Talk:Haredi Judaism

Haredi Jews, Abortion and Interfaith

While Haredi Jews are not particularly known for their interfaith efforts, it should perhaps be noted that Haredis and Roman Catholics share many common positions on the topics of Abortion, Contraception and Euthanasia. Rabbi Yehuda Levin, who is a Haredi, has for instance participated in several joint efforts with Catholic leaders in order to oppose Abortion. [1]ADM (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Quite big nonsense. There are very big differences. Judaism allows abortion under certain circumstances: when the life of the mother is in danger - including in psychologic danger. It must be noted that abortion needs the permission of a very big rabbi who is well-aquainted with these laws. However, it is possible, which is quite different from the Catholics, where it is forbidden under any and all circumstances. This difference is because Judaism does not regard the unborn child as a living being. Don't ask me about further specifics - I'm not a rabbi. But I do know enough to tell you that the Jewish position regarding abortion is absolutely not the same as the Catholic one. And the fact that conservative (ie, Orthodox Jewish) religious people of any religion opposite abortion doesn't need to be explained. So I see no reason at all to add this to the article. --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

That is actually incorrect, Piz. IIRC, the fetus IS considered a living being, which is why abortion is forbidden in general. However, it is no different than any other living being, and at times may be considered a rodef, a murderer, and there are times when killing someone in self-defense is permitted (Ba L'hargecha...). -- Avi (talk) 21:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but my point was that Haredi rabbis will oppose abortion in 90-95 % of cases, while Reform and Conservative rabbis will oppose it in only 20-50 % of cases. Pardon the casuistry, but in a sense the Ultra-Conservative Jews have a slightly similar position to that of the Church. ADM (talk) 20:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The topic of divorce also seems relevant in Christian-Haredi relations, since the Haredi are known to be quite hostile to divorce, in a way that in a sense mirrors the attitude of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter. ADM (talk) 21:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, regarding abortion: as I said, I'm not a rabbi. Don't ask me for details. But there are instances in which rabbis permit abortions. With the Catholics, there are none, which is a fundamental difference. Also, please tell me where you got those statistics. Secondly: divorce is accepted and occurs quite frequently in the Haredi world. There is no taboo on divorcees; they simply remarry (usually with another divorcee). My own very big Haredi rabbi has two divorced children. Divorced youth usually return to their parent's house until they remarry. So, there is no likeness whatsoever in the Catholic and Haredi view on abortions. Now, tell me, just why do you seem to think you know everything about Haredim? Are you actually even Jewish, Orthodox? I'm sorry to say so, but it seems to me like you don't really know what you're talking about, both regarding the abortion issue and the divorce issue. --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 21:46, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not talking about sociology and statistics (and your friends), but about official opinions, views and teachings, for example in the topic of comparative religion, which may or may not yield comparisons to magisterial doctrine and dogma on abortion and divorce. ADM (talk) 21:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

And I'm telling you I know a **censure** lot more about Judaism than you do, and you're plain wrong. So I suggest you try to find another topic to get involved in. --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 08:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Officially, divorce is permitted under halacha, and entire sections of Maimonedes, The Tur, The Shulchan Aruch, and tens of thousands of pages of post-Shulchan Aruch responsa are dedicated to it. There is no sweeping prohibition per se against divorce as there is in the Catholic religion. There may be times where it is counseled against, for the sociological reasons that divorce can be extremely destructive to children and extended families, but divorces happen all the time (unfortunately). Please do not confuse a respect for the sanctity of marriage and a desire to keep families together with a religious doctrine against divorce. Thank you. -- Avi (talk) 23:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Please. The question isn't whether the Haredi view on abortion (or divorce, or stem cell research, or anything else) is exactly the same as the Catholic view: obviously there is some common ground, and some differences. It is whether there has in fact been any joint work between the two on those aspects they happen to agree on. No one seems to have commented on this. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The answer is very short. Haredim generally do not participate in any interreligious dialogue whatsoever. And the Chief Rabbinate of the State of Israel (which is primarily Modern Orthodox though with a significant Lithuanian Haredi influence as of recent) just cut all ties with the Vatican a few days ago, as did the Italian Jewish community, so I understood. --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 11:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

