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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 81.18.62.141 (talk) at 16:10, 23 August 2008 (→New articles?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Following multiple discussions, comments are invited at Talk:2008 South Ossetia war/Article_title.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.

POW's

Will someone edit the casualties section of the infobox, it should be put in the Russian part of the casualties section 19 missing (5 captured[1]), as the reference I provided confirms that 5 soldiers or pilots were captured, also the given reference and plus this one [1] confirm that 15 georgian soldiers were captured during the conflict in South Ossetia and another 22 were captured today in Poti so it should be put in the georgian casualty section something like this: 215 soldiers killed, 300 missing and 37 captured, based on these two references. Will anyone make this edit?

Suggestions for a New Introduction

Would it be possible to suggest the following as a rejigged introduction, correcting some of the grammatical errors, and paring down the size of the introductory text significantly:

The 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008, with a military attack by Georgia into the break-away province of South Ossetia, which since 1992 de facto has enjoyed a high degree of autonomy.[18] [19] Russian armed forces responded with a counter-attack into South Ossetia, also advancing into provinces of Georgia outside South Ossetia. A preliminary cease-fire was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008.

On August 2, 2008, conflict between Georgian and South Ossetian forces increased sharply, with the former claiming to be motivated by rocket attacks and the latter claiming to be responding to a heavy bombarbment of Tshinvallia. A stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population.[23] More than 11,000 of them would return after the intervention of Russia in the war.[24]

The direct involvement of the Russian Federation began on August 7 by with an attack on Georgian forces in South Ossetia. They were successful in driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali and struck targets in and around the city of Gori. By August 18, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians had fled their homes in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia proper due to the conflict,[29] while many of their homes were reportedly looted and destroyed by pro-Russian irregular forces.

At present, the Russian military has announced that it has begun a ten day withdrawl from advance positions. Western nations have largely condemned the Russian actions, but the conflict is seen by all parties as connected to the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe.

I really do think that this is fair. This speel needs to be pared down: it is an introduction after all. As to any POV issues regarding my edits, I have tried to present known facts and a balance of opinions, before ending by placing the conflict in its broader global realpolitik context.

If cannot please both sides, then the least that I hope that it will do is please neither side. Suggestions welcome.

Currently we have:

By preliminary estimate the 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008 with a military attack by Georgia into its break-away province South Ossetia, since 1992 a de facto independent entity.[18] [19] Russian armed forces responded with a counter-attack into South Ossetia, also advancing into provinces of Georgia outside South Ossetia. A preliminary cease-fire was arranged by the President-in-Office of the European Union, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, on August 12, and signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008.

The war involves the country of Georgia, the Russian Federation and the breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Just hours after Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili declared a cease-fire with South Ossetian separatist troops, Georgian military forces unleashed a barrage of shelling on the province's capital, Tskhinvali, late Thursday and early Friday. Georgia then proceeded to launch a massive military offensive in South Ossetia.[20][21] The Georgian government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian secessionists.[22] In the following battle, the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, was damaged. Starting on the August 2 and increasing with the intensifying fighting, a stream of refugees from South Ossetia fled into Russian region of North Ossetia, reaching an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population.[23] More than 11,000 of them returned after the intervention of Russia in the war.[24] South Ossetian and Russian authorities alleged a civilian death toll of over 2,000 early in the conflict.[25] However, on August 13 Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch, while acknowledging that investigation was not yet complete, said that this figure was "suspicious" and "very doubtful", citing a Tshinvalli hospital report of 273 wounded and 44 dead.[26].

Russia responded the next day by large scale bombardment of Georgian military and civilian targets by sending troops and armor into South Ossetia, driving the Georgian troops out of Tskhinvali. The Russian air attacks on the Georgian city of Gori also hit civilian targets.[27] The president of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvili claims that Russia is attempting to cause a regime change to depose the democraticly elected Georgian government due to Georgia's close relations with Western nations.[28] By August 18, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians have fled their homes in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia proper due to the conflict,[29] while many of their homes were reportedly looted and destroyed by pro-Russian irregular forces. By August 17, the United Nations confirmed "massive looting" in Gori,[30] while South Ossetia acknowledged it is keeping more than 100 Georgian civilians hostage, including women and children.[31]

