Talk:Eye of Providence

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The new stub for this page has been moved to Eye of Providence/Temp and can be edited there. DJ Clayworth 19:20, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The Eye of Lucifer

There should be some mentioning that the Eye represents Lucifer. Indeed, Masonry Is Luciferianism. See Dr. Stanley Monteith's "Secrets of the Illuminati Revealed" at http://suppressedminds.com/?p=271. FreeMasonry is Luciferianism.

The eye on the Supreme Court of Israel

Why nobody mentioned that?

Because nobody knew about it, and because you didnt leave a reference. Got a picture? --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 01:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alien eye

Since the article about the dollar bill dont say anything about it as it should, this article should include it as well. Why is the eye, allegedly "the eye of providence", on the dollar bill alien or non-human? It is for sure not a picture of a human eye, it is for sure nonhuman. But the question is why.? Why does the seal of the united states and the dollar bill carry a nonhuman eye? There is no answers to be find anywhere... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.197.153.168 (talk) 09:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see it... what about it looks inhuman to you? --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 22:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other connections

Whilst looking for another Masonic version of the Eye of Providence, I came across this symbol

File:SunFace.gif

Sun-face

I would imagine this sort of personification derives from general sun worship, and possibly Ra or the Eye of Horus/Ra. Does anyone know whether that is true, and is the personified Sun symbol then connected to the Eye of Providence? And if so, can we put in a reference to the Teletubbies, which has an all-seeing baby-faced sun. -- Solipsist 12:22, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have heard several statements saying Horus, and one or two connecting therefore to Mithras, but I've seen the symbol on the article for Ars_Goetia, a book on Demonology. Druminor 00:24, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Sun and Moon are two of the three Lesser Lights in Freemasonry, which (together with the Master of the Lodge) serve to illuminate the Great Light, or Volume of Sacred Law / Bible. As part of our NY State ritual goes: "As the Sun rules the day and the Moon governs the night, so should the Worshipful Master, with equal regularity rule and govern the Lodge". I'm trying to stress this to show there is no worship of the Sun (or moon) involved. Saxophobia (talk) 17:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Freemasonry

The answer to the question Is the eye and pyramid a masonic symbol? provided in the Anti-Masonry Faq is very informative.

Loremaster 17:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but the article already says that the conection between the great seal and masonry is a common misconception, and gives a similar link in the External links section. -- Solipsist 18:17, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Although I was aware of the comment in the article you are refering to, I didn't notice the link. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Loremaster 01:18, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"It is a common misconception that the Eye of Providence and unfinished pyramid show the influence of Freemasonry in the founding of the United States. Although Benjamin Franklin, one of the members of the original design committee for the Great Seal, was a Freemason, it appears that he was not responsible for introducing the symbol, and may not even have been aware of it."

I think this is factually inaccurate, as well as misleading. It could be reworded as one POV amongst many, but should not be expressing itself thus in the voice of the narrative. Sam Spade 18:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sam you should know better than to make unexplained deletions.

Now why is it you think this information is POV? It is certainly true that many American's believe that pyramid and EyeOProv are on the one dollar bill as a result of the influence of Freemasonry on the founding fathers. So the only real question is whether these are in fact Masonic symbols. We have two references from Masonic web sites which say they are not. To counter the argument, we would need to find a credible reference that says they are.

I'm not an expert on the iconography of the Freemasons, but I have taken the time to look into it, and to be honest, the explanation on the Rosslyn Templar's site rings true. The unfinished pyramid, or even a completed pyramid doesn't appear to be a symbol used by the Masons. The triangle, pentagram and the obelisk are, but the pyramid isn't. