Talk:State-sponsored terrorism

This Article is Worthless =

Wikipeida needs a new category that flags articles as worthless. This one could cut its entire list of countries, which is both incomplete and inaccurate, and not suffer. Belgium as a state sponsor of terror? That's inane. Gaintes (talk) 16:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian authority

The Palestinians aren't really part of a state (except maybe Israel, but that's streching it). Thus the "Palestinian authority" isn't a state like Afghanistan or the United Kingdom. It should be moved elsewhere.Vice regent 20:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I removed the following from the article per my comments above (and because it is completely unsourced).Vice regent 14:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The Palestinian Authority has sponsored terrorism against Israel. Yasser Arafat's Fatah made an alliance with Hamas and Islamic Jihad and it contnued until the civil war, which was really a power struggle. Though, they made a unity government and had some clashes with the Hamas parliment. The Palestinian Authority has encouraged terrorism against Israel to destroy the state of Israel. Some groups that are part of and commanded by the rest of fatah such as al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were established in the second intifada and committed suicide bombings against Israeli civilians and have fought Israeli soldiers. Arafat, while he was president of the Palestinan Authority, was seen on PA TV publicly encouraging a jihad against Israel. But unlike al-Qaeda wich is commonly considered terrorist many muslims and muslim nations don't see these organisations as terrorist but as legitimate recistance.

Weasel List

I belive the purpose of this list is to educate people about state-sponsired terrorism, not to make political statements. The Middle East is obviously home to many examples. On the other hand, the list shouldn't include such fallacies as the UK being indentified by Iran. It should be obvious that Iran uses this to retaliate against Europe and America. Therefore, the nations of France, the UK, and the US should be removed, since they are being accused of these crimes by the terrorist states themselves. What good is our list if we equally punish France with Iran, when France is a free, democratic country, and Iran is a dictatorship that does not respect human rights. Please discuss, (209.7.171.66 22:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC))

The sections you removed were sourced properly and meets our policies WP:V and WP:RS. Removing them was against our policy on WP:NPOV. Having these countries on this list is firstly, not a weasel list, secondly, does not constitute a political statement. nat ^{Alo! Salut! Sunt eu, un haiduc?!?!} 22:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

My dear Canadian friend. I believe it is a weasel list. Please understand that nations which are regarded by the international community as supporters of terrorism, do NOT have the same credibility to accuse free, democratic nations of the same crime. If I call you a name, you cannot call me back one just because I did it. It must be supported by evidence. Iran is a terrorist-sponsoring nation. It may accuse the UK or the US of the same crime to retaliate, but the Wikipedia community should realize how foolish it is, and thus, disregard it. I hope you understand my logic. Let me know what you think. (209.7.171.66 22:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC))

Here at Wikipedia, we treat all states, nations and countries on the same level no matter what they have or haven't done. That means if it is notable and it is sourced, we added it. One being democratic and the other one not, does not give the democratic nation precedence over the other. nat ^{Alo! Salut! Sunt eu, un haiduc?!?!} 23:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Besides that, France has more or less admitted to sponsoring terrorism in this specific instance. They called it terrorism when it happened and they latter admitted they were involved in planning it. If anything, France is probably the worst example anon could use since they are oen of the only ones who beyond any shred of doubt should be on this list even if what they did may seem minor to many of the other accusations Nil Einne (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Controversial Statements

This article contains a number of controversial, unreferenced statements. The way to address these is to add citations or to remove these statements - simply removing the {{fact}} tags that highlight WP:V issues is NOT the way forward Socrates2008 (talk) 11:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Alleged South African Sponsorship of Loyalist paramilitaries

The citation added this to support this allegation mentions a poor attempt by the South Africans to procure missile technology from the Loyalists (not the other way round).

"When three Loyalists were arrested in Paris in April 1989 in the company of a South African diplomat, in the subsequent court case the French judge treated the Loyalists leniently. He did so because what they had been handing over to the diplomat was just a display model of a Shorts missile and not anything that could have been of any value to the South African military."

