Talk:Mumbai

This reference page has been destroyed by the addition of the Nov 26 terrorist attack information. This is not a news page people! Codeviolation (talk) 00:51, 27 November 2008 (UTC) codeviolation

History and language issue

I made a contribution on History of Mumbai section. The current description just logs down a series of events and dates. I changed the presentation of content to describe the growth in religious, regional and linguistic divide in the city. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mumbai&oldid=254027434. History is a story of change not a log of events and dates. Every edit I have made is backed with references. Yet I see unreasonable edits from Kensplanet and Docku, deleting the entire change. On grounds like "Hindi, Guj not considered local languages of Bombay although spoken"

Language is the issue of concern for Bombay. Monopolizing the article by one sided views about the city is a matter of concern. There are many different articles about other cities in Wikipedia in which multiple language references are provided. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmedabad, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucknow. Why should article on Mumbai not include other language Wiki referenece? Specially Hindi and Gujrati which are widely spoken here?

Deleting someones factual contents without discussing is inappropriate. If some people monopolize the article like this then it will drive away interest in serious contributions. Please provide your views and support to improve the article on these lines.221.249.25.218 (talk) 17:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed the Hindi and Gujarathi transliterations of Mumbai on the grounds that other language scripts, in general, are intrinsically uninformative in an English encyclopedia. It makes the start of the article look ugly and will additionally encourage subsequent addition of other scripts in the future. Docku: What up? 17:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

221.249.25.218, there are a lot of conditions which need to be gratified before languages are declared local. The name which appears after Mumbai in the first line means the native name of the city in the native language. Hindi is out of question. Hindi was not spoken in Bombay during olden days. Association with just 40-50 years is not enough. Gujurati can be considered as a contender. The city has been receiving immmigrants from Gujarat from as early as the 13th century. The earlist settlers of Bombay, Pathare prabhus, had also migrated from Gujarat in 1298. But slowly they were assimilated into the Marathi stock and as of today they are Maharashtrians and not Gujaratis. This is the story of all immigrants from Gujarat in the olden days. Hence, even Gujarati cannot be considered as a local language of Mumbai. Hence, these two languages cannot be added. Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 06:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• There are many different articles about other cities in Wikipedia in which multiple language references are provided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmedabad, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucknow. Why should article on Mumbai not include other language Wiki referenece? Specially Hindi and Gujrati which are widely spoken here?

• • Our article is independent of Delhi, Ahmedabad and Lucknow. As I have explained above, although widely spoken, Hindi and Gujrati are not considered local languages of the city. Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 06:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Docku you had asked me a question that you later changed your mind about and removed from your message post. "Could you pls let us all know what historic information you want to add with references?". Sure I can provide. Please refer to the last two paragraphs of history section in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mumbai&oldid=254027434. As far as adding other language wiki is concerned look at the Wiki for 'India'. There is a link for other language wikis. Something similar can be done to keep the page clean if that is the concern. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_names_of_India. There are always option of improvement. I disagree with deleting someones post like it was done today. It discourages people from adding content. Editing means improving not deleting 221.249.25.218 (talk) 18:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The link to other language wikis on the left side of the article is good enough. Docku: What up? 19:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• I made a contribution on History of Mumbai section. The current description just logs down a series of events and dates. I changed the presentation of content to describe the growth in religious, regional and linguistic divide in the city. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mumbai&oldid=254027434. History is a story of change not a log of events and dates. Every edit I have made is backed with references.
  • Please note that this is a Featured article. You cannot just make monumental changes like this without discussing. Thanks for discussing anyway. We'll analyze [1]

---

• City's unique demographics is a result of migration of people from other parts of the country. But since the middle of 80's the city has gone through linguistic and communal polarization, coupled by a rise in local sentiments.
• In August of 2008, a legislation was passed in the civic body to have all future documentation of the Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation(formerly Bombay Municipal Corporation) or BMC, in Marathi only . A similar legislation had failed to pass in 1986. Incidents of violence over name of the city (Bombay v/s Mumbai) and language of discourse (Marathi v/s others) have increased over the years.