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused Georgia of committing "genocide"[32] while President Dmitry Medvedev stated that his country's goal was "to force the Georgian side to peace", and that he "must protect lives and the dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are."[32] The Georgian leader has also appealed to the world for help after accusing Russia of conducting "ethnic cleansing" in his country,[33][34] claiming that it had depopulated the entire South Ossetia region of its Georgian civilians and that almost all Georgian residents of Kodori Valley were expelled by the Abkhaz separatists with the aid of the Russian military. The Georgian side has also filed a lawsuit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, claiming Russia, through the separatist authorities in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, violated a convention meant to eliminate racism.[35] South Ossetian separatist leadership said it does "not intend" to let the Georgian civilians return to their homes.[36]

August 12, Georgia launched the application against actions of Russia in the International Court of Justice [37]. Orthorhombic (talk) 21:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I agree, the introduction will need to be revised as we continue to have the benefit of hindsight. However: "On August 2, 2008, conflict between Georgian and South Ossetian forces increased sharply, with the former claiming to be motivated by rocket attacks and the latter claiming to be responding to a heavy bombarbment of Tshinvallia." Is this a fact? Can it be referenced please? It may be more accurate to state that both sides blame each other for starting the conflict, with ongoing minor hostilities dating back for several decades. According to one Russian report, the hostilities may have started initially with an argument that erupted during dinner, resulting with 15 Russian peacekeepers getting shot in the process. Clearly, these guys are not diplomats with pens as their weapons. :-) Here is the link in Russian. http://www.expert.ru/articles/2008/08/13/kochetkov_photo/ USchick (talk) 21:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"with a military attack by Georgia Georgia into the break-away province of South Ossetia, which since 1992 de facto has enjoyed a high degree of autonomy." About this intro. I disagree with the "high autonomy" one, de facto independent is more accurate and less controversial because seperatists don't just strife for autonomy. Also, South Ossetia is not a province as far as I know, and is an area that currently overlaps several provinces. I think it should also be fair to include the fact that only part of South Ossetia was de facto independent, and the other parts, mainly georgian villages were controlled by the Georgian government and that it was forces there (aka the georgian peacekeepers) that were constantly active in skirmishes with Ossetian controlled villages. I did not know this in the beginning myself and it took me a while to find out.
Also I'm not sure if the war started when Georgia tried to take Tskinvali, but possibly instead when Russian forces started the invasion with the attack on Tskinvali being the Casus belli. Grey Fox (talk) 21:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
agreed, some of the text can be changed, here's comments:
The 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008, with a military attack by Georgia into the break-away province of South Ossetia, which since 1992 de facto has enjoyed a high degree of autonomy.
old text was fine, verbiage of "de facto independence" is used in many sources, including wikipedia article on SO. Plus "de facto high degree of autonomy" is awkward and hasn't been mentioned elsewhere.
By preliminary estimate the 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008 with a military attack by Georgia into its break-away province South Ossetia, since 1992 a de facto independent entity.[18] [19]
also, if you are mentioning destruction of buildings in Gori, you have to mention destruction of civilian buildings in Tskinvali by the Georgian forces prior to Russian action. Anatoly.bourov (talk) 22:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Something like this is better: "The 2008 South Ossetia war began on August 7, 2008, when an attempt by Georgia to capture the capital of the break-away province of South ossetia, which became partially de facto independent since the 1991–1992 South Ossetia War, promted Russia's military to responded with a counter-attack into South Ossetia.
Also Bourov that's a bit more controversial, since it's unsure who is responsible for the damage in Tskinvali (according to Georgia it was Russian artillery). Grey Fox (talk) 22:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
GreyFox -- is Human Rights Watch credible enough? Economist
Much of the damage was done by the Georgians, says Human Rights Watch (HRW), a monitoring group. Shortly before midnight on August 7th Mr Saakashvili ordered a bomb barrage using Grad multiple-rocket launchers. This lasted through the night. Even his supporters agree that the use of indiscriminate Grad rockets, which killed civilians, was disproportionate and merciless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anatoly.bourov (talk • contribs) 23:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose to Bourov version. Although current version is not good, the suggested changes do not really improve anything. Both versions tell: "Russian armed forces responded with a counter-attack". Such sentence wrongly implies that Russian forced had an obligation to respond and in fact "responded". This was not the case. They had no obligation to "respond". What they did was not a "counter-attack". That was an "attack". However changes by Grey Fox are good. Biophys (talk) 22:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
what exactly are you opposing to? I did not suggest a new version, all I posted was the proposed and the old content...Anatoly.bourov (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also I'm not sure if the war started when Georgia tried to take Tskinvali, .. Therefore i used the phrase preliminary estimate to reveal the temporary character of a certain fixed date like "August 7th". Regarding international law SO and Abch. are still today part of Georgia. The definition of de facto independent entities is uncertain and topic of controversies we cannot track here. Bourov tries to implement anyway the Moscow version. Elysander (talk) 22:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, I've not suggested any new text, merely linking existing intro. I resent your personal attacks. Anatoly.bourov (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
De facto independent means that its independent in practice, but not lawfully (thats de jure), so thats pretty accurate, although it should be noted that only part of South Ossetia was de facto independent (most of it). Grey Fox (talk) 22:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
that only part of South Ossetia was de facto independent (most of it) ... as in Abchazia too. And don't forget "formally" in both "regions" the Georgia-loyal governments led by ethnic Southossetians and Abchazians. Elysander (talk) 23:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, South Ossetia is not a province. Tskhinvali is situated in Gori province for example. Narking (talk) 04:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The introduction should follow the rules of journalism and state undisputed facts. How the war started and who did what will continue to be debated throughout history. In the meantime, what are the facts that we can all agree on? Everyone's opinion here is welcome and valued. 1. This was an armed conflict that started in August of 2008. (Exact date seems to be in question and can be answered in a timeline of events section, unless it is undisputed that August 7 is the official date.) 2. The participants were Georgia on one side. SO, Abkhazia, and Russia on the other side. 3. Both sides blame eachother for starting the conflict. 4. President-in-Office of the European Union and President of France, Nicolas Sarkozy, brokered a cease-fire on August 12, that was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. 5. Tshinvalli was the location of the first major battle, with major destruction to non-military targets. Other battles and locations can be listed in a separate section. 6. Civillian refugees trying to get out of the way created a humanitarian crisis. 7. The world watched in horror as this seemingly local border dispute erupted into a nightmare. (This last part is my opinion, but something similar can be said to reflect the fact that the result was severe devastation and that no one else got involved with military action.)