So this citation contradicts, rather than supports the statement in the article that "In the 1980s, the apartheid regime was alleged to have supplied arms to loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland such as the Ulster Defence Association and Ulster Volunteer Force" Socrates2008 (talk) 13:00, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

You're missing the actual section that the citation supports:

"I had been deliberately targeted by an agent of South African Military Intelligence. This agent had somehow got hold of the security-force file about Mr X and then changed the details, inserting my name and address. He had then shown the file to the Loyalists."

     GiollaUidir (talk) 18:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

No, haven't missed it. That link you've mentioned does not mention or substantiate arms sales by South Africa. Please find a reliable source that backs up the sale of arms by South Africa to the Loyalists or the unsubstantiated statement to that effect in the article may be removed.

Please do not make further edits until this has been resolved. Socrates2008 (talk) 23:10, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The second ref link is being a bit dodgy but the page is cached here. Quote: "During this period, Nelson also travelled to South Africa at the behest of McMichael, to procure arms for the UDA. He was central to securing weapons in January 1988 including 200 AK47 assault rifles, 90 Browning pistols, 500 fragmentation grenades, 30,000 rounds of ammunition and 12 RPG 7 rocket launchers.

Divided out among the UDA, UVF and Ulster Resistance, the weapons helped to fuel a loyalist murder campaignfrom1988 to1994in which more than 200 people died.The deal with SouthAfrican agents was known to Nelson's handlers and is thought to have been cleared by at least one unnamed British government minister. "

Regards, GiollaUidir (talk) 19:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I don't see why you regard adding references to a section as being "controversial edits". While I appreciate that you are probably editing in good faith your removal of references that support the material is starting to get irritating. I suggest you read the FULL source before removing it in future. Regards, GiollaUidir (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The reference did not support the statement - simple as that. Your citation was about an alleged assassination plot and attempt by SA to procure rocket technology and would therefore support a statement about SA buying, not supplying arms. You can't make a claim, then back it up with an contradictory citation. I raised this issue here on the talk page specifically so that you could have the opportunity to resolve it. This is a controversial article, so reliable and verifiable references are required, even if you may find this "irritating". Socrates2008 (Talk) 21:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree strongly with Socrates2008 and I have reverted the addition by GiollaUidir. The one reference does not work and the other does not support of even mention the supply of arms by any party. --Deon Steyn (talk) 09:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

South Africa

I have once again had to correct this section. I would remind User:Phase4 to refrain from adding POV content. The references to the South African Border War or political assassinations fall outside of the definition of terrorism or state sponsored terrorism. None of these activities targeted "non-combatants". --Deon Steyn (talk) 09:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I in turn have had to correct Deon's edits. Hopefully we can now put these issues to bed.Phase4 (talk) 20:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Phase4 is a POV alias of Patrick Haseldine

Phase4 is an alias of Patrick Haseldine is for making POV edits non attributable to him. Please see the talk page Socrates2008 (Talk) 02:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

POV and Patrick Haseldine

I have removed a bad case of POI, namely "Conspiracy theorist Patrick Haseldine" This is opinion. I have changed it to fact, which is he was a diplomat.

That term was there because he is the chief proponent of an unproven conspiracy theory about South African involvment in the Lockerbie bombing. Furthermore, his edit of his own biography suggests that he himself is happy with this term. Socrates2008 (Talk) 01:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Labelling somone a conspiracy theorist is certainly POV:- it is a pejorative term used it discredit the theories expressed by that individual (and I'm not expressing support for SA involvment.) In contrast his position as a diplomat is fact. The link you gave in no way proves Patrick Haseldine is happy to be labelled a conspiracy theorist. All it shows is that someone who registered as PJHaseldine, and linked himself to this article, did not change the description. This is not support as anyone could claim on Wikipedia to be him, and it is policy that Wikipedia is not used as its own reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.217.219 (talk) 21:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion continued here Socrates2008 (Talk) 10:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Fact tags and deletions

I'm familiar with most of the facts on this article, and will start to work to add references to support the claims. So please do not make any further deletions. One section on Chile about Operation Condor that user Raggz deleted as "OR," is actually not OR but well known, and there are many good sources to support the claim. So I'll restore that bit and expand on it with a source. An excellent source I have the supports the claims is from the journal Social Justice. Article Title: Operation Condor: Clandestine Inter-American System by J. Patrice Mcsherry Volume: 26. Issue: 4. Publication Year: 1999. Page Number: 144. COPYRIGHT 1999. Thanks.Giovanni33 (talk) 06:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

