Talk:Richard Dawkins

Family

 Done ϢereSpielChequers 18:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Is he married? Does he have a male partner? Or does his beloved science keep him warm at night? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.115.108 (talk) 13:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

His marriages and children are covered in the article. ϢereSpielChequers 14:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Dawkins seems to have only one child. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.223.218 (talk) 14:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry my mistake, His marriages and one child are covered by the article. But remember this is an Encyclopaedia, we are compiling verifiable notable information. If you are a fan and want more information I suggest you take your questions to his site. I've had a quick look there to see if there is any extra biographical information which we could refer to the article, but not found anything, which could of course mean that he is being cautious - there are evil people out there who have threatened to do him harm. ϢereSpielChequers 16:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Bodyguards

 Not done ϢereSpielChequers 18:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know if he travels with bodyguards? Or, is he unprotected most of the time? I would imagine a man of his stature would surely have bodyguards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.191.205.44 (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Why would you want to know that? I'm sure Dawkins's security arrangements are something he would not want made public. --Michael Johnson (talk) 21:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Further reading section??

 Done ϢereSpielChequers 18:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is the further reading section populated with anti dawkins and anti darwin books?

This should be removed. any objections? Simon.uk.21 (talk) 21:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I hold no brief to defend the inclusion of these books although I see merit in providing a listing of relevant publications which provide a critique. However, if you are going to encourage discussion of a proposed deletion here to a long-standing section which has clearly achieved some consensus within a mature but heavily edited article such as this I think its only proper to allow that discussion to happen. Deleting it two minutes later is disingenuous to regular editors particularly at the height of the holiday season in August. I am reverting your deletion and suggest we allow the status quo to persist to enable an adequate time and proper discussion to take place when editors are around to discuss and enable the existing or new consensus to be reached. Tmol42 (talk) 22:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Reverted again lets just allow some discussion here first What's the rush its 2353 hrs in the UK?Tmol42 (talk) 22:54, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

it just seems odd to me that anti dawkins books would be included in his publications & further reading section. surely the types of further reading youd expect in his article would be selfish gene etc. no? Simon.uk.21 (talk) 00:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Criticism and "further reading" are quite other things. --Tadeusz Dudkowski (talk) 06:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I did not find elaborate WP guidelines on what does and what does not belong in a further reading section. The current paragraph on the WP:Layout page seems to say that a list consisting solely of works by the page subject should be under Bibliography, whereas Further reading can contain works by different authors who provide background or more information on the page subject. In that light books that criticize Richard Dawkins do more or less belong here. Since many authors apparently feel the need to produce a book criticizing Dawkins, and especially his The God Delusion, if we were to maintain such a section, we may want to be selective on which books do get mentioned and which don't. — Ewald ^{(talk|email|contrib)} 08:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm a bit puzzled by the deletion of the Further Reading section - some of the books seem to be polemics aimed at his The God Delusion, though one book, Richard Dawkins: How a Scientist Changed the Way We Think is a festscrift. That one at least, would be relevant for further reading insofar as it covers his influence. Autarch (talk) 15:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Further reading is like bibliography: "If this section solely contains a list of books or other works authored by the subject of the article, then it may be titled "Bibliography", "Publications", or "Works"." It means there is a place for important (but not mentioned in references) information, and "more information" does not mean "criticism". Richard Dawkins: How a Scientist Changed the Way We Think is in template Template:Richard_Dawkins -- Tadeusz Dudkowski (talk) 18:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

ok well i dont think it belongs in the further reading section. i imagine these books would be better suited in a critism section. in this further reading section i feel it gives the impression the books are written by or supported by richard dawkins. anyone want to make a decision? Simon.uk.21 (talk) 23:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

ok i see it has been removed by someone. this removal of non associated content is correct in my opinion. Simon.uk.21 (talk) 23:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment self-deletion

 Done ϢereSpielChequers 18:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

We've had a few IP addresses mystifyingly deleting their own comments, since yesterday. If this is a genuine user having their attempted comments deleted by someone else who shares their IP, they should consider creating an account to stop this happening. --McGeddon (talk) 14:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The Problem With Creation; + Mysterious Deletions

That would be me with the deletions; this is my first time wikicommentating and I was having a little trouble with the technicalities. I believe I have the hang of things now.