Please contribute other facts or feel free to comment on the ones listed. Once we agree on the facts, let's put them into paragraph form, and viola! that's the introduction, followed by a timeline of events. :-) USchick (talk) 05:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although I completely agree with USchick, there are three important points to be mentioned. 1. This is actually Russian-Georgian war because Ossetian separatists are not an independent side of the conflict. This article must be renamed, as was discussed previously. 2. The war began from the attack of Russia on Georgia. One should remember that South Ossetia is a part of internationally recognized Georgian territory. So, whatever wrong Saakashili did at his own territory may be relevant to the causes of the war, but it does not constitute the war itself. As an example, the US invasion of Iraq began from US invasion, not from 9/11, the genocide of Kurds or anything else. 3 The current outcome of the war is wrong. It is the occupation of the Georigan territory by Russian forces, rather than anything else. If Russian forces remain in the South Ossetia and Abkhazia, that would be also annexation of the internationally recognized Georgian territories.Biophys (talk) 21:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If we try to be very objective and stick to the facts, the new introduction will be very short. Until we move to a new page with a new name, I support the effort to continue with a new introduction and add the name later, because right now the existing intro is very biased and inaccurate. Looking at the other articles on this topic in other languages, many seem to be direct translations of this page, so we need to get it right. Please see new proposal at the bottom of this page. USchick (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. UN Charter, Article 1, Chapter 1 , part 2
  2. Article 1 in both the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR).
  3. The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights article 15
Self-determination All three of these laws take precedence, as would do constitutional law. Therefore the de facto status implies independence regardless. Until the founding principles that overrule are changed. Hence the dual truth of de facto independence and non-recognition.--Tananka (talk) 14:12, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, taking on board as many people's suggestions as possible, may I suggest this as a rejigged version of the initial paragraph. If it is not able to satisfy both sides (people in perfect agreement don't go to war!), then at the very least it will hopefully satisfy neither side.