---

• Your first point needs citation from reliable sources. Who says it is unique. Anyway in the Lead there's a sentence Mumbai's business opportunities, as well as its high standard of living, attract migrants from all over India and, in turn, make the city a potpourri of many communities and cultures. This is similar to your sentence. Hence, no need of mentioning it there
• Please no general statements like But since the middle of 80's the city has gone through linguistic and communal polarization, coupled by a rise in local sentiments.. Stick only to events like the North Indian attacks etc..
• How is the August 2008 legislation considered as a linguistic polarization. You may consider it as a linguistic polarization, I do not. Some people may, some people may not. Different people, different Point of views. Hence, better not include it here. 1986 legislation are all trivial details.
• I haven't heard many incidents of violence over name of the city (Bombay v/s Mumbai). There may be protests. (Marathi v/s others) - Which are these other languages? Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 07:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I an sorry but you are asking me to repeat what I have already cited in references. Please read those. There is citation of Bombay Dyeing incident. Others is not for language but for outsiders non-marathis. Attacks on other communities has occurred and has been cited. South Indians, North Indians, Muslims all have been targeted in past by certain people. Demographic of Mumbai is unique for any city in India and the world. Read the census report. There are people from many religious, linguistic, ethnic, national, racial groups living in the city. The section on demographic and people and culture in this article itself proves that. Read the changes in full (rather than mulling over each word). With an open mind one would understand what the intent is. You have not cited the reasons why Hindi is out of question very well it just sounds prejudice to me.221.249.25.218 (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi IP 221*: There are several issues with your edits. First, the article is mean to be a summary. Next, the prose has several issues: "city's unique demographics" (unique is a Weasel term. Next this statement: In August of 2008, a legislation was passed in the civic body to have all future documentation of the Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation – has nothing to do with the city, its an internal matter of the BMC, and should be covered in that article. See Wikipedia:Main article fixation. Next, about the lead languages: To avoid disputes, we transliterate the name with only the official language of the state in which the city is located. Adding Gujarati would result in a subjective call. Adding Hindi is debatable, we have not achieved consensus for that. If you have any issues, or want to debate the policy, please raise it on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indian cities =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Make Mumbai semi protacted People without Account should not edit this article.--Suyogaerospace^{talk to me!} 09:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

We can't do that unless there is protracted vandalism. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your concerns Mr. IP. But since no one agrees, better not to add it in the article. May we suggest creating an account. You have a good knowledge of Wikipedia. Thanks, Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 15:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion about using an account well taken. But there is good reason why I don't use my account before editing any Wiki first anonymously. 221.249.25.218 (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

All who have added comments to my post, thanks for the input. Using terms like Our article' does not help. Nor does it help to come to conclusion about “No one agrees” with just 3 peoples’ comments. No one owns an article on Wikipedia not even its creator. It is publicly owned. There are reasons for my views. Marathi speakers in Mumbai are the largest majority but still less than 50%. Hindi is understood by most citizens here. That makes it a major language. You can find road signs in the city in Gujarati and Hindi in several parts of the city. Hinduism is not awarded a greater status in India. All religions are equal even if Hindus number 80%. Acceptance of a fact by the constitution makes the country what it is today. Majority does not mean others have to be ignored. Marathi was made the official language of Municipal Goverment Of Mumbai in Aug 2008. Same legislation that was rejected in 86. Name of the city was changed in 95. Why after 48 years of independence did this name change happen? Why were there anti South-Indian sentiments in Bombay in 80s then anti-muslim and now anti north-indian. Are there events just dates and facts or is there a pattern of change.

Pickup any modern history book, the subject is made interesting read by prose explaining what change happened over the years, not by a bunch of dates and events. Most of the facts in the changes I did were already there in the article. Every fact I added was backed by references for leading media organization. My saying unique demographics of the city, is not a unique addition by me. There is another place in the article which says "unique topography". We saw nothing wrong with that. Demographics of Bombay are unique for India and for the world. What language is official is passed by legislation, which language is spoken and understood by a major population in the city is a fact. Bombay Stock Exchange has its website in Hindi and Gujarati along with English. BSE has done it because those are the major languages spoke by its traders. Such recognition is not have to be always a political decision passed in legislature it is just the recognition of a fact. VT is still called VT in spite of name change. Sahar airport is still called Sahar airport in spite of name change. Mumbai in Hindi and Marathi is written exactly the same way in Devanagari script. One may say Marathi another will say Hindi. Hindi move industry is in Bombay why Bombay why not some other city? Hindi is a major language spoken here, perhaps the largest second language spoken here if not first. It cannot be denied by legislation.

There have been attacks by activist of some political parties on businesses and people in the city. Bombay Dyeing was asked to stop using that name. The incidents are many.The narrow minded view shown on the streets should not be shown here on the article also. In the name of protecting the article from vandalism good faith edits should not simply be deleted all together. There is an alternative view to what some hold. I don’t intend to change the view of everyone. It is not possible to change peoples’ views in such a sort period of time. The intent here is to attract alternative, non-prejudiced view. Apologize for the long commentary. Please provide your suggestions and more importantly please spend some time thinking about these issues. 221.249.25.218 (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Show me where are Gujarati and Hindi sign boards in Mumbai can you add somwe pic of them? And Marathi and Hindi are written in diffrent way. Hindi dont have ळ in place of ळ they use ल for example कमळ this is marathi and Hindi its written as कमल. Got my point? Hindia and Marathi are diffrent --Suyogaerospace^{talk to me!} 02:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

