a hodgepodge of random facts, from one point of view. That's not what Wikipedia is supposed to be about. Also, you're attack on him was Ad-hominem - that's against wikipedia guidelines. May I ask you a question? Have you even bothered to read the wikipedia guidelines? 74.251.24.54 01:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

After more than a month, there hasn't been any additional commentary about this article being POV. I'd like to invite folks to weigh in, with the ultimate goal of determining whether any steps need to be taken in order to remove the NPOV tag. thanks, Richard Myers 01:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

That's probably because not many people read this article. It's clearly NPOV. The tag ain't gonna be removed. 74.251.24.54 01:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As a more concrete example of the many POV issues in the article, allow me to highlight two representative areas which might bring the article closer to NPOV standards.

1) Under the heading "Who are union busters," the author italicizes the word "resources" in the first sentence reference to "human resources." The formatting change provides no additional information about the term, but seems to indicate (on my reading) the author's derision of corporate practice. It seems that the italics are meant to indicate the author's point of view that workers ought not to be viewed by the employers as comparable to other resources in making management decisions. Removal of the italics would remove the derision and the implied reference to the author's POV. See the Wikipedia NPOV guidelines re: insinuation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial.

2) The subsection "Dirty tricks" seems to refer primarily to illegal behavior on the part of union busters. What is 'dirty' is a matter of opinion; what is illegal is not. Dirty implies moral turpitude (which is dependent on the moral code used to analyze it, i.e. their POV); illegal merely makes reference to violation of a statute. A change of the section title to "Illegal activity" would remove some of the POV issues. See the Wikipedia NPOV guidelines re: neutral language - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial.

I hope that these changes help to highlight the POV problems in the article, and serve as a basis for substantive cleanup going forward. One other concern I had upon reading is that the article relies very heavily on the Levitt book. The article would be improved by diversifying its sources, or citing to other works more often in conjunction with Levitt's analysis. 24.155.246.8 23:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. Item 1 sounds reasonable. Item 2 has one problem-- some of the "tricks" are not specifically illegal, but they are unethical. Maybe some language that is inclusive of both the unethical and the illegal would work. As far as additional sources, it would be great if someone located same. best wishes, Richard Myers 08:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Umm... the entire point of NPOV is that the article ISN'T supposed to label things as "unethical." It can quote people who say x is or is not ethical... but it cannot itself label it as such. And trust me there are disputes about it, whatever it is :D. Darkmusashi (talk) 02:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Darkmusashi. I think that you responded without evaluating the issue under discussion. The word "unethical" doesn't appear anywhere in the article. One instance of its use in the article was removed a long time ago, and happily so. But Levitt clearly believed that many practices of union busters are unethical, he stated as much in his book, and the article reflects that fact.

For example, the article notes that "Levitt describes ... tapping into managers' racial, class, and gender prejudices and fears." Levitt is then quoted, declaring that:

Union busting is a field populated by bullies and built on deceit. A campaign against a union is an assault on individuals and a war on truth. As such, it is a war without honor. The only way to bust a union is to lie, distort, manipulate, threaten, and always, always attack...

That quotation is clearly indicative of the author's belief that some practices of union busters are unethical. Levitt further describes "[awakening] within the mostly white supervisor corps a hatred of blacks, fear of violence, contempt for women, mistrust of the poor, and, of course, a loathing for the union..." His view comes through clearly, both from the context in the source, which the article describes, and from his quoted text, which confirms the description.

As a matter of interest, there has been pressure to remove some of these quotations, because (it has been argued) there are too many quotations. That's a reasonable complaint. If someone can justify removing a particular quotation and give good reason, i'd be happy to consider it. But i believe this is a complex topic with a lot of different aspects that the article seeks to address in the most authoritative fashion. Removing the more incisive quotations would undermine or destroy the most relevant information in the article.

Levitt was probably the foremost expert on union busting ever to record his views. Having worked as a union buster for many years, he was uniquely qualified to provide a complete and accurate account. Nonetheless, i believe that some of the edits on this article have indicated an intent to remove its best accounts of union busting history, and i anticipate that such attacks will continue. Levitt clearly believed that union busting was unethical, and some apparently don't appreciate having such conclusions expressed. If some don't like Levitt's explanations of union busting because they are "too powerful" or "too one-sided", then i simply disagree. The article is, after all, about union busting, and that's what Levitt addresses so effectively. best wishes, Richard Myers (talk) 06:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Falsification of a direct quotation

Offering the explanation "I changed a few words around", user 74.251.36.143 has changed a direct quotation in this article.

It is unethical to change a direct quotation. It sabotages the diligent work of other editors, not to mention falsifies the true quotation from the source.

Please be careful with any edits that modify quoted material. Richard Myers 02:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't soley change the direct quotation. I modified the style of the main page to try to make it into a less rant-like format. It was late and I must've made a mistake. I believed that was in the main body of article. If it's a quotation, it's different. Should the quotation be there? I'm not sure. It seems a rather jarring transistion to go immediately from union busting to that. The biggest problem I have with this article is merely the way it's written. I don't believe anyone is here to say that Union Busting is a terriffic practice, but the article is just written like a rant. Watermark0n 08:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Your edits are uncareful and ill-considered. Your most recent edits left the nonsense text, "...who well knows know...".

Plus, you changed the meaning of text that appeared to be referenced. Did you check the source book out of the library and find that the text improperly reflected the original material? I doubt it, since your stated motivation reflects your personal disagreement with the article, rather than the article's accuracy in reflecting the reference. Please learn more about editing Wikipedia before you tackle articles that are fully referenced. You think you are disagreeing with the previous editor, but you may be trying to change the words or meaning of a published source. Once again, that is dishonest.

Perhaps the wording of the article could be improved-- that is not a problem. But as it is written, this article represents actual research. Look at all the references at the bottom. Those signify taking the time, and putting forth the effort, to find sources on the subject, and convey the content/meaning of those sources to this Wikipedia article.

You wish to change that robust work to be more in alignment with your personal beliefs. Well, that is not the Wikipedia way. Find new sources that say what you want to be added to the article about union busting, read them, and use them to improve the article. Check for accuracy in reflecting the sources that have already been used. Or look for parts of the article that have not been referenced, for they may not be sourced. But please do not believe that you can jump in and botch a carefully referenced article in any way that suits you. Richard Myers 22:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

All I'm trying to do is make this article more from a neutral POV, Richard. I'm a liberal. I have nothing against unions. This article is just written in a rantlike fashion. All I'm trying to do is introduce my alternative point of view to this article, and maybe by working together we can get that NPOV tag removed. Watermark0n 19:38, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I really believe we should move the part in the main text that I had disagreements with to an sub-category on "modern union busting". Also, the parts about "anti-union" organization, and "The impact of globalization on Unions", really need to be in another article. What are your thoughts on this? Watermark0n 19:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking at it, we could probably make an article out of "The history of Union Busting", also. Which would streamline the article a lot. I don't believe the average person, looking at this, and seeing it's length, would even take the time to read it once they've seen the massive TOC. If we could just concern ourselves with how Union busting takes place, it would really improve the quality of the article. Watermark0n 19:47, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, Mr. Richard, I'm sorry for my earlier confrontive attitude. I've seriously developed an interest in this article and this subject and have an interest in improving it and getting it to good article status. Watermark0n 19:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Glad you want to improve the article! The big thing at this point is diversity. We need more sources. That's why the article failed GA last time it was nominated. If you have some books or articles about it that we've not yet cited, then let's cite something from them. SchuminWeb (Talk) 23:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

I have browsed through the recent edits. This is not the way to edit a Wikipedia article, and have the changes withstand scrutiny. Anytime that someone removes nine thousand bytes from an article because it is information with which the editor disagrees, or of which the editor does not approve, expect the edits to be overturned.

I'm going to offer some of the changes here, to give the flavor of how the article has been hacked. Under Who Are Union Busters?, John Logan had been quoted:

Over the past three decades, US employers have waged what Business Week has called ‘one of the most successful anti-union wars ever’ with spectacular results — private-sector union membership now stands at just 7.9 per cent, its lowest level since the 1920s. But they have not conducted this campaign alone. They have been assisted by an extensive and sophisticated ‘union avoidance’ industry...

The recent edits hacked that information-laden paragraph to a mere statistic:

Private-sector union membership now stands at just 7.9 per cent, its lowest level since the 1920s.

Under How union busting agencies find clients, recent edits removed this quote entirely:

Several union avoidance firms operate internationally, but only in the US has this industry developed into a multimillion-dollar concern that operates throughout the country and in every sector of the economy. And only in the US do employers, policy makers and (to a lesser extent) the general public consider the activities of union avoidance experts a legitimate part of mainstream industrial relations.

This is a direct quote by an expert on the subject that provides relevant information. Someone (with an anonymous IP address) doesn't want such relevant information included in the article, so they deleted it entirely. Ditto with nine thousand bytes of text from the article. The overall edits constitute an attack on this article, under the guise of making it more balanced. Richard Myers 01:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Criticism

Aritcles like this are honestly the worst thing about wikipedia. One guy, this Richard guy, basically owns this article. He apparently sits at his computer all day and comes up with stuff to put in it, and deletes anything any more sensible person comes along to post. This article should put on moderation lockdown while it's cleaned up. For one thing, it's far too large for such a simple issue. It's unreadable. 74.251.24.54 01:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. All "sources" cited come from already biased radical readings with little in the way. I don't even know where to start about this whiny, low-quality propaganda article with little in the way of fact, knowledge, or citation of credible labor law sources. "Union busting" is a colloquialism for something that intelligent people would call "Anti-Union Activity." 208.125.232.185 (talk) 20:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The topic of the article isn't "labor law" it is "union busting". Probably nine out of ten folks who are looking for information about union busting will search for the term union busting, and not for "anti-union activity". Therefore, your observation doesn't appear to be as "intelligent" as you claim. Maybe redirecting from union busting to an article called anti-union activity would be a reasonable compromise. As for your criticism of sources, what is keeping you from editing to improve the article??? Drive-by bashing may be a favorite activity on Wikipedia, but it isn't a very honorable tradition. 4.227.252.160 (talk) 16:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I presume you mean that a redirect to anti-union activity should be made to point to union busting? Since if "Union busting" is the common term, that should be the title of the article. SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

This is one of the most biased Wikipedia articles I ever read. It might as well have come off of the UNITE website verbatim. Ndriley97 (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing your past contributions, Ndriley97, i don't think you have any room to fling about accusations of bias. Your recent history includes smearing, red-baiting, editing to make articles more biased from your own point of view, and erasing from your own talk page complaints by others about personal attacks you've made. The comment above was originally a fine example of red-baiting before someone challenged you on it.

If you're new here, please understand that all of us who bring viewpoints to Wikipedia go through a process of understanding and working through our differences. There are many different points of view on Wikipedia, and we all need to work together rather than employ personal attacks (red-baiting, or other) to tear down articles we may not agree with.

If you have a specific example of bias to challenge, then let us please hear about it. Consider that most of the article is carefully resourced, so balancing with other sources could be a most helpful contribution. Richard Myers (talk) 03:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Goals of union busting

I agree that this entire article is one sided. Some of it can be corrected however (to appear neutral) by simply changing specific words. This article is very informative, but appears to lean in one direction. I agree that this entire article is one sided. This article states "Unionized employees secure better wages and superior benefits compared to their non-union counterparts." OK, that is an opinion! --Kentucky1333 (talk) 16:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Excessive quotes

It's fine to use a quote when the quote contains information, but there are entirely too many here. It borders on violating the copyright of the author. Stick to the facts and don't use the quotes as a vehicle to insert extraneous prose - it really does not improve the article. If you need to establish context, put it in your own words and use the book as a ref. An encyclopedia article is a summary of what secondary sources say - it should not contain lots of quotes. I've already removed several that didn't contribute to the article (i.e. the text that remained stood well on its own). Buspar (talk) 06:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of quotations, and maybe removing some of them would improve the article. However, i think the quotes are particularly informative, and i'd like to see a specific rationale for removing each of them, rather than a general rationale. I have left the quote farm tag in place. Richard Myers (talk) 07:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Too many quotes a) constitute a possible copyright infringement (Fair Use only allows a sample, not extensive quotes) and b) summaries, not quotations, should be the main focus of the article. Quotes giving opinions without listing hard facts (which are several that I removed) should just be summarized. And the quotations with facts should also be summarized. I suggest that if you want to keep the content, please start putting them in your own words. Also, be sure to read WP:OWN, I noticed some of your edit summaries were a tad on the possessive side. Buspar (talk) 03:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice suggestion. I think that too many quotes look lazy and cutting down quotes and summarizing is a good way of trimming the fat. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 06:54, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Dispute over CNA's actions in Ohio

So I figured I'd open this discussion so that the protection can be lifted. Why is it believed that this incident of union busting is not relevant to the article? Or is it that the people who wish to remove it do not trust the Chicago Tribune as a source? Lets resolve this through a dialog and come to a consensus on how these actions should be incorporated into the Union Busting article. Do you feel it should be put in a different part of the article? If so which? Checkmate000 (talk) 04:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I supported the inclusion because the source was reliable, and it appeared to fit the article. SchuminWeb (Talk) 10:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

There is an ongoing organizing conflict between the CNA/NNOC and the SEIU. This sort of thing, while unfortunate, has happened many times in the history of organized labor. It does not, however, constitute "union busting", and should not be labelled as such by inclusion in this article. User:Checkmate000 is clearly an SEIU partisan, and has made a whole series of POV, anti-CNA/NNOC edits, including this one. The CNA/NNOC-SEIU conflict should be addressed in the directly relevant article(s) -- i.e. National Nurses Organizing Committee -- not here. Period. Cgingold (talk) 08:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Why did you delete the reference from the National Nurses Organizing Committee article of these actions as well as those from the California Nurses Association article? see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_Nurses_Organizing_Committee&diff=199201701&oldid=198113868 and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=California_Nurses_Association&diff=199195957&oldid=198695882 Checkmate000 (talk) 03:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

To begin with, that first diff you gave is bogus -- it completely misrepresents my actual edit. As I've stated repeatedly, the problem with your edits is that you've been pushing a particular agenda: pro-SEIU, anti-CNA/NNOC. I therefore reverted them in their entirety. If you're paying attention, then you know that I've also taken steps to deal with some pro-CNA edits. Lastly, I don't know why you're raising this issue here, rather than responding to my comments on the subject of union busting. I can only guess that's because you realize that you don't have a leg to stand on. Cgingold (talk) 05:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• I've solicited input from other disinterested editors who are also (as I am) members of the Organized Labour WikiProject. Here is a response on this issue, copied verbatim:

Unions can bust other unions, but the only situation I can think of is during strikes. (It was quite common in the period 1860-1930 for unions to scab strikes against one another.) But I would argue competition during organizing campaigns is hardly union-busting (if that's the case, SEIU itself is a most egregious perpetrator; see its fights with AFSCME over home care and home child care workers). I also would be amazed to find a mainstream or even labor press article which calls CNA's intervention in Ohio "union-busting"; merely holding a contributor with an agenda to the standards of citation should help eliminate interpretation problems (because this is a matter of interpretation, possible: Is CNA's intervention competition, or union-busting?). Tim1965 (talk) 13:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I really cannot believe that Checkmate000 is citing that Chicago Tribune article as his supposed authority for labeling this inter-union conflict as "union busting" on the part of the CNA/NNOC. The person quoted as saying that was an SEIU official, ferkrisake. Puh-lease... give me a break! Cgingold (talk) 06:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I find it interesting that nobody else has decided to actually put their input on this page. Instead you rely on pasted relies which are taken out of context. Also you fail to realize that the Chicago Tribune article was not the only article cited.

• Your edits were not taken out of context, although you did do other edits, the end result was that you deleted any reference to the CNA/NNOC actions.
• I do believe that Tim1965 makes a good point that perhaps we should edit the way it is constructed. What distinguishes this from the 19th century is that the end goal of the actions of the nineteenth century was to gain jobs for their own members (or in the AFSCME/SEIU dispute, to gain members). In the current CNA/SEIU dispute, the CNA did not nor have they taken actions in order to gain members or organize any workers at the locations where they urged workers to vote no.
• I feel that this is the major distinction. Also in comparison to the 19th century they have not attempted to replace current nurses with CNA nurses. Simply put the CNA has not taken a position which is has the effect of advancing their own union but instead has simply attempted to damage another union.

It is for the end goal which I feel raises the actions of the CNA to union busting and not simply an inter-union dispute. Whether or not it has been labeled as such by a newspaper should not exclude it if the end goals fit with the rest of the article and the events which occured are not in dispute. Also the methods used seem to be lifted straight out of the methods used by union busters described in this page: "Consultants may direct management to establish "Vote No" committees of pro-company employees charged with the responsibility of rewarding loyal workers." The only difference it appears is that management was left out of these actions.

(In order to respect the ideals of wikipedia, I am not going to edit the article immediately to allow for discussion prior to editing)Checkmate000 (talk) 16:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Good to hear this, and the most sensible thing you've said thus far. It's worth noting that this is a particularly defamatory accusation when leveled at a labor union, tantamount to the sort of libelous material that good editors remove on sight from articles about living people -- so leaving it out of the article while we sort things out is definitely a wise decision. And I also support your RFC request, which is in essence what I did when I solicited input from the Organized Labour WikiProject. Again, please bear in mind that I am not a partisan of either side in this inter-union dispute -- I've removed or toned down material that characterized both unions in a POV fashion.

For now, let me briefly explain what the real problem appears to be here. I see from your contributions that you are relatively inexperienced as a Wiki editor. Nothing wrong with that, but it suggests that you need to better familiarize yourself with the core principles that are the foundation of all editing on Wikipedia. If you devote some time to a thorough reading of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:OR, you'll be in a much better position to understand why such a partisan approach to editing is not allowed.

In a nutshell, the assertion that CNA/NNOC's actions in their dispute with SEIU constitute "union busting" is, simply put, your personal POV. No matter how strongly or sincerely believed, and regardless of the cogency (or lack thereof) of the argument that you articulate, the bottom line is that you're attempting to advance a novel thesis that isn't supported by reliable sources. As such, this constitutes "Original Research", which is strictly prohibited. Unless and until there are multiple credible, independent sources that substantiate the notion that CNA/NNOC's actions do, in fact, constitute "union busting", there is no basis for you to label it as such. I'm afraid the only thing that either of your sources actually substantiate is a bit of name-calling on the part of an SEIU official.

At this point I'm going to retire from this discussion and await the input of other disinterested editors. Cgingold (talk) 11:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Big Article

If it gets 5kb bigger, Wikipedia:Article size says it should almost defo. be split into serveral smaller articles Larklight (talk) 19:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Cost-push Inflation and Efficiency

The new sections provide some balance to the article. But they rely upon a narrow point of view about economic theory.

The sections Cost-push Inflation and Efficiency have some problems. For example, Hayek is a political thinker, and has a notable anti-union bias. The quotation should either be explained in that light, or be removed.

I think the reference to a disagreement between political economists and Austrian economists is extraneous and distracts from the article's main point, which is union busting.