The 2008 South Ossetia war began around August 7 was a land, sea and air war fought between the Republic of Georgia on one side and the separatist regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and the Russian Federation, on the other, with the earliest battles being fought in and around the city of Tshinvalli. Both parties have blamed the other for starting the war.

The number of refugees from South Ossetia fleeing into Russia reached an estimated 30,000 of the 70,000 overall population. Meanwhile by 18th August, about 100,000 ethnic Georgians had fled their homes due to the conflict,[29] with property reportedly having been looted.

A preliminary ceasefire was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. The Russian military has announced a ten-day withdrawal from advance positions, while Georgian authorities have expressed discontent with the rate and extent of the pull-back, and with the continuing Russian presence in port of Poti.

Western nations have largely condemned the Russian actions, while Russia has accused the West of double standards in the light of recent Balkan politics and NATO expansion in Eastern Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orthorhombic (talk • contribs) 15:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

US Govt now says Russia's first move legitimate

coming from US ambassador to Russia, this should be worked into the introduction

The U.S. ambassador to Moscow, in a rare U.S. comment endorsing Russia's initial moves in Georgia, described the Kremlin's first military response as legitimate after Russian troops came under attack.

GlobeMail

Anatoly.bourov (talk) 12:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is personal opinion of US envoy, not US government position. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, I see he is speaking on behalf of Washington. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a very important statement and it should be included in the article.
⇨ EconomistBR ⇦ 14:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It should be included in the article if US Govt. confirms translation's authenticity. The english summary on Kommersant's international website http://kommersant.com/p1014311/Beyrle_Georgia/ contains only the well-known phrases of the last days: Mr Beyrle emphasized that they had been always reiterating that the conflict couldn’t be resolved by force, persuading Georgia not to apply it till the very last moment. ... The ambassador avoided direct answer to the question about Washington’s idea of Russia’s adequate response to Georgia. Elysander (talk) 15:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good description from the article: "Georgian forces attacked South Ossetia, triggering a massive Russian reaction when its peacekeepers there came under fire." Can we use it without infringing on their copyright? Would someone like to take a stab at writing the introduction now, and the rest of us try to be nice about commenting on it? USchick (talk) 15:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as copyright, I think the rules are that one or two sentences are okay, even if taken verbatim.

The key statement quoted by Globe and Mail seems to only be present in the Russian language page of Kommersant "Мы видим, что российские войска вполне обоснованно ответили на нападение на миротворцев РФ в Южной Осетии." My translation would be "Russian forces responded in a reasonable fashion", not necessarily "legitimate". Too bad it's not clear if the interview was in Russian or English.

Nevermind, it appears the Russian version consists of actual quotes, while the English version is just a summary. Does US Govt routinely release official English versions of ambassador's interviews? Anatoly.bourov (talk) 16:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm .. i don't believe kommersant wouldn't miss such a journalistic coup on its English site if US ambassador's phrases were so conclusive as translated above. Elysander (talk) 16:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Kommersant interview is linked on the Dept of State site for Moscow_Embassy, meaning the Russian quote is likely correct. Whatever the final translation of "Мы видим, что российские войска вполне обоснованно ответили на нападение на миротворцев РФ в Южной Осетии." may be, it is clear that in this sentence Beyrle does not denounce the initial Russian action (italics mine). Which in itself is a major statement. Although it might be for Russian consumption only at this time, as the high level outpour of rhetoric on further development continues.

Reuters now reports the quote as "justified", saying "...ambassador to Moscow describes Kremlin's first military response as justified after Russian troops came under attack." (Reuters-Ynetnews ) Anatoly.bourov (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