One needs to travel a bit in the city to see. Go to Vile Parle west near the station. Go to Ghatkopar. I can add picture on a promise that the old boys here won't delete it out right. Don't want to go thru' the pain of clicking, just as I went thru' the effort of editing this article before. I know the ळ sound of Marathi just as I know the Gujarati and Hindi scripts. The point there was about the image of sign board in front of Taj which says मुंबई you are a Marathi so you will read it in Marathi. Someone else who reads Hindi will read the same as Mumbai in Hindi. There was someone who had once changed the title to say it is in Devanagri script a fact right and the old boys deleted it saying it is "Marathi only"(read article edit history). There was a news snippet in NDTV today about an SMS floating around " .... there are 200 NSG commandos in Mumbai helping people of Mumbai ... NSG commandos who are North-Indians and South-Indians.". Every one is participating in the City and its future but recently there has been polarization. People need to know facts. NDTV reporter Srinivasan Jain said the same( exact world polarization was used) just today reporting from in front of the Taj. 221.249.25.218 (talk) 15

58, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear AnUr, That is long. I cant answer all your questions. Let me try some. I understand your concern that three people dont make up the whole wikipedia and certainly dont get to decide what rightfully belongs in this article. Believe me, that is pretty much the average response you will get in any page in wikipedia. In some pages, no one will even care to respond unless you write "penis" in the middle of some random sentence. The point is, consensus is decided by people who watch the pages and people who r willing to participae in the discussion.

This message is addressed to some one I don't know call me Mr IP I like that better. There is an opinion set up here amongst the people who are the old boys group here and have a set opinion. I am OK with edits to what I wrote(that is expected) my disagreement is with out right deletion. As if an alternative expression is completely being ignored. 221.249.25.218 (talk) 15:58, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The unique demographics of Mumbai is very well written down here in English in the Demographics section, According to the 1991 census, the linguistic groups' demographics are: Maharashtrians (53%), Gujaratis (22%), North Indians (17%), Tamils (3%), Sindhis (3%), Tuluvas/Kannadigas (2%) and others. Why do we need Hindi and Gujarathi scripts to convey the same message?

It is to recognize the importance. I know of at least one North Indian city for example. People editing its Wikipedia article recognize Marathi as an in important language and mention it just where I mentioned Hindi and Gujarati in this article. The old boy Kensplanet(and established reviewer) credited with the Wiki on Mangalore has no problem with the article giving 5 languages importance in a city with population of 4 Lakhs or so but Wiki of Mumbai with a population of 1 Crore 36 Lakhs... Is there something else for me left to say? 221.249.25.218 (talk) 15:58, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Apparenlty you have a taste for redundancy. You said, "Most of the facts in the changes I did were already there in the article." Why, in the first place, would you then add things which are already in the article? Pls read WP:SS which might explain why it is not elaborated. Docku: What up? 03:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

We are having a great discussion here. When I said most of the facts in the changes I did were already there in the article means I moved around(sequenced) the content in the history section to show a change in the city that has taken place over the years. Read the paragraph I wrote in the entirety and one gets the message. Rather than put together facts like log book an encyclopedia can reveal what is really happening. I think I have struck a good conversation with you guys perhaps we might get to understand each other better. Once we reach that stage I am already thinking of referring alternative reading material to you guys. Lets see how it goes. 221.249.25.218 (talk) 16:07, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

You mentioned Mangalore in between. Please note that all the languages mentioned there are considered local by the people themselves. But in Mumbai, that is not so? Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 10:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I hope you understand the irony in the argument you are making. If you say that Mangalore can have 5 languages considered local then Mangalore appears more cosmopolitan than Mumbai to me. Population difference itself is ironic 4 Lakhs v/s 1 Crore 36 Lakh. Language is what people in the City speak, that is what makes it local. As I said it is for people to think and ponder but the City is not made of one people speaking one language. The city is much more than that. Facts won't change by some people remaining stubborn. Can you please give a breakup in percentage of the people speaking the 5 'local' languages in Mangalore and the absolute number? Then please do that math with Mumbai. 221.249.25.218 (talk) 16:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

First this is an English-language encyclopedia. Adding local scripts to the page was created more as a value-addition rather than for political posturing. It's not an anti Hindi bias or pro-Marathi bias. The issue is the limitation of the scripts to a minimum. As per consensus, we have restricted it to the local language only. A similar thread can be found here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indian cities/archive1#City name in the local language. We should restrict the languages to a finite list rather than open it to everyone editing. Having unnecessary languages as ridiculous as having Preeti Zinta or Rithesh Deshmukh's name in Urdu, as Urdu was the lingua franca of Bollywood in the 1960s and 1970. Yes, this was debated by the Indian film Wikiproject. The best way to keep a finite list is by going by official government guidelines. Please raise any issues on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indian cities, not here. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Mumbai's "High Standard of Living"

This phrase "high standard of living" in the intro is very problematic, as if I'm not mistaken many or most of these migrants are living in shantytown slums:

"Mumbai's business opportunities, as well as its high standard of living, attract migrants from all over India and, in turn, make the city a potpourri of many communities and cultures."