New sources required

This article is big on claims but short on citations in places. Some sections have no references at all, which is just not on. I have removed one paragraph from Belgium as that had been tagged for nearly a year. I won't remove any more for the moment, but quite honestly I could see entire sections going if good references don't appear. John Smith's (talk) 22:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess you ignored my request above not to remove more items from this article as I am working on finding the best sources for these claims, and that these claims are valid. I hope this is not more of your wikistalking, JohnSmiths but its odd that you come here and delete right after I posted a message asking editors not to.Giovanni33 (talk) 01:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You posted your request over 12 hours before I made the deletion - that is hardly wikistalking, given I'd been editing for a lot longer last evening. I did miss it, but you can restore it very easily when you find your citations. John Smith's (talk) 12:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

Image:Herald.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

Image:Herald.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Herald.jpg

Image:Herald.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 12:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Soviet Union

An important part of this chapter is actually not concerned with "international" terrorism, as is claimed to be part of the definition in the heading. If the heading is not changed, that part should be deleted. As it is, this part is only there to push POV and support the existence of the "communist terrorism" articles.

Clear examples of this "communist terrorism" POV: mentioning China as a country liberated by the Soviet Army.

The main problem with the rest is (as has been pointed out in the other communist terrorist articles) that it is all based on the controversial statements of one man: Pacepa, who had a clear motive to claim these things. You need more substantiation, or else WP:UNDUE could be invoked.

Obviously, as this article is a POV magnet, the other chapters suffer from similar problems. I have already and easily dealt with an anti-British fragment, but I am sure there must be more.--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 10:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

India

I would like to remove for following reason: - Only one of the citations provided is working, which shows Musharraff blaming India for Balochistan separatism. Even if India did support separatists, there is no evidence in the links provided that these separatism in Balochistan(which is a completely lawless area in itself) can be classified as terrorism(ie, deliberate targeting of innocent civilians). Suigeneris (talk) 08:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears to be a hasty remark to blame India as a tit-for-tat for the Kabul bombings in which both India and US accused Pakistan's ISI for their involvement. Surprisingly as this link indicates Pakistan countered by accusing US too of aiding terrorism in Balochistan, along with India of course, because these 2 nations were able to expose the Kabul terrorist attack. Idleguy (talk) 15:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No he said it even before this Incident he is saying this since 2006.so i'm reverting it.another link Tariq Azeem this time if link doesn't work then here is the text "Arms supply to Bugti, Baloch rebels to be taken up with India, Afghanistan, says Tariq Azeem.

Islamabad, September 05 (PPI): Minister of State for Information Senator Tariq Azeem has said that Pakistan would take up the issue of arms supply to Akbar Bugti and other Baloch tribal chieftains with India and Afghanistan at an appropriate time. In an interview, he said Bugti was not himself..."

[1]

There is ample evidence to support this if it's not Internet this doesn't mean that India is not sponsoring terrorist. User talk:Yousaf465

I reverted your edits for following reasons:

It is immaterial who said and when it was said - support/sympathy for separatism(in itself) does not equal terrorism. Such support may result in armed conflicts between rival parties - but cannot be equated with deliberate and ruthless targeting of civilians like it happenned in Bombay or Karachi.

Your links are mostly not working - You can't copy paste contents of the links to talk page and provide it as reference

There is ample evidence to support this if it's not Internet this doesn't mean that India is not sponsoring terrorist. - Wiki doesnt publish OR. See WP:Original_Research Suigeneris (talk) 15:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is about sponsoring terrisot organzation.The link provided is working and if any link is not working copy it and search it in google.If you think they are not terroist see thislink declares BLA terrorist organisation I pasted that bcz in case that link didn't work but it's working fine.That or was just for the talk page.

Many civilians haved been killed in attacks by these groups. User talk:Yousaf465

• Except the rediff link, the links in my talk page give a 404 error. btw, don't you find it a bit amusing that after India, Afghanistan, and most importantly Pak's ally in the "War on Terror", the USofA accused ISI for its involvement in the recent kabul blasts, we have pakistan reporting of these three nations' (including US) trying to support terrorism in Pakistan? US backing terror networks in Pakistan This only proves that Pakistan is hell bent on accusing those who have criticised Pak by counter allegging them with state-sponsored terrorism. Idleguy (talk) 12:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Again we are seeing disruptive edits by User talk:Yousaf465. Seeing the amount of typos and comments in the user page, I even suppose that these could even be good faith edits by an inexperienced user. The user keeps on adding the OR "Pakistan has accused India of support to terroist groups within Pakistan". The user fails to provide one or more reliable, working links which states the above sentence or an equivalent sentence. I am not interested in an edit war, but if the user keep on adding this OR, this could be considered as vandalism and a WIki admin will have to look into his/her edits.

After providing a link which never works, there is no point in challenging other users to search in google and find themselves about the OR. Suigeneris (talk) 15:27, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

All of these links are working and I will also check in a day or two if there is some problem with them.User talk:Yousaf465

OK here you go - 1)Statement - Pakistan has accused India of supporting terrorist groups such as BLA.Citation - http://www.dawn.com/2006/07/18/top5.htm. I could never find the statement in the link provided - this is a pure OR

2)Statement - Suppling them with arms and ammunition. Whether this is terrorism is debatable - try to discuss here if there is a dispute before you add something.

3) Statement - Indian Intelligences Agencies have also carried bomb attacks in 1990's. Citation -'http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4789260.stm'. Again I could not find the statement you added in the link provided - this is pure OR constructed based on a different incident

4) Statement - Organizations such as Tamil Eelam Liberation Organization have been trained and supported by India. Pure OR - will be deleted

Please dont vandalise by adding pure ORs with irrelevant or non functioning links, that too with full of typos. You are just making unconstructive edits that disrupt the quality of the article as a whole. I recommend that you try to use Wikipedia:Sandbox to experiment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zencv (talk • contribs) 09:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is the reply

1)The dawn link was only for proving that Bla is a terrorist group.The Hindu link was there to support that India is supporting them.The Asia times link mentioned that Bla was been supplied with arms by India

2) This article is about States supporting terrorism.Whether it's through arms supply or being trained in that country.

3)carrying out four bombings which killed 14 people in Pakistan in 1990.

4)Pure Or then see this [2] and what is this Pure OR it wasn't written by me [3]

I don't need sandboxes for such edits when I know that I'm doing it correctly.User talk:Yousaf465

200 typos in 1 sentence, non functioning links, links provided with no proper heading and pure Original Research - if someone read your edits about India, they would realize how desperate you are - oh wait, it is real Madrassa edit indeed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zencv (talk • contribs) 20:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm always in hurry as right now I'm.User talk:Yousaf465

Very intersting material

However, many - including media reports from Pakistan, feel that these counter-allegations launched by Pakistan's President came in the wake of a war of words between India and Pakistan on the suicide attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul, which New Delhi has blamed on Islamabad-based Inter-Services Intelligence agency. Check the date of this article and compare it to the time of attack on Indian embassy in Afghanistan.[4]

See this before reverting any edits."The National" clearly mentions that concerns are being voice well before embassy bombing.User talk:Yousaf465

There is ample evidence that the Pakistani accusations of india supporting BLA is directly linked with immediately preceding Kashmiri accusations of terrorism (a fact that even US has started supporting) even in the past and as well cited it has been used as a tit for tat accusation. I don't wish to say any further because these citations were also removed. whereas the issue on Sri Lanka and much of what's been included as sponsored terrorism is directly from the most biased and pakistan-military publication called "Defence Journal". Half of the info is original research trying to paste erstwhile support to LTTE when they were not banded as "terrorist" with current situations and producing a thesis in here. See WP:OR for what I mean.

Presently the only ally that is being directly hounded in the war on terror is Pakistan. A cursory glance at the newspapers will reveal that Pakistan harbours terrors who spill over to Afghanistan that US troops bombs Pakistan and the latter is issuing ultimatums not to disturb the "peace". The ISI again has been accused by everyone from NATO, to Afghanistan, to even USA for their support to the terrorists and the user Yousaf465 only adds information on India as a weak and futile attempt to somehow avenge all the current happennings with articles dated from 1993 to paint India as the new sponsor of terrorism, when it's Pakistan which is under fire. Talk about timing. Idleguy (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2008 (UTC)