Talk:Information

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Antiquity – Jan 2006

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Introduction

JA: I ran into some problesm in trying to dis-equivocate a number of the terms in the first paragraph. Somebody redirected mental stimulus to cognition, which is too broad for what's intended there -- rather than list the whole panoply from sensation to perception to cognition, I just took a sample out of the middle, and dabbed to stimulation to cover the raw stimulus aspect, for now. And representation gives a disambig page, the closest of which items would ordinarily be knowledge representation, but that page as currently written is a bit too specific to library science. I will work on a more generic representation article as a separate issue. Jon Awbrey 14:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The controversial claims of Roy Frieden

I am concerned about edits related to the controversial claims of B. Roy Frieden (Prof. Em. of Optical Sciences at the University of Arizona). As an anon, he has edited this and other articles as the data.optics.arizona.edu anon:

1. 150.135.248.180 (talk · contribs)
   1. 16 June 2006 states controversial claims as established fact in Extreme physical information
   2. 16 June 2006 adds "Physics actually derives out of information, through the principle of Extreme physical information " to Information.
   3. 6 June 2006: adds cites of his papers to Extreme physical information
   4. 23 May 2006 adds uncritical description of his own work in Lagrangian and uncritically cites his own controversial book
   5. 20 May 2005 confesses IRL identity
   6. 22 October 2004 attributes the uncertainty principle to the Cramer-Rao inequality, which is potentially misleading
   7. 21 October 2004 adds uncritical mention of his controversial claim that the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution can be obtained via his "method"
   8. 21 October 2004 adds uncritical mention of his controversial claim that the Klein-Gordon equation can be "derived" via his "method"
2. 150.135.248.126 (talk · contribs)
   1. 9 September 2004 adds uncritical description of his work to Fisher information
   2. 8 September 2004 adds uncritical description of his highly dubious claim that EPI is a general approach to physics to Physical information
   3. 16 August 2004 confesses IRL identity
   4. 13 August 2004 creates uncritical account of his work in new article, Extreme physical information
   5. 11 August 2004 creates his own wikibiostub, B Roy Frieden

It is important that mention of Frieden's work in the WP clarify that his claims are by no means universally accepted by his peers. I am very disturbed that he is stating his claims as established fact, when they are actually by no means universally accepted:

• Binder, Philippe M. (2000). "Physics from Fisher Information: A Unification (a review)". American Journal of Physics. 68: 1064–1065. (favorable)
• Kibble, T. W. B. (1999). "Physics from Fisher Information: A Unification (a review)". Contemporary Physics. 40: 1999. (the reviewer has some positive comments but concludes that Frieden's work is "misguided")
• Case, James (2000). "An Unexpected Union---Physics and Fisher Information". SIAM News. July 17. eprint (highly favorable)
• Matthews, Robert (1999). "Physics and Fisher Information (a review)". New Scientist. January. unauthorized electronic reprint
• Physics from Fisher Information: A Unification (a review) from Cosma Shalizi (Computer Science, University of Michigan) (highly critical)
• Physics from Fisher Information (a review) from R. F. Streater (Mathematics, Kings College, London) (highly critical)
• Physics from Fisher Information thread from sci.physics.research, May 1999 (mostly critical)
• Fisher Information - Frieden unification Of Physics thread from sci.physics.research, October 1999 (mostly critical)

---CH 07:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Comments

In the section "Information as a message", the second paragraph states the following,

...in requiring the existence of a definite sender, the "information as a message" model does not attach any significance to the idea that information is something that can be extracted from an environment, e.g., through observation, reading or measurement.

This statement is misleading in its implication of a "sender" as being separate from the environment. The concept of a "sender" or "source" has no specification to who or what is sending or supplying information. Therefore, the implication of the above statement is unjustified and thus leads to an inconsistency. This statement should either be clarified or revised. JAT, 30 July 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.227.13.162 (talk • contribs) 21:04, July 30, 2006 (UTC)

This image is no good?

Sorry, I thought that this was a novel idea for an image for the "information," article? I added it and somebody reverted it. If the general consensus is that it's a bad idea, I'll have the iamge deleted, but I thought I'd just ask, as I think articles without images are ugly. Robocracy 06:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

File:Wikipediainbinary.jpg

The word "Wikipedia" in binary, the form most commonly used for storing computer information.

What does 'The word, "Wikipedia", in binary' mean? I'm guessing that it's the binary representation of the ASCII codes for "Wikipedia", but it makes no sense as it is (and I don't think that the commas belong there either). --66.81.125.112 21:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

In addition to agreeing with the previous comment, the gradient is a little annoying. Understandably, one would like to have a little stylistic flair, but the rendering in this image clearly draws too much attention to itself and merits at least a change to be a little more subdued. dr.ef.tymac 16:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

i came to this talk page precisely to see if there was a discussion on the picture, as i am not in favor of it being here. I looked at the article's contents to see if it could be moved down from the top of the page, but couldn't find any suitable spot. So, i say: remove. --Jerome Potts (talk) 23:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Standard definition of Information from ISO

From ISO TR-9007 from 1983 and 1986

Definition of Information: Any kind of knowledge about things, facts, concepts, etc. of a universe of dis-course that is exchangable among users. Although exchangable information necessarily will have a representation form to make it communicable, it is the interpretation of this representa-tion (the meaning ) that is relevant in the first place.

I do not see this definition on this page and would like to introduce it.

Steven van 't Veld

Steven.van.t.Veld@aim.nl —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.61.45.38 (talk) 00:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

I would go further back to look for a definition... "Information is the minimum required by the user to make a decision, it is the result of a structured query on data" One mans data is another mans information and vice versa, data is produced constantly but it is in the user and the questions the user asks that it becomes information... 87.102.44.114 02:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

This is not definition, it is just handwaving. ISO, a body of engineers, is incompetent in such a basic scientific topic as the definition of information. Information should be rigorously defined by the SI comitte, either as an abstract construct, like the seconds of time derive from the speed of light or as an artifact, like the platinum master kilogramm kept under glass cage in Paris.

As long as you fail to show me the SI "master etalon" of information, I dare to say infomation does not exist per se or maybe it is just our cloudly commodity perception of multiple phenomena, which we cannot yet differentiate due to the weakness of human senses. 91.83.17.127 (talk) 22:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. If that first really is an ISO defintion, and it's sourced, it should be in the article. If it's just commentary on some other topic, it probably shouldn't be in the article. I'd need to look at the reference to be sure. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 06:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Major Cleanup

I see quite a few problems with this article, quick example:

If you accept that information can be defined merely as a pattern, does it not follow that neither utility nor meaning are necessary components of information? Surely a distinction must be made between raw unprocessed data and information which possesses utility, value or some quantum of meaning. Information may indeed be characterised as a pattern; it is a necessary condition, but not sufficient.

The first part has a triple negative and makes no sense. That aside, information as a pattern has nothing to do with utility. Information doesn't require utility. Also, what is "a quantum of meaning" anyway?

Information can be a tough article, but we can do it. 76.23.14.222 08:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

To me it appears that information more than merely a pattern. Wshen we write "Tree" the writing is merely a pattern. The pattern will differ for different laguages but the information is the same.Obviously a code of translation is required for converting a pattern into information. Ultimately information can only reside as pattern (coupled with a translation code) in the four dimentional wosrld we know of. Where exactly information resides is a mystery. (ambi 15:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC))induvasan

Unreferenced article

This article appears to be based on an unreferenced entry by User: Tomos at 12:01, 22 March 2003. [1]

It is still unreferenced! Please discuss.

--Andrewrutherford 13:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

New article request

Hi there, I'd like to suggest a new article on the full history of information handling/management/techonology (details). I'm not knowledgeable enough to do it myself, but contributors here probably are. Thanks, JackyR | Talk 18:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

information precision

information precision should be defined in this article. I hope that someone can do so. Jackzhp (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to add a definition that information is work done on matter by energy. Examples abound in biochemistry. Anabolic chemical reaction require energy to build complex molecule (like protein enzymes from amino acids). Enzyme systems are thus built up during growth and development. These systems contain large amounts of information that provide function. During atrophy or severe illness, these molecules and information can be broken down, releasing energy for heat or use by ATP systems. The thermodynamis (calories in/calories out) have been well worked out. To argue that this information is work is thus supported by thermodynamic consideration.

The rejection of this addition on grounds that it sounds like intelligent design failed to understand this biochemistry as science (verifiable by empiric methods) and instead supposed it is religous in nature. I have no such intent. I consider the formation of matter into shapes and functions that provide information part of natural (not supernatural) evolution. Khobler (talk) 02:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We need a source for the information that that particular structuring is called information, as it's not quite the same as other definitions. I am sorry about the Intelligent Design reference, but the concept of "conservation of information" applied to irreducible complexity is exactly the ID argument.

Also, what you wrote seems confused as to whether the "information" is complexity or energy density. It is not necessarily the case that more complex structures have more stored energy. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Apology accepted...I see your point. I'll have to dig up a reference for Ludwig Boltzmann's often quoted statement that entropy is the opposite of information. I am suggesting a definition of information in the physcical universe as properties (color, shape, etc.,) and functions evident from various formations of matter shaped by energy (Big Bang and since). Some of this will have meaning and usefullness to humans, but that is irrelevant to the idea that this information and function is in the physical world. In that sense, complexity can be related to information as implied by Boltzmann. Khobler (talk) 13:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Bias and/or lack of sources in "Information as an influence which leads to a transformation"

Some people argue that the fact that DNA records meaningful information means life must have come about because of a conscious mind, the exact opposite statement of what this article says