Meanwhile, there are important political reasons that governments may curtail unions-- the economic argument isn't the only reason, nor is it necessarily a valid explanation in all cases.

But the article also is about union busting in general, not government-sponsored union busting, so let's not focus too narrowly.

I plan to make some changes in these two sections, but thought i'd allow some time for others to edit these sections first, in case someone would like to improve them in light of these issues.

The section on social costs of unions (which i removed) made an unsupported assertion. If it can be supported adequately and briefly, i'd have no problem with its return. Richard Myers (talk) 19:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed this text:

Cost-push inflation

“ There can be little doubt that union activities lead to continuous and progressive inflation. ”

F. A. Hayek, the Constitution of Liberty

By causing wage increases above the market rate, unions increase the cost to businesses, causing them to raise their prices, leading to a general increase in the price level. However, Austrian economists dispute this, arguing that the increase in the cost of labour simply means that less of other goods can be bought. Milton Friedman wrote that, regardless of the other effects of unions, they do not cause inflation

However, Austrians are a minority force in economics, and Governments may seek to reduce the powers of unions to restrain inflation.

Efficiency

The effect of union activities to influence pricing is potentially very harmful, making the market system ineffective. By raising the price of labour above the market rate, deadweight loss is created. Additional non-monetary benefits exacerbate the problem. This reduces output and long-term growth, encouraging governments to hinder the activities of unions.

This article isn't about Austrian economists, nor about why unions are bad. It is about the practice of avoiding or busting unions. The above material could find a nice home in Opposition to trade unions, but it does not belong here. Richard Myers (talk) 19:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The sections are relivant- the article not only has to show how unions are busted, but why. Hayek hasn't an anti-union bias, he recognises the role that it is necessory for them to play in society and protecting their members. I'd remove the reference to Friedman and the Austrians but that would make it seem like everyone agreed with Hayek- which is far from true. Personally I think he was mistaken.

If there are more reasons why Governments bust unions, say them. Really, all the reasons are economics- I think you mistunderstood how wide-reaching economics is. But that's a linguistic point.

What is the unsupported assertion on social costs?

Finally, the article doesn't focus too much on Government- half that section is on private justifications, and it's only a small part of the article. Larklight (talk) 19:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Larklight, you included your material in Opposition to trade unions (which i suggested would be a more appropriate place for it). Now you wish to re-insert it here. Please understand, duplicate entries of text in related articles are unnecessary and are generally frowned upon. But also, your material fits in Opposition, but is extraneous in Union Busting. I feel we have already compromised with you, to include your point of view about some reasons that unions are attacked. You are seeking to eliminate balance on this issue, and re-insert your own opinion in its place. That won't fly. Richard Myers (talk) 18:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not reinserting, I'm revetring your blanking, which is a slightly different thing. An artyicle on union busting needs to include motives, and if duplicate sections are frowned on, they can be re-worded: not blanked. If you wish to remove information from wikipedia, please discuss it on the talk page first, and respond to my points. Larklight (talk) 21:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Larklight, i think that you think this editing back and forth is a game. Consider, you did exactly what you are asking others not to do-- removing content. The references were to works by Barbara Ehrenreich, Naomi Klein, and Michael D. Yates. You removed these references. The article is better with balance, but you keep deleting the balancing points of view.

I have responded to the other material. I consider it extraneous to the practice of union busting, and you've duplicated it elsewhere, in a more appropriate article. At least i preserved it here on the talk page, so that others could examine it and come to their own conclusions. Your editing practices are less friendly, and you're unwilling to consider other viewpoints about the text that you keep re-inserting.

Please put the references to Austrian economists and inflation in articles about Austrian economics and inflation. Please allow folks who are interested in the topic of union busting to have some input to the topic of union busting. And finally, please consider that repeatedly adding extraneous material to an already lengthy article is counter-productive. Richard Myers (talk) 08:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Removing POV tag

This article has not been argued about on it's POV for four months, and I'm taking the tag down. I would recommend that it does not get put up, especially if those arguing about it (as was the case above) are not even registered users. What they must do is put tags in specific sections, to point out what exactly is wrong.