globe and mail and ynetnews using an identical text btw the same source except a new composed subtitle text or better news summary in ynetnews where obviously legitimate and justified are used for the same Russian word. No progress at all. Elysander (talk) 20:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would say that вполне обоснованно means completely justified. (Igny (talk) 20:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Yes, I agree. Telling "вполне обоснованно" means an unconditional support of the actions by Russia. This is an incorrect translation from English to Russian.Biophys (talk) 20:49, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Biophys-- what do you mean "This is an incorrect translation from English to Russian."-- I think the ambassador gave his interview in Russian, no? We are now looking for the official translation into English, and barring that, an agreed upon translation into EnglishAnatoly.bourov (talk) 00:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ask US embassy in Moscow or State Department in Washington D.C. ... the only legitimate addresses for an official translation. Elysander (talk) 08:01, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's not how WP works, we work on what is verifiable and is published by reliable sources. --Russavia Dialogue Stalk me 11:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry! That's a question of authenticity ! If the interviewed person (an U.S. Govt. official) would say this above mentioned English-Russian-English translation is a misinterpretation or fake or was not authorized by him then the source/translation is without any value. Once more kommersant on its English website did not choose words/phrase in its interview summary that are identical or only similar with/to justified or legitimate. Very probably the interview was conducted in English. Maybe interesting is where is the origin of this translation but it is a secondary question. Elysander (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it the opinion of the members that Globe and Mail is a reliable source? It's been over 24 hours and neither the Dept of State nor US embassy to Russia has raised any objections. It appears the GnM report can be now treated as a source. Full Russian text of Kommersant interview including quote of interest is still linked on US embassy web page. Anatoly.bourov (talk) 14:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

International Crisis Group

http://www.crisisgroup.org/library/documents/europe/caucasus/195_russia_vs_georgia___the_fallout.pdf New report by the Crisis Group: a comprehensive history and analysis of the conflict. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 17:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks useless as they are supposed to prevent conflict(just like their motto states). Whatever they are doing right now, is out of their responsibility. 68.151.34.161 (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Civilian casualties

Currently, the article claims that:

A study of casualties over the period from August 8 until August 20 concluded that the precise count is 1,492 dead as the result of the bombing of Tskhinvali

the phrasing is clearly intended to convey it as a fact, and does not specifically say who did the counting; however, two references for that senses are not as clear-cut. AP:

Civilian casualties remain unclear. South Ossetian officials on Wednesday said 1,492 civilians in the breakaway province had been killed. The investigative committee of the Russian prosecutor general's office on Wednesday confirmed 133 civilian deaths in South Ossetia, but said it could not be sure of a complete figure because many victims had already been buried.

RIA Novosti:

"At a meeting of the emergency commission on dealing with the consequences of Georgia's act of aggression, it was announced that 1,492 people were killed in Georgia's attack on South Ossetia," spokeswoman Irina Gagloyeva said.

So the numbers come from South Ossetian sources, and there is no consensus on how truthful they are. Note that even Russians still only confirm 133 deaths. Considering all this, perhaps it is worth rephrasing the paragraph? -- int19h (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should only use statements by international human rights organizations and reliable news outlets like New York Times. Statements by combatant's media like RIA-News, a mouth peace of Russian government, are of zero credibility.Biophys (talk) 20:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And how is New York Times, mouth peace of US government, more reliable than RIA? More reliable to do what? Just curious. 68.151.34.161 (talk) 08:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What is a civilian ? What civilian casualities ? The Southossetian statistics seem still only estimations and not registrations. According Human Rights Watch Southossetian officials did count militias and volunteers as refugees and dead civilians.

We should wait til Southossetia clears its own definition of "Civilian".Elysander (talk) 11:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New articles about buffer zones?

Should we have new articles about South Ossetia buffer zone and Abkhazia buffer zone since these two areas are new reality on the ground? See: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/2008820143346769471.html 212.69.4.242 (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I understand we don't know now the extent of these zones and their legal status, so let's wait a bit. Alæxis¿question? 20:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, does anybody have a map of these buffer zones? 212.69.4.242 (talk) 20:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looks a little premature. If you want to create a new article, this could be War crimes in Georgia or Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Georgia like in article Ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia. But you have to register to create an article.Biophys (talk) 20:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think that somebody could be interested to read about false alegations for ethnic cleansing. Contrary to this, these buffer zones are new reality and the purpose of Wikipedia is to have articles about all existing things. And do not worry, I am registered, and I can use my Wiki account when I need to. 81.18.62.141 (talk) 14:40, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Putin's war, but no Putin to be found

Why do Putin supporters remove his name from the infobox and the rest of the article? Maybe Putin wants to work under cover? John McCain said something like this: I looked Putin in his eyes, and it said K G B... 213.50.111.114 (talk) 21:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any sources that Russian military are actually controlled by Putin rather than by Medvedev? Otherwise, your comment is hardly relevant. If you want to contribute constructively, please edit articles Putin, John McCain, or KGB. Biophys (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New introduction

I propose the following introduction based on known facts and refraining from any statements that are not facts. If you would like to comment, please read the previous posts discussing what constitutes a fact and what needs to be included. The introduction needs to be followed with a timeline of events. All informed opinions are welcome and valued, please be objective in your comments. Ok, here it is, let the (new) battle begin....