To the matter in hand: I've been trying to say that there's a problem with the articles discussion of creationism, because it describes it as the belief that everything is created by a god. This is vastly broader than my understanding, (and Dawkins use), of the term, and with this reading, people who consider that a god may have created the universe and set things up so that organic life and eventually humanity would emerge, such as the cosmologist Martin Rees, would be creationists. I've always considered that creationism meant a literal or close to literal belief in Genesis as it appears in the Bible - and one might of course use it in an equivalent sense with regard to Islam and other scriptural religions. Adding to the difficulty, the Wikipedia article on creationism is similarly ambiguous. As the articles stand, it makes Dawkins' reasonable practise of not debating publicly with creationists look amazingly intolerant and insular. The man himself is bad enough already without this exaggeration, so I suggest something should be done, but I'm not sure which article(s) to adjust because I don't know who's approach, Dawkins' or Wikipedia's is more accurate. It seems to me that there must be some variation in the use of the word in other quarters for this to happen, which is also a cause for concern. So I want to throw the issue open to the floor and see what others may suggest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.83.46 (talk) 15:43, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I've reread the article on creationism and the second paragraph does differentiate between:

• young Earth creationism, proponents of which believe that the days in Genesis Chapter 1 are 24 hours in length,
• Old Earth creationism which accepts geological findings and other methods of dating the earth and believes that these findings do not contradict the Genesis account, but rejects evolution.
• And theistic evolution which presumably covers Martin Rees' position.
  • In theistic evolution is the phrase "A very similar view, that is hardly distinguishable from a scientific viewpoint, is Evolutionary Creationism."

So creationism covers both those who take the seven days of Genesis literally and those who accept the evidence for deep time but not that for evolution. As Dawkins clearly is opposed to all types of Creationism I suggest that any discussion between the various forms of creationism belongs on talk:creationism, or talk:theistic evolution. Clearly Dawkins is combating all four views. As to whether Dawkins is "bad" and if so in what sense of the word, well this isn't the appropriate place for that discussion as Wikipedia has a strict policy of wp:neutral point of view. ϢereSpielChequers 18:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello, this is unsigned wickicommentating novice again (see above.) I wondered if I'd be picked up on my use of the term 'bad'. I thought it might pass muster in the commentary section, on the basis that if I make my personal judgement clear here, (& you may notice I also indicate that I possess a negative judgement toward what the creationism article calls young earth creationism ) it could actually help everyone discuss matters. But of course perhaps experience of the wiki editing process reveals flaws in that benign theory. I would claim that it's fairly obvious in what sense I think he's bad, but at any rate your point is well noted.

I fear my remark about the creationism article wasn't as clear as it should have been; taken on its own merits the article is fine, but my actual concern was that it does nothing to clear up the ambiguity that arises in the 'Richard Dawkins' article, which still persists. Obviously, the place to do that is in the RD article itself. To reiterate my point: I know Dawkins is opposed to all forms of creationism. The problem is that when Dawkins talks of creationism he frequently means young-earth biblical literalists, and these are the people he will not publically debate with. The article creates, and the creationism article through no fault of its own augments, the impression that he refuses to debate in public with any religious believers whatsoever. This still needs fixing. Regards, (I'll sign myself this time.)213.94.238.78 (talk) 13:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm still trying to make my case that there's a problem with the article here. It claims that creationism is "the religious belief that humanity, life and the universe were created by a deity." This is not satisfactory, for reasons I've given. There is some truth to WereSpielChequers contention that the 'creationism' article, as distinct from the RD one, is clear, but I would contend that it's not clear enough to easily untangle the confusion in the RD, and of course this confusion should not be there in the first place. Clearly, the two articles contradict each other, as the 'Martin Rees' position is creationism according to the RD article, and theistic evolution according to the creationism article. So it seems there is a strong case for improving the RD. Which I shall shortly proceed to do, if no-one has any objections....? 84.203.147.58 (talk) 13:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi 84.203.147.58. In passing, note that the creationism article itself opens with:

“ Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity (often the Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam) or deities, whose existence is presupposed. ”

As such, this article's rather brief definition isn't too far off the mark. I don't think anyone here would have a problem with the idea that there are a range of flavours of "creationisms" from deism (universe only) to Young Earth creationism (universe, life, humanity), or that Dawkins is mostly bashing one of these. But this isn't necessarily the place to thrash out a definition. We need something short here, and the current definition here isn't a bad one, even if it does preclude much of the subtlety. If you think up something better, maybe test drive it here first? Given that this article is about Dawkins and not creationism, I think the key aspect is shortness. Best regards, --PLUMBAGO 13:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Plumbago. I wonder if concerns akin to yours were the reason for WereSpielChequers trying to talk me down? Have no fear. I may be a pedant, but I have no enthusiasm for bickering about definitions. Having mused, my intention is simply to prolong the sentence "...creationism, the religious belief that humanity, life and the universe were created by a deity." with the new ending: ", without recourse to evolution." Pithy? However, I'd also like to point out here that the Dawkins quote "a preposterous, mind-shrinking falsehood." refers to the belief that the planet is less than millions of years old. It's an attack, in other words, on young-Earth creationism. This is Dawkins main target, to be sure, but a more general quote covering both young- and old- earth versions would be preferable. I don't know, though, where Dawkins discusses old-earth creationism. Can anyone help?83.70.106.33 (talk) 11:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

OK I've made that change to the sentence at the beginning of Richard Dawkins#Criticism of creationism, and I've also amended the next sentence to clarify exactly what he was describing as "a preposterous, mind-shrinking falsehood." Is everyone happy with the change I made to the second sentence? ϢereSpielChequers 15:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Controversy