No, there has been no joint work on any religious issue. -- Avi (talk) 13:25, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I did however mention Yehuda Levin, a noted Ecumenist AND a Haredi, although it is not clear what is Mr Levin's standing within the Haredi community. ADM (talk) 20:04, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

One person's actions do not alter centuries, if not millenia of tradition backed by written responsa and texts. -- Avi (talk) 22:45, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Levin's standing? Pretty much similar to the standing inside Catholicism of those Catholic clown bishops who deny the Holocaust. Levin is a small person, a non-important 'rabbi' with very controversial points (including his alliances with Christian right-wing extremists and his advocacy of violence against gay parades, and IIRC alson the pullout from Gaza 3 years ago). Normal Haredim do not see Levin as a normative Haredi rabbi. If you want some reading material about normative Haredim, check: http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com (especially check in the left column "TOPICS IN THE NEWS" and on the right side "A CHAREIDI VIEW ON...". You'll find a lot of interesting reading material there (though some of it contains certain Jewish terms which you might not understand). Feel free to ask me on my talk page if you need help understanding something there. --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 23:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

One more thing: I'll give you a short list of really representative Haredi rabbis. Check the following list, which is a random quickly comprised list of some prominent living and deceased Haredi rabbis.

• Rabbi Moshe Feinstein
• The Chofetz Chaim
• The Chassam Sofer
• Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum
• The Chazon Ish
• Rabbi Ovadia Yosef
• Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach
• Rabbi Yosef Sholom Eliashiv
• The Rebbes of Satmar, Ger, Belz, Vizhnitz, Munkatsh, Dushinsky, Nadvorna, Boyan, for example, and many others - see List of Hasidic dynasties.
• Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky
• Rabbi Nissim Karelitz
• Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel Weiss
• Rabbi Yitzchok Yaakov Weiss
• The Steipler Gaon
• The Vilna Gaon
• Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch
• Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg
• Rabbi Aharon Kotler

Now if you go and read all that these rabbis wrote about issues such as abortion and divorce, and any other issue on your mind, then you'll have a clearer understanding of the matters involved. These are all rabbis who are recognized by virtually the entire Haredi world as being important leaders of immense posture. Some examples of rabbis who belong to the Hardal world, which combines Religious Zionism and Modern Orthodoxy (sociologically, they are closer to the Modern Orthodox world) with halachic observance on a higher level than the regular Modern Orthodox, see for example Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, Rabbi Dov Lior, and also this Rabbi Yehuda Levin you mentioned (I think). --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 23:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

OK thanks ! ADM (talk) 23:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

A call on everyone who reads this page: Let's get some more pictures

Hi everybody. I would like to call your attention to the fact that we lack pictures. We need more pictures of Haredi life, of yeshivos, botei knesses, etc. I am planning to hold a small picture tour of my own neighborhood (Givat Shaul), Geulah and Meah Shearim this coming Sunday. I call on the others who are involved in these articles to do the same. We need to get some good illustrations of Haredi Judaism all around the world. I can take care of Israel, but I need you to take care of other places. London (Redaktor?), New York, and other places. I will present my pictures here next week, probably on an external hosting site first (I don't want to clutter Wikimedia with unnecessary pictures), so we can decide together which of them to use. Sign up here. --Piz d'Es-Cha (talk) 19:54, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

dress

Hi there. I was wondering if perhaps tzitzit should be given a mention under the "dress" section? Tad Lincoln (talk) 03:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Tzitit are not particular to Chareidim. Do you mean wearing them out? I believe Rav Moshe Feinstein was against it, so it is certainly not universal. Probably better under Chasidim.62.219.96.219 (talk) 10:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)