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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Resolute (talk | contribs) at 23:46, 22 September 2008 (Respond to David Fuchs). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

History of the National Hockey League (1942–1967)

Nominator(s): Resolute

{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History_of_the_National_Hockey_League_(1942%E2%80%931967)/}}{{Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Featured article review/History_of_the_National_Hockey_League_(1942%E2%80%931967)/}}

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This is the second of a series, the first article, covering 1917 to 1942 already being featured. I believe this article is up to the same standards. It is currently a good article, and has been through a peer review that did not yield much, unfortunately. Maxim was kind enough to perform a copyedit. I look forward to all comments. Thanks! Resolute 04:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support In the opening, it states that Gordie Howe made his debut in 1946. While I know who Howe was and his significance to hockey, others won't. There should be some context explaining who he was, otherwise it's just the same as listing someone like Rory Fitzpatrick made his debut in 1995. I'll go through the rest of the article in more detail when I get a chance. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Looks good now. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I've clarified. Resolute 14:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. All done! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ealdgyth (talk • contribs)

Support Comments - I commented at the peer review, and have returned with fresh eyes for a fuller look. Looks very good overall, but a few typos etc.

  • Date-linking officially became deprecated recently. If you want this removed, just ask Tony1 to run his script, which will wipe out the now-discouraged bracketed dates.
  • Rocket Richard: Is the quote by Richard after the riot covered by the following citation?
  • "He retired in 1960 as the NHL's all-time leading scorer with 544 goals and won eight Stanlet Cups during his career." The two parts of this sentence seem mismatched.
  • Hockey Night in Canada: Hyphen for highest rated?
  • Deroit Red Wings: "Barely alive, Howe was rushed to hospital..." Watch the grammar here.
  • Breaking the colour barrier: Again, is the quote by Carnegie's coach covered in the following reference?
  • Expansion: "and improve the its chances...".
  • Another quote question, this time about Prime Minister Pearson.
  • Rules and innovations: "The NHL Amateur Draft, later be renamed the..."
  • Goaltending: "as its large nosepiece it interfered with his vision."

Two more general comments. 1): I saw a few places that looked like they could use hyphens, and a few awkward uses of however. 2): The Bobby Baun story, which I suggested including, looks out of place in the Chicago section. The Maple Leafs section isn't that big, so perhaps it would go better there. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I have addressed your specific concerns. And yes, the three quotes you mentioned are supported directly by the next citations. I'll go through again looking for places to add hyphens (I hate those things...), but I'm a little unsure on moving the Baun bit up, since it would break the rough chronological order of the article. I'll come up with something. Thanks for the feedback! Resolute 00:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, hopefully I've addressed your concerns. Resolute 19:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, looks good. Just a couple more things I found at the end.
  • "ready to return to play, Plante refused to play..." Just a touch repetitive.
  • "Sawchuk relied on his ability to see the puck under the players bodies" Players requires an apostrophe.
  • Butterfly style linked twice.
  • Unionization: The $3 million needs a non-breaking space in the middle. Something to do with preventing numbers from breaking at the end of lines.
  • Another small repitition: "Other teams quickly followed, and the union quickly capitulated."
  • Alan Eagleson. Eagleson..." Giants2008 (17-14) 02:30, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed. That would not surprise me. FT is nice, but I don't see the need for two articles summarizing the history. If that prevents an FT, then so be it. Still gonna work on bringing the five articles to FA status though. Thanks for the advice. Resolute 02:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The article should mention Ulf Sterner (first European NHLer) somewhere.-Wafulz (talk) 18:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll have to double check, but one of the sources I used states that the first European player(s) in the NHL played in the 1940s. Sterner played in 1964, so despite what LOH says, he may not have been the first European NHL player. I'll likely look this up tomorrow. Resolute 19:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • It might be the definition of "European". I think he was the first to be born and trained in Europe.-Wafulz (talk) 19:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Quite poissible. Depending on what I can come up with, I might start the Iron Curtain section with... "European players have been in the NHL since the 1940s, thoug Ulf Sterner, who joined the Rangers in 1964, is considered the first European born and trained player in the NHL..." or something along those lines. Resolute 20:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think either way, I will include a mention of Sterner in the 1967-1992 article where the influx of European players is given focus. It will fit better in that section. Resolute 21:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • You are just making guesses when you say "European players have been in the NHL since the 1940s"—Charlie Gardiner (born in Scotland) and Johnny Gottselig (born in Russia) both joined the NHL in the late 20s. I would even bet that there were European-born hockey players in the NHL before that, perhaps even right at the beginning. If you apply for FA, make sure everything in the article is absolutely certain. Making guesses just compromises the integrity of the article. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: some of it is nicely written indeed, but it could do with a spruce-up by a careful copy-editor who's distant from the text. If this happened after promotion, I wouldn't mind, since I trust you to want us to be proud of it. Here are little bits I picked up at the top.
    • "Would" as "future in past" tense ("He would retire 35 seasons later") is rather overused and becomes predictable, losing any sense of vividness it had. I'd reduce a few instances. It's inconsistent, too (FIP, plain past, FIP at the opening, in sequence). I wouldn't use it at all, but it's not strictly speaking ungrammatical.
  • "The league peaked at ten teams between 1926 and 1931, however financial pressures led the Pittsburgh Pirates to relocate to become the Philadelphia Quakers in 1930, then to fold in 1931." Ambiguous without comma after "; however,". I first thought it would be something like ", however financial pressures led to their demise ..." (i.e., in whatever way f p led to their d).
  • "With the Montreal market unable to support two teams, the Maroons suspended operations in 1937." "With" at the start of a sentence sets off alarm bells. Why not "Because ... was unable"—straighter and simpler?
  • "Finally," makes me yawn. Just remove it.
  • Remove comma after "meeting", as long as he both collapsed at the meeting and died in that month. The single comma after "died" says that.
  • "fixed" ... "six". Jingle. Just remove "fixed"?
  • "These six teams ...". Awkward paragraph break, when the six have just been announced at the end of the previous para. Break earlier? Or just two paras in the lead. Tony (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have addressed your specific concerns, and will go through and look for more of those future-in-past statements and "woulds" to ensure it is not overused. And certainly, I will look for others to copyedit the text as available. Thank you for the feedback. Resolute 16:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - I've given the article a partial copyedit ("Background" to the end of the "Rocket Richard" section) at the suggestion of Maxim, and I will continue on over the weekend. Some points that stand out in my mind, as I was going through:

  • I found the article was a bit "in-universe" even to me, and I am quite familiar with most of this information. I've tried to clean that up a bit with the copy editing, but another pair of eyes unfamiliar with hockey might be useful.
  • Television contracts - you mention the league lost the contract with CBS, but don't say when. Suggest also that the heading for this section should reflect the CBS contract in some way.
  • The Richard quote - Paraphrase this. I can guarantee you he did not say what is quoted; his radio broadcast was in French. Direct quotes should usually be referenced, translated direct quotes even more so.
  • Norris House League - what was the fourth team the Norris family held interest in? Boston was owned by the Adams family, Montreal by the Molsons, and Toronto by Smythe, Bassett and Ballard.
  • I've edited down some sections I thought were too extensive and detailed, as this is intended to be a survey article.
  • I haven't changed it, but I think the heading "End of an era" is out of place. It isn't clear what era is being referred to, and the paragraphs following encompass nine years.
  • I found it surprising that there was no mention of the fact the NY Rangers did not win a single Stanley Cup throughout that entire era. To me, that is more significant than the length of time Chicago has gone without winning a cup, since Chicago won during the course of the period discussed.
  • I may have further comments as I continue through on the copy edit. If the nominator disagrees with any of my edits, please feel free to revert. Risker (talk) 05:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I handled the Richard quote. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for offering an additional pair of eyes! I have restored one bit of the Richard section, as a couple quotes and a reference supporting the differing opinion of Richard between English and French Canada were removed. I'll have to check, but I believe the Norris family had an interest in the Boston Garden as well. I can't source it atm, so I've reworded the statement to say the Norrises held interests in "several" of the league's teams. As far as the Rangers go, I've mentioned their drought and curse in the 1992–present article. I mention Toronto and Chicago becuase their last championships fell into this time period, and because Chicago's drought is the longest active, while Toronto's is highly celebrated. I'll re-title "End of an Era". I think that when I was originally writing it, that section was intended to describe the end of the Original Six, but given subsequent additions doesn't accurately reflect the content of the section. Regards, Resolute 15:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looks pretty good, but some issues so 'leaning oppose for now:
    • "For the next 25 seasons, the NHL remained stable as the Boston Bruins, Chicago Black Hawks, Detroit Red Wings, Montreal Canadiens, New York Rangers and Toronto Maple Leafs comprised the league." - Perhaps "The NHL, comprised of [TEAMS HERE], remained stable for the next twenty-five seasons." It just sounds awkward.
      • I like that suggestion, changed.
    • "Maurice Richard became the first player to score 50 goals in a season in..." this paragraph seems kinda jumpy. Since we're talking about history, you should preface this with something about player records or something.
      • I've tried to reword this, I hope it is suitable.
    • "which had been the de facto championship since 1926, became the de jure championship" - sounds pretentious, not to mention far fewer people know what de jure means compared to de facto.
      • The two terms are related, and is similarly used on Stanley Cup. I'm open to suggestions on how to re-word this though.
    • Audit throughout for unnecessary use of commas, ex. " however, financial pressures led to the demise of several teams". Also run through for redundancies and rephrase, such as "several", "many", et al.
      • Removed specific example, and will check the entire article for them
    • "Post-war period"... well, it says its undergoing expansion. That's hardly stable.
      • An editor who was doing a copyedit for us placed that tag to mark what section he was looking over, but hasn't actually made any changes in several days. I've removed it.
    • "reached the 50 goals in 50 games plateau..." - it's not really a plateau in the physical or metaphorical sense, as it could be surpassed. Rephrase.
      • Done.
    • "In March 1955, Richard was suspended for the remainder of the season, including the playoffs, after he received a match penalty for slashing Boston's Hal Laycoe before punching a linesman who attempted to intervene" - not clear what's going on here. He received a penalty for slashing Hal before he punched a linesmen? Why not sorten it and say "for slashing Boston's Hal Laycoe and punching a linesman".
      • Done.
    • " Willie O'Ree suited up for the Bruins " could we avoid the vernacular, casual terms?
      • Changed to "donned Bruins silks" (just kidding), used more neutral wording.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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