This entire page seems whitewashed. Whereas Gould's page has an entire section on the controversies he's been involved in with sociobiology, Dawkins has none. Perhaps this is simply being omitted on this page because there is so much material on Dawkins, and I'm sure there is some long talk-page discussion on the issue. But be that as may, the lack of such a section when one is included on other pages makes it look like he is uncontroversial, and so in the right, whereas others like Gould are controversial, and so in the wrong. Corbmobile (talk) 03:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Controversy sections are actually not encouraged on WP. Criticisms should be added into the body of the article where relevant, as they have been. Aunt Entropy (talk) 04:29, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I would only hope that the usual science editors would taken it upon themselves to be consistent. Since it pretty much goes without saying that the majority of the information written on WP page for figures like Dawkins or Gould is going to come from people who support their respective ideas, it comes off as the Dawkins' side trying to tuck the argument away altogether. Would it not even be possible to use subheads? Corbmobile (talk) 04:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Some people think that his views on Religion and especially Creationism are controversial, and both of those are in the article. Can you give some cited examples of other notable controversies that he has been involved in? ϢereSpielChequers 12:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I was referring the controversy between Dawkins and Wilson and Gould and Lewontin. I am not suggesting that Dawkins' controversies are not present, but that their being meshed in with the subheads under "Work" makes them much harder to find unless you intend to read the whole article, which most people don't. If this "no controversy sections" is indeed the case, then I guess it is the Gould page in error. Still, if that policy is the case, I think it is a bad one---it makes any controversies harder to find, and therefore less likely to be read by anyone who doesn't intend to read the whole article. Corbmobile (talk) 13:59, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that's basically the idea behind discouraging controversy sections - they draw out and highlight negative aspects of the article. Unless you wanted to balance "criticism" and "controversy" sections with fatuous "praise" and "support" sections, having separate controversy sections tends to harm the neutral point of view of the article, as far as I'm concerned. As long as the controversies he's been involved in are adequately covered in the relevant, neutral sections, I personally prefer the way it's handled in this article over the Gould one. ~ mazca ^{t | c} 15:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, who is to define what constitutes a "controversy"? I guess that Dawkins annoying all the teapot-believers counts as one, but what about Fred Hoyle disagreeing with the big bang theory, or one biologist proposing a different model of reproductive skew than another? Maybe yes and no, respectively. Is it a controversy only when it gets noticed outside the specialist area? Maybe - but I would be very wary of setting ourselves (WP editors) up as arbiters of the controversial. Labelling something as "controversial" could come close to original research, and it can certainly act as a troll-magnet. I too think that the Dawkins article is better than the Gould one in this respect. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 16:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm trying to understand what is a controversy with regards to Dawkins. That he doesn't like creationism? Well, to scientists, that's not controversy, it just is. Evolution is a fact, Dawkins is probably the leading voice for science and against the intolerance of the anti-science groups. He might be controversial for the religious fundamentalists, but as a matter of this article, he's just Richard Dawkins. The use of Gould as an example is a bit different than Dawkins. Gould is behind the "sociobiology" field, which is controversial in the field of science (at least it was when I last studied EO Wilson and Gould on this topic about 20 years ago). OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 16:26, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Controversies are covered in the #Evolutionary biology section. What's the problem? . . dave souza, talk 16:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The God Delusion

Dawkins has made it clear that anyone who believes in God is delusional.

exceptions to this can not be made. --Smoothcee (talk) 21:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Your point being what exactly? Teapotgeorge^Talk 21:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

To write facts. --Smoothcee (talk) 21:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Uh, could you be more explicit?--Woland (talk) 21:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No ones's asking for an exception. However, by combining mention of Dawkins' calling religious belief a delusion, along with the specific mention of his father, the edited sentence reads as if he explicitly says somewhere that his father is delusional, especially when followed by a citation to his book. This falls under the provisions of no original research that suggests it's a violation of WP policies to create a synethesis of published material to advance a position. In this case, it is even worse, as I have never seen any reliable source even advanced to the point that his father was an actual believer, so it is unclear to what extent this is a "fact". Thus, there are two problems with this edit. One a violation of WP:NOR and second an unreferenced statement in a biography. I can see by your edit history that you are new here, but please take the time to read these policies, and see why this is disallowed, *especially* on biographies of living people. Edhubbard (talk) 21:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Dawkins describes himself as having a normal Anglican upbringing. --Smoothcee (talk) 21:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

You may also want to read the policy about verifiability, not truth. This is an encyclopedia which means we basically regurgitate information, not draw conclusions from information and write about it. See the above policies that Edhubbard has pointed out. --Woland (talk) 21:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

"Normal Anglican upbringing"? What does that have to do with whether his father believed in God? Guettarda (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Conscription

Conscription-evader.