I think a bit more uniformity could be brought to the structure though: the use of cquote for those blue marks I would only use for extended quotes. Otherwise I think <blockquote is the best practice.

Recently I created The Burke Group article which drew some sharp attention. I think it's a topic where people working in the union busting industry won't be happy with any information, of any point of view or no point of view to get out. Wikidea 19:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Article neutrality

Being a Brit, and for my sins a lawyer (!), I take the neutrality policy on Wikipedia policy to be getting at what we do with our media here in the UK: under the Communications Act 2003 all public broadcasters must follow a policy of (1) accuracy (2) impartiality in all news and political views that they cover. Accuracy is an obvious concept. Impartiality means that a balance has to be given to both sides of the argument. I can see from the posts above that this article has made a strong effort to put in what (some neoclassical) economists' arguments for union busting are. I would suggest that this is exactly the right approach - giving substantially equal weight to both sides. Where this article might encounter challenges in the future is with some of the quotes at the lead of subsections from Confessions of a Union Buster. I would recommend that anyone who thinks this could make the article endorse a point of view (which clearly it does not - it simply presents a point of view in some places) should find quotes specific to that topic which say the contrary, as the lead to the substance of that subsection. I hope that is clear enough. This article is packed with information and with some further improvements could defintely go to GA or FA. Wikidea 20:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Quotations

I'll admit this article has improved from previous versions I saw, but I think it still relies too heavily on quotes from a single source (Confessions of a Union Buster). As a result, this article is less a proper entry and more an essay based on that book, which leads to possible WP:COPYVIO problems. Suggestions for improvement:

• Examples given in quotes should be put into original words.
• Anything in quotes that is stated in the text of a section (for example, some of the intro quotes) should have the quote removed.
• It should be evaluated if all the long quotes are really needed or are redundant.

For example, we don't need 2 examples of a union busting tactic, just 1 with a couple sources. Freelandd (talk) 04:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

List of Firms

A list of firms that do anti-union consulting work was recently deleted. The reason given was that to call the firms "union busters" somehow was "way too bold." Without attempting to quantify the boldness threshold for Wikipedia entries, I reverted the deletion because inclusion of the list of firms is consistent with the descriptions of union busting in the article, particularly contemporary forms of union busting. Moreover, these firms, their staff, and freelance associates are commonly referred to as union busters in the parlance of union organizers.Tony Clothes (talk) 03:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Rgcroc removed the list, with a note suggesting that to list the firms is tantamount to advertising. I think this is an interesting point and am curious what others think.Tony Clothes (talk) 16:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

It is advertising, and violates WP:NPOV to go out and call these organizations "union busters", whether the term could fairly accurately be applied to them or not. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be more constructive if you would provide some arguments as to why you think it's advertising and why you think accurate information could be construed to violate WP:NPOV, rather than a simple declaration that "this is so because I said so." Tony Clothes (talk) 20:06, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm open to being persuaded either way. But i have considered that it would be useful to have such a list available. We have lists of unions, i'm not sure why lists of union busters would be a problem.

I do see one important consideration that perhaps ought to be discussed before such a list is created. What criteria are appropriate for inclusion? Some companies are easy (they advertise on their websites), but inclusion of some others might be debatable.