The 2008 South Ossetia War is a military conflict that started on August 7, in the South Caucasus region when Georgian forces attacked the city of Tskhinvali, triggering a massive reaction from Russia when its peacekeepers located there came under fire. Russian troops had military support from South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, two de-facto independent regions located within the country of Georgia. Both sides blamed each other for provoking the use of force and continued to use heavy military action in spite of repeated cease-fire claims.

The first battle took place in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, and resulted in major casualties as well as substantial damage to non-military targets. Civilian refugees attempting to flee from the conflict were not initially allowed safe passage out of the war zone, resulting in a humanitarian crisis. Major battles took place in South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and spread to Tbillisi, the Capital of Georgia, with Russian troops occupying the affected territory.

President-in-Office of the European Union, Nicolas Sarkozy, brokered a cease-fire on August 12 that was signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008. Both sides agreed to a six-point peace plan and to end the military hostilities. USchick (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose strongly. There are too many opinion statements that are not facts and too many weasel words and euphemisms. (1) It is not uncontroversial that it started on August 7; (2) Georgian attack targeted not only Tskhinvali; (3) What are the massive reaction, military support and so on? (4) What triggered the Russian reaction and whether it was a reaction or a pre-conceived plan is not a fact but an interpretation; (5) What does "when its peacekeepers located there came under fire" mean? If Russia reacted because of this, write because, not when, but it would be a controversial analysis, so don't include this at all. (5) [B]oth sides <...> continued to use heavy military action in spite of repeated cease-fire claims -- When? What ceasefire claims? As far as I know recently only Russian troops have been active and not the other side, and it would be wrong to mix up ceasefire claims from different periods; (6) The first battle took place in Tskhinvali -- and around it as well. (7) major casualties as well as substantial damage to non-military targets - what do the words major and substantial mean? Read WP:WEASEL. And the claim would be very contentious if it was made more precise. What the hell are "non-military targets"? It implies that they were targeted on purpose, far from a well-known fact. (7) Civilian refugees attempting to flee from the conflict were not initially allowed safe passage out of the war zone, resulting in a humanitarian crisis. - is this an uncontroversial fact? No, as far as I can tell. (8) Humanitarian crisis -- what doest this euphemism stand for? (9) Major battles took place in South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and spread to Tbillisi I have never heard of battles in Tbilisi. Moreover, what is a major battle? (10) six-point peace plan -- if you don't clarify them, who cares how many points there are? (10) and to end the military hostilities -- doesn't this follow from the very definition of the word ceasefire? Colchicum (talk) 00:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, the introduction should not be "controversial". It should briefly summarize most important and indisputable facts, as was correctly stated by USchick. Unfortunately, he could not do it.Biophys (talk) 04:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose No acknowledgment of any damage to Georgian homes or property here while Ossetian civilian losses described as "major" and "substantial". Thousands of Georgians are not being allowed to return to their homes, many of which were burned and/or looted anyway.Bdell555 (talk) 10:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • No offense taken, thanks for the comments. Would anyone like to introduce a different version? USchick (talk) 13:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Satellite Damage Assessment for Tskhinvali

A rather interesting piece of data from CERN: http://unosat.web.cern.ch/unosat/asp/prod_free.asp?pid=1246 Might come in handy as a reference in Damages/Humanitarian Impact sections. From the page:

An estimated total of 438 buildings within the mapped extent of Tskhinvali have been classified either as destroyed or severely damaged. An important preliminary finding of this satellite damage analysis is the observed heavy concentration of building damages within clearly defined residential areas.