In general the article seems to be portraying a false impression of a thoroughly modern and prosperous Western-style city -- rather than a teeming and desperate developing world megalopolis with a vast divide between rich and poor.

Could we see some slum photos as well instead of the travel brochure? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.154.212 (talk) 04:42, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Currently November 2008 Mumbai attacks is our prority Mumbai is at war we will work on your suggestion after the situation is under control--Suyogaerospace^{talk to me!} 05:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Well this is wikipedia, not Mumbai, and lets hope the terrible recent events encourage people to imporve the article. I agree about the standard of living issue and so have tweaked it to say "as well as its potential to offer a high standard of living". Thanks, SqueakBox 17:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I mean to say that Most of Editors are editing the above mention article.--Suyogaerospace^{talk to me!} 05:39, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Article traffic

just like to say that since the recent events of the terrorist attacks in Mumbai, the article has received 245,800 views on Nov 27, as compared to around usual 5,000 views. please take care of article.[2] -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.14.149 (talk • contribs)

I just want to note for our editors who can read and write in other languages that while the Hindi version is decent in length, the Gujarati one is woeful. There are wikis for other languages that could use a lot of help, especially for details on recent events. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I am also working on Marathi wiki and german wiki--Suyogaerospace^{talk to me!} 08:12, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Great work by Wikipedians

Just wanted to let you all know that the map Image:Mumbai_area_locator_map.svg was used by NDTV to cover the Mumbai terror attacks. Can be seen here: [3]. Another feather in the cap for Wikipedia. --128.211.201.161 (talk) 07:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Map is wrong btw. The locations are marked by people in Delhi. :) =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:15, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

What patience with anonymous editors!

I wonder, why Wikipedia administrators do not block this article from obnoxious "IP Number users" so as to end this frequent, troublesome, and anonymous foul editing? Take a look at this article's History— for example, shameless edits from "users" (in reality, vandals) like 209.155.27.147. In my opinion, "IP Number users" should not even have a talk page, as they are just occasional editors, mostly anonymous! If they don't care to register in Wikipedia, why should Wikipedia care about them? --AVM (talk) 01:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Blocking is preventive, not punitive. =Nichalp «Talk»= 14:53, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I really think it is high time now to prevent IP users from adding nonsense to Mumbai page. Look at the page history. It is filled with IP users adding spams into the external link section, personal opinions across sections and even one newbie used it as a sandbox recently. --GPPande 19:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you I also had tough time over here November 2008 Mumbai attacks‎‎ Suyogaerospace^{talk to me!} 09:11, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Source for name change Bombay to Mumbai

I found the following source about the name change from Bombay to Mumbai:

• Kenny Easwaran: The Politics of Name Changes in India (2001)

If there are no objections, could this be added in the article? Indya1000 (talk) 14:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

No it cannot be added http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~easwaran/papers/india.html has been written by http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~easwaran/

Kenny Easwaran is currently a Ph.D. student in the Program in Logic and Methodology of Science at UC Berkeley. Research by Students cannot be considered reliable. Only research by experts can be taken. Kensplanet^Talk_{Contributions} 09:11, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

It can be added. "Student" and "Expert" are not mutually exclusive. To suggest otherwise that a PhD student cannot also be an expert in his field is absurd. I'm an expert in my field and I'm a dropout.209.131.62.115 (talk) 16:26, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

What Kensplanet is saying is that Easwaran is not necessarily an expert in the field. I can very well write an article about the etymology of the city. But what makes my work credible? =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Images

I count

• 7 images of expensive skyscrapers occupied by the richest.
• 0 images of ordinary people's buildings, where the remaining 99% of people live and work.

Some recommendations for a bit more balanced article can be found below.Lalit Jagannath (talk) 16:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• 
• 
  Children in Dharavi
• 
  Dabbawalas
• 
  Dhobi Ghat at Mahalaxmi in Mumbai

• Strong Oppose: May we know which 7 skyscrapers are you talking about? VT station, Airport, High Court are not skyscrapers. Which specific section please? Kensplanet^T_C 16:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose: Sounds like 70s/80s movie story! Conflict between rich and poor!! By the way this reminds me that Mumbai article has less images compared to other citis do we add other images? or should have a gallery? or drop my Idea?--Suyog^{talk to me!} 16:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)