Finally, a question: does such a list exist elsewhere on the web? I searched for one without success a couple of years ago, but haven't checked recently. Richard Myers (talk) 00:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I consider naming off a list of companies considered to be union busters as crossing the NPOV line. Most companies that engage in union-busting activity likely don't call themselves that, and use another term for the same idea. Additionally, there comes the idea of inadvertently accusing a company of being a union-buster and getting in trouble for that. SchuminWeb (Talk) 01:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok...may I add? It would be nice to have a dialogue without Wikipedia operatives exercising rapid delete power. There are things to be learned here. I recently posted a rant that ya'll should have read but instead deleted. But oh well...it's gone. The list I provided was real. the problem here is that people who add to this site are not all American. There is a different experience in the UK vs the US. There needs to be a cross cultural agreement. Labor laws differ UK to US to Canada etc. So stop with the delete button and get on the same page. The union buster s I listed are well known among attorneys and US unions. Someone (tony clothes)addes a firm that has never been heard of by any of the heretofore well known union busters. You all as if they are, in fact, union busters? You are clearly not from the US!!! Is this strictly a UK managed site? --Rgcroc (talk) 05:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)rgcroc--Rgcroc (talk) 05:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

And if I may add once again.....I am in the legal world. Can you please explain to me your veneration for MartinLevitt? In the US he is well known. I knew him personally. Are you going to rapid delete me now? He was a ridiculous human being. It saddens me that this site and certain union operatives have adopted him as the icon. C'mon. Get some self respect. Somehow this man's book has become the bible. Yet in actual fact among higher level operative within the real world, he is hardy the spokesperson for either side. Surely we can find a more venerable icon? If you want this post to be respected....there are other much more notable people to quote.

And why would you list the Burke group as union busters and be OK with that and then question the others I provided? If you google they have more press than the burke group!!! But that's in the US.....you folks must be outside the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgcroc (talk • contribs) 05:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

You're drunk. Tony Clothes (talk) 08:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Very, Very POV

'Only after a union organizing drive is defeated, might company executives be allowed to return to their "tyrannical" ways.'

'The workers won't find the time to discuss their own issues if they're sufficiently bombarded with the "twisted disinformation" sown by the union buster.'

Wow, this is the single most POV article I've ever read on Wikipedia, and that's saying something. And yet it doesn't have a NPOV banner?

Putting snippets from a source in the middle of your sentence and then claiming that it's NPOV because it's from the source not from you... well that doesn't work. 24.224.203.60 (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The footnote clarifies the use of the word "tyrannical". The article's text accurately summarizes the content and tone of the source. I expect that the problem here is, 24.224.203.60 doesn't like the content of the source. But there's a simple fact that supports this inclusion: Martin Jay Levitt was somewhat unique in that he (1) possessed intimate knowledge about the practices of union busters, and he (2) wrote a book about those practices. Therefore Martin Jay Levitt is not just a source for this article, he is one of the best possible sources. The article accurately reflects not only his knowledge, but also his overall perceptions of union busting. Martin Jay Levitt's contributions to our knowledge of union busting are important, and need to be preserved and accurately characterized.

There is another consideration: when folks don't like the content of an article as reflected in quotations, they may attack the article as having too many quotations. When the content is summarized rather than quoted, folks who don't like the content may complain that the summary is unfair or inaccurate, i.e., "[p]utting snippets from a source in the middle of your sentence and then claiming that it's NPOV because it's from the source not from you... well that doesn't work." Why not find some sources that reflect the POV that you're bringing to this article, and contribute? Richard Myers (talk) 16:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Please....Martin J. Levitt was a pathological liar, felon, and two faced maniac who worked for whomever would pay him. He was an addict and did time in prison. His book is quite clear about that. Did he say nasty things about union busters? YES!! But was he paid by the AFL-CIO? YES!! If he'd been paid by Jackson Lewis to write a book he'd have said nasty things about unions too!!! Did anyone notice that he said nothing about The Burke Group in his book? He knew them well and they were totally famous when he wrote his book but he never mentioned them. Have any of you considered he actually respected them because they were not like the union busters he described and he refused to mention them alongside the union busters he disdained? This article on union busting has so many references to his book it is ridiculous. Have any of you actually read it? He was blackballed by the labor relations industry as an embarrassment which he admits in his book so he switched sides yet the union industry is proud of him and there is something very wrong with that picture. You really need to find another hero to have any credibility. --Rgcroc (talk) 02:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)rgcroc--Rgcroc (talk) 02:00, 19 August 2008 (UTC)