Gleb (talk) 01:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But there is a question: who did destroy the buildings? That could be done by Georgian, Ossetian, or Russian forces...Biophys (talk) 03:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The map actually shows not only Tskhinvali, but also the area around it. Moreover, it says "Heaviest concentration of building damages in the town of Tamarasheni north of Tskhinvali, with a total of 177 affected buildings." On the map it looks completely destroyed. Given that Tamarasheni was a Georgian village, and there were no reports of Georgians trying to attack it at any point, it must have been destroyed by Russian/Ossetian forces. Since the map indicates the date of 19 August, my guess would be most of the damage was done after the active military phase, as Ossetians burned Georgian villages in an attempt to ethnically cleanse these territories (some details here [2]). Ergneti, another Georgian village shown on the map also looks heavily damaged. (PaC (talk) 04:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC))[reply]

I am not trying to make a point. The assessment contains factual data which can be incorporated into the second paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war#South_Ossetians, which currently references anecdotal sources. Something like:

According to a preliminary satellite damage assessment of Tskinvali carried out by United Nations UNOSAT program, "[a]n estimated total of 438 buildings . . . have been classified either as destroyed or severely damaged" with "observed heavy concentration of building damages within clearly defined residential areas".

Gleb (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reporters on the ground earlier noted that the greatest total destruction was in Georgian neighborhoods. This should be broken down accordingly if it is not to be misleading.Bdell555 (talk) 10:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison with Hitler

The Economist in its August 16th print issue, on p. 11 (see [3] online) writes: "Russia has made perfunctory attempts to justify the invasion. It claimed that it was defending Russian citizens. This excuse, as Sweden’s foreign minister tartly noted, recalled Hitler’s justifications of Nazi invasions." User:Mateat 2:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed before (please see archives of this talk page). Andrei Illarionov noted that such analogy is not entirely correct. Hitler's occupation was justified by the Munich Agreement signed by other countries. Unlike Hitler's occupation of Czechoslovakia or US invasion of Iraq, the invasion of Georgia by Russia was a completely unilateral action conducted without any consultations with other countries (S. Ossetia does not count since it was not recognized internationally) - according to him [4] Biophys (talk) 03:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of my comment was to include a link to a highly respected source (The Economist) quoting the foreign minister of a country (Sweden) with a long tradition of neutrality, and not to argue whether the analogy drawn with Hitler is appropriate. User:Mateat 4:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Then you do not need discussion. Just go ahead and include this in the article.Biophys (talk) 04:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Opinion of that guy is irrelevant no matter how respectable or neutral he is.(Igny (talk) 04:46, 23 August 2008 (UTC))[reply]
If you didn't know it Carl Bildt isn't just foreign minister of Sweden but also Chairman of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe. It explains why he went to Tbilisi during the war. So whether you like his opinions or not they are surely relevant here. Narking (talk) 06:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it is notable due to both the possitions he holds and his activity durring this conflict. (Hypnosadist) 13:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted interfax news "reconstructed" via google cache

Following news was publshed by interfax on August 5th , 2008 - and then obviously deleted in its newsarchive after August 11th. The news according google cache: http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:hP3H7LWp00MJ:www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx+http://www.interfax.com/3/416284/news.aspx&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de

11:06 GMT, Aug 05, 2008 Volunteers arriving in South Ossetia - president's envoy MOSCOW. Aug 5 (Interfax) - Volunteers are arriving in South Ossetia to offer help in the event of Georgian aggression, Dmitry Medoyev, a South Ossetian presidential envoy, has said. "Volunteers are arriving already, primarily from North Ossetia. Ossetians are one nation and one culture," Medoyev said at a news conference in Moscow on Tuesday. Russian regions in the North Caucasus, and Russian Cossacks have demonstrated readiness to support South Ossetia, he said. "We have received offers of help from the North Caucasus and from the Cossacks in southern Russia," Medoyev said. "But Tskhinvali will count on its own forces in the first instance. We have armed forces of our own," he said. A guerilla war will begin in the event of Georgian aggression against South Ossetia, and South Ossetia will launch a railway warfare against Georgia, Medoyev said. "We will watch how Georgia will manage to fulfill its oil transit obligations then," said Medoyev.

