Talk:Metatron

Etymology

Metatron? Are we sure that this is not some Japanese robot? :-) At18 22:37, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Yeah. When I heard it in Dogma, I found the name very unfitting, like Panasonic or something. Is there some Hebrew etimology for it? -- Error 00:57, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The OED just says it's from post-biblical Hebrew. The japanese robot joke has actually been done in Good Omens:

"The Voice of God. The Metatron."

"No, it isn't. The Metatron's made of plastic and it's got laser cannon and it can turn into a helicopter."

"That's the Cosmic Megatron. I had one, but the head fell off."

-- DrBob 01:06, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Metatron is a hebrew contraction - metat (up) tron (down). Up-down, i.e. the mediator/go-between between our world and the spiritual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.131.73.197 (talk) 01:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Metatron is Greek roughly meaning "high instrument"; Metatron is both a higher order of being (an angel -- one who transcends mortals) and an instrument of God, particularly of God's Voice. User:Alcarillo 15:00 19 Apr 04 utc

Two other theories: 1. Metatron is from the Greek meta tronos, "beside/beyond the throne" of God, referring to the angel's station. 2. The name is from the Latin metator, "guide." Michael Sidlofsky 15:44, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But the inclusion of the name in these qabbalic writings would suggest that the name is of hebrew origin, and not, as contemplated above, latin or greek. --Tokle 12:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I will not speculate on that. I'm sure there is a Hebrew etymology of Metatron somewhere, but I can't remember where I saw that. JFW | T@lk 21:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I found two hebrew words Metatron could possibly derive from; Matara, which means "keeper of the watch" and the qabbalistic term metator, which means "guide or messenger"--Tokle 12:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It appears that your discussion on the etymology of names of Metatron is lifted from Andrei A. Orlov, The Enoch-Metatron Tradition (TSAJ, 107; Tuebingen: Mohr-Siebeck, 2005) 92-97. Thre are even similar expressions. Yet this this book is not mentioned on the page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Enochmetatron (talk • contribs) 22:49, 26 November 2006.

Your quite right The Enoch-Metatron Tradition is used because it gives a great overview of the whole etymology. Its drawing together of Enoch and Metatron together is really interesting too. It should be listed on here as an external link but I can't find it. Ill add a standard reference until someone can find out where I downloaded my copy from :o I don't like the term lifted btw as its not a direct copy from the book by any means although I can't deny they would be pretty similar as I used it as a basis for the content. -- Shimirel ^(Talk) 16:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The article said that "tron" was Greek for "matrix", but there's nothing in Liddell and Scott to justify that. As far as I can tell, Hesychius of Alexandria defines trona as some kind of delight (in the flowery flow?), and tronoi means warp, cord, spindle. Then as mentioned above, thronos means chair, seat, throne, which could make sense, especially in view of the story about Elisha ben Abuyah. None of the words with "matrix" or "womb" in their definition is anything like "tron". So I took it out.

The closest I found to "high instrument" is that ankistron is a surgical instrument, metron is a measuring instrument, theratron an instrument of the chase such as a net or trap, plektron an instrument for striking the lyre (plectrum), and phimotron an instrument for stopping up. Maybe Alcarillo is thinking that there's a suffix tron meaning "instrument"? There could be for all I know, but most of the words for different kinds of instruments have other endings.

The parts about Enoch, including the bit about two Metatrons, could use sources. —JerryFriedman 01:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

tron is taken from the greek word Trutänh balance, pair of scales according to the oxford english dictionary. It dates back to 1290 and you can see it being used as an instrument in markets for weighing. Its used in 1526 (rare use) to mean throne and in 1939 (and others) to mean either an instrument in general or a particle, its described as a Greek instrumental suffix. Matrix seems to originate from a latin word originally meaning a pregnant animal and later a womb going back to 1526. Meta seems to be a Greek and Latin prefix meaning sharing, action in common, pursuit or quest; and especially change. As was mentioned previously there is very little on the origin of Metatron in the OED. The oldest mentioned in my copy of OED is "1865 C. D. Ginsburg Kabbalah 27 The Kabbalistic description of Metatron is taken from the Jewish angelology of a much older date than this theosophy. Metatron is the Presence Angel the visible manifestation of the deity." Two other intresting items are "1941 G. G. Scholem Major trends Jewish Mysticism II 66 The metatron mysticism which revolves round the person of Enoch who was raised to the rank of first of the angels." "1959 D. D. Runes Conc. Dict. Judaism 168/2 Metatron the highest of the angel[s], identified with the archangel Michael, or Enoch who was transformed into a heavenly being; a mystic figure." Thats what I've found hope it's of intrest, you gotta love the OED. -- Shimirel ^(Talk) 14:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I do love the OED.

Is it telling us that there's an English suffix "-tron" from τρυτανή (trutanê, and I'm just hoping I got that right)? That there's an ancient Greek suffix "-tron"? I didn't quite follow what you said. Maybe I should get myself to where there's a big OED. —JerryFriedman 23:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Alexander, cited in the article, likes the Latin and Greek etymologies (metator, meta thronos, and meta turannos, next to the ruler). You gotta love Amazon book search. —JerryFriedman 01:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah it is kind of confusing because theres umpteen different listings for tron.

1. tron(e weight) / tron / trone - the standard of weight used at the tron.

2. tron(e-pound) - the pound of tron weight 21-28 ounces.

3. tron(e-stone) - a stone of tron weight.

4. tron- meaning enthronement only used in one book (rare) according to mey OED the full word was 'tronizacyon'.

5. tron as a noun (or trone) is taken from the greek word Trutänh balance, pair of scales and is used in this sence quite extensively (1290 - 1861).

6. -tron is described as a greek instumental suffix but used in different places as a suffix in physics for particles (negatron, mesotron) or names of machines in physics (cyclotron, levitron).

another rare use is to mean throne. As I said quite a few versions hope that helps; fyi I looked up metator its listed on OED as setting in order. The OED is a great buy if a bit pricey I bought this cd of it years back and its supperb if a bit out of date now. It just about runs on windows xp lol. -- Shimirel ^(Talk) 09:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest to the moderators of this entry to add this link to the scholarly article on the etymologies of the name Metatron : http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/metatronname --Enochmetatron (talk) 02:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Revelation through Metatron

"Metatron is over de ministering angels. It is written, the great prince is over all the princes and over all the angels ministering."

"Metatron speaks in a great sound and small silence"

From the "Zeh Hethepheleh tzeriek lomer bekovoneh gedoleh" (the prayer required to establish greatness) book four, part three, of the "Sepher Rezial Hemelach" as translated by Steve Savedow.

It also tells that Metatron spoke to Moses through the burning bush. --Tokle 16:19, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the Talmud (tractate Sanhedrin) suggests that the Jews were offered revelation through Metatron but rejected this. JFW | T@lk 16:44, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I suggest to the moderators of this entry to add this link to the scholarly article on Metatron's role as the Mediator who reveals Torah to Moses : http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/metatronmediator --Enochmetatron (talk) 02:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Metatron's Cube

Anybody have a source for this 'metatron's cube' thing? Just saying that it's a 'kabbalistic tradition' is about as helpful as saying 'well, it's probably something to do with Judaism'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.131.73.197 (talk) 01:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

This may help: Metatron's Cube is related to the Hypercube. According to Aryeh Kaplan's commentary on the Kaballistic work the Sepher Yetzirah the Hypercube represents God's and our existence in five-dimensional space, the dimensions being the three that we know, Time and the Spiritual. Metatron's Cube seems to go one step further. I'm afraid I can't help you any more. What I want to know is what is the significance of Metatron's Cube? It obviously means something important but what? ThePeg 20:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Endless list of other uses

The list of popular cultural references about Metatron is growing and growing. Do we really need this? Can we not do with the 3-4 most famous examples? JFW | T@lk 3 July 2005 10:02 (UTC)

... Well not until someone adds the final boss in the Spawn Gamecube game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.245.29.229 (talk) 04:05, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, I'm wondering about the provenance of the "Nortatem" move. it could be true, but it doesn't seem to fit. my guess would be it's more likely a mistake for Mortatem, which would be some form of the latin word for death. - Orion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.137.201 (talk) 02:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I removed the statement that Megatron's name is derived from Metatron because I could find no evidence that this was true; also, given Megatron's nature, the etymology of his name seems pretty obvious. Taurrandir 05:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Torah

The article lists the Torah and the Old Testament as the same thing. This is not the case. The Hebrew word for the Old Testament is the Tanach. The Torah is only the first part of this.

{{sofixit}}. JFW | T@lk 07:21, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

The TANAKH is made up of three books:

1)The Torah,the "five books of Moses", which are the first five books of the Old Testament(Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers&Deuteronomy). 2)Nevi'im (The Prophets) 2)Kethuvim(The Writings)

I suggest to the moderators of this entry to add this link to the scholarly article on Metatron's role as the Prince of Torah : http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/metatronsartorah --Enochmetatron (talk) 02:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Metatron = Seraph?

In Dogma, Metatron identifies himself as a Seraph (or, "a Seraphim", as it actually says in the movie). Is this verifiable in the mythology? If so, it needs to be in the article. SpectrumDT 20:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Since the real meaning of Metatron remains unfold in the time, there are only one thing clear :Metatron is the more powerful being with the exception of the Creator, so the description fit better with Satan. But since Satan was (or is?) a seraph, so Metatron can be a seraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.112.11.93 (talk) 01:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Images

What happened to the images that used to be on this page? --Tydaj 16:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Look up the articles history, and who editted them out.Kairos 09:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

List of other names

Someone has been messing with the list of names for Metratron. How else can I explain the presence of "Winniethepooh" and "Stinkybutt" on it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.214.229.59 (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Be bold and remove vandalism. :) --Thisisbossi 04:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

how? Kairos 09:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Origin

The article states that Metatron does not appear in the scriptures. So where does he come from? Yeah, the article says there's no consensus on his genesis, but what about including some material on some of the most prominent theories by scholars? Nightscream 04:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to add existing research in, so long as it's not Original Research.Kairos 09:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Archangel Michael

The article about Michael states that rabbinic tradition declare that Michael visited Abraham ,Isaac and Jacob on several occasions. He is also considered the teacher of Moses and is the one who buried Moses. In the Kabbala he is the advocate of Jews. So my question is: Is michael and metatron the same angel? or they just happen to be at the same places at the same time? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.84.52 (talk) 12:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Origins

I miss some datas about their origins about Sumer or more later about babylonics, and talking about the hebrew origins (about 500-1000 years later). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.112.11.93 (talk) 01:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure of what you are attempting to say. If you wish to add new information or return removed information, be bold! --Thisisbossi 04:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

To Do List

I think it would be useful to list the things that need to be done with this article so that the "cleanup" tag can be legitimately removed? Suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zahakiel (talk • contribs) 03:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Attention: Please arrange the article on Metatron. It has to be re-edited in an WP:NPOV manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.106.233.102 (talk) 00:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

References

There's seem to be many good citations, but unfortunaley they are not added at the bottom or compiled into notes. Would somebody care to do that? I added my reference. Xuchilbara 02:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction was sufficient, in my opinion, when it granted Metatron's precise place in the heavenly hierarchy "no consensus." Most of the new introductory material already is contained in the article where appropriate. What's new is the identification of Greater (?) Metatron with the first sephirah, which—although logical and given a reference—does not seem consistant with traditional kabbalah.

To avoid the kabbalah/qabbala/cabala disputes that have disturbed other articles, and to limit repetition of information, I will restore the older version of the introduction. Maybe we can have a section within the body of the article discussing Metatron's position among the sephiroth and/or the angels. —Hanina 10:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The intro needs something. It doesn't say much on Metatron at all and is very lacking. I'm going to look through my books and see if I can with something more significant and citable.

Xuchilbara 21:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's get rid of the disambiguation page

The page Metatron (disambiguation) is pretty small and useless. I suggest that we get rid of it and merge it into this one. Most of it can be done with a "Metatron in popular culture" section. SpectrumDT 19:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Some of those items already exist in this article, anyway. --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 02:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, exactly as suggested. Fayenatic london (talk) 18:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Tranformers reference

"In the Transformers Universe, Decepticon leader Megatron is a biblical allusion to the figure Metatron." There is absolutely no data that supports the notion that Metatron has anything to do with Megatron. Removed. Aeligature 04:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

More Etymology

I'm afraid my citation inside of rapapports theory is partially incorrect. I couldn't figure out how to transliterate the word properly since I'm not good at greek. Any idea of what sounds like thon and means to change and pass on. I can try to place the greek letters in the article but I don't have the book here now. Wolf2191 01:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

External links

Could someone tell me what it is that these links add?

• Reniyah Wolf's website
• A channeled message from Laurie Gilmore
• Dal sito "Inner Light-Workers"

I think all 3 should be removed, but I'd like the input of others here before I do it. --OnoremDil 11:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thoroughly concur that they should be removed. Ahwa85 07:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC) 07:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I am all for it and had actually been planning to do a little link trimming myself, once I found the time. --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 11:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

IMMO the first two links are possibly relevant for those who feel and see Metatron as an active force inspiring love and light, not only through some ancient and honored traditions, but also in our actual world. I think that the channeled messages in these website are of a very high level, and can lead to a better understanding of this entire subject. I will get them here again, hope we can have a sufficiently large views for them to stay here. Gco 18:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Possible Dr Who reference

In the episode Dalek (Doctor Who episode), the dalek was given the name "Metaltron". Dunno whether this is significant. --75.177.3.50 23:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Metatron in Islamic sources

Contrary to what was stated that there are no Islamic sources mentioning Metatron, there is a long angelological oeuvre tradition within specifically the Islamic occult and esoteric tradition which explicitly mentions Metatron. Ahmad al-Buni mentions the Archangel in his Great Sun of Gnoses (shams al-ma'arif al-kubra) as does the great Andalusian Master Ibn Arabi in his Book of the Spiritual Conquests of Mecca (futuhat al-makkiya). Metatron is referred to, inter alia, as both Metatron as well as malik al-nun (archangel of the letter 'n') whereby the first verse of the sixty-eighth chapter of the Koran is said by these occultist-esotericsts to refer to it. Ahwa85 03:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Metatron as the Shekinah

I am not sure if is at all correct to refer to Metatron as a 'he' since the Archangel is held by several important kabbalistic texts, including the Zohar, as being the Supreme Theophany of the Shekinah, who is female. Note also that there are two positions of Metatron in the etz ha-chaim (the Tree of Life), one in Malkut the other in Keter. Metatron in Keter is the Shekinah. Metatron in Malkut is what the Prophet Enoch ascended to. Ahwa85 03:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Where'd you get this? I've been studying Qabbalah for the past few years, and I've never heard of any connection of Metatron with the Shekhinah. Everything I've read has identified the Shekhinah with Malkhuth. Hiergargo 22:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

You've never heard of the connection of the Shekinah with Metatron and you've studied Kabbalah for several years!? Every major kabbalistic text that deals with angelology that I know of glosses it, including the Soncino Press (partial) translation of the Book of Splendor (Zohar). Also there are two theophanies of Metatron: One in the first sphere and the last one in the tenth. This is why you have two spellings of Metatron in Hebrew. One with six letters and the other with seven letters. The six letter spelling is Metatron of Malkut. The seven letter spelling is Metatron (or Metattron) in Keter. Look it up if you don't believe me! Ahwa85 09:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

http://www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/rev4f.htm Ahwa85 03:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because the Shekhina represents the female principle (whatever that means; and it probably does not mean woman in the biological sense) or just because it is grammatically a feminine word, does not make anything associated with it (possibly) also a "she". For one, take a look at the Targum Yonathan in Genesis when the passage with Enoch is translated. There he refers to the transformation into Mitatron, the "Safra Rabba" (great scribe). It is always kept grammatically male.

Now--here's the main point. Just because two ideas may be linked, it does not mean that they must have the same grammatical gender (that is ALL we are talking about--this is not a place to score feminist points; this is not a conversation about females humans). I would be hard-pressed to find even one instance where the name "Metatron" is used in a sentence with a feminie grammatical construct. That being the case...we're done.

Another example of this would be Gevura. Let us say....for argument's sake...that I want to compare Gevura to Din and Chesed to Rachamim (in fact, however, they ARE NOT!!! the same). Now would I have to turn hebrew grammar inside out to make gevura and din the same GRAMMATICAL gender? 70.107.145.220 (talk) 04:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)SMORR

You got to be kidding me

This is so not actual theology or mythology. It's just some crazy load of bull invented by the new cult crazies like LaVey and the always funny Aleister Crowley.