Elysander (talk) 08:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... in the early days of the Russia-Georgia war, there were several reports at gazeta.ru and lenta.ru about the big losses suffered by the Russians between Tchinvali and Dzhava. They were then deleted within a few hours. The FSB guys act quickly... --93.177.151.101 (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Use google cache for a search, but you need the original url's Elysander (talk) 08:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is definitely notable should be included in the article. Hobartimus (talk) 08:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Check history!! This notable information was already inserted in the article (maybe at a wrong place) but deleted by Igny as hearsay. :-)) Elysander (talk) 08:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Here's the original article in Russian. The news archive database of interfax.com seems to be much smaller. --Illythr (talk) 12:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the info!! A smaller database cannot be the reason because you can find several English written articles/news of 2007 and earlier by search. Elysander (talk) 12:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More of this story is at http://www.ogj.com/search/results.cfm?si=OGJ&collection=ogj&keywords=Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan&x=17&y=11 the oil and gas journal. (Hypnosadist) 13:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"massive looting" in Gori

User:Advokat has just removed the UN official's report of massive looting in Georgian settlements as an "unconfirmed information with a link to a non-existing page". This is a lie. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LH617289.htm the page is accessible and the article says:

"A United Nations aid convoy managed to enter Gori on Sunday, the first time U.N. organisations have reached the Georgian town since fighting started last week, and found signs of "massive looting". --93.177.151.101 (talk) 08:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Updates needed

Could someone please update occupation of Gori and raid on Poti? Thanks! —Nightstallion 09:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Number of Casulties

Russia states 65 dead russians, 121 wounded 8 tanks and 2 aircrafts lost. They state, 4000 ( of 2000 georgian soldiers who took part in the operations ) were killed.

Rocki tunnel, Georgian Battalion shot the whole ammunition at every russian tank that left :the tunnel, at least, 12 destroyed. ( crew: 48 dead ), before leaving

Kodori heights, georgian regiment held every position against 5 russo-abkhaz attacks before retreating back to Tbilisi. 584 abkhaz dead, 96 russian dead. 1 Grad destroyed, 12 armored vehicles destroyed ( crew: at least 24 dead )

Gurja, GRU elite special forces knocked out when engaged and ambushed by georgian :commandos Casulties: 45 of 80 russian dead, 2 georgian commandos.

Battle for 12 villages around Tskhinvali, heavy fights, high losses on both sides. Casulties: 125 georgian, 145 russian. ( Disadvantage for russian forces )

1st battle of Tskhinvali: Georgian artillery destroyed ossetian positions around the capitol, :200-1000 ossetian dead, Ossetian tanks and armor do not exist anymore. Georgian troops :enter the city, loosing 4 T-72 MBT's. Heavy fights in the city. 45 georgian dead 3 tanks lost, 300 ossetian dead 8 tanks given up, 18 :russian peacekeepers dead 150 wounded, retreat of Russo-Ossetian Forces.

2st battle of Tskhinvali: Russia advances against Tskhinvali, Georgian positions repell 7 attacks destroying 8 russian T-72 MBT's ( crew: 32 dead ) and killing 36 russians . Russian Air Force bombs armor and positions in Tskhinvali. 18 dead georgians. Georgia leaves Tskhinvali because of heavy bombardement and ceasefire agreement.

Russian Air Force 7 days bombardament kills 42 georgian soldiers and destroys up to 20 :tanks and armor in Georgia. Georgian Special Forces and Units shoot down 22 russian SU-24/SU-25/MiG-29 and one Tu-22 with Stingers and light AA systems. Heavy AA batteries ( like S-120 ) were never used in this 7 days.

Battle of Gori: 1000 russian airborne troops try to take Gori by surpirse attack from sky. Operation failed. Number of Casulties unknown, Georgians still controlled the city. Russian armor advances from Tskhinvali to Gori. Georgian troops leave the city to show the rest of :the world, what are the true interests of Putin. Taking over whole Caucasia.

During the ceasefire agreement a convoy of georgian soldiers and special units were :ambushed by russian tanks and armors, leaving 18 dead georgians and 3 destroyed georgian :Toyota SF jeeps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL (talk • contribs) 11:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ehm, and what are the sources you used? Alæxis¿question? 11:07, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, as of now, no sources are available for such details. But what ComanL wrote here largely coincides with my own sources among the Georgian military and Russian journalists. There are some other things I would like to add to the description of the Russia-Georgia war, but I can not obviously provide published sources. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 11:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above estimate of 444 (assuming all downed Russian pilots as well as the "1000 airborne troops over Gori" survived) exceeds the official Georgian estimate of 400, so a source would be most interesting to see. It would also be nice to trace the Russian claim of 4000 Georgian casualties to a Russian source. --Illythr (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7570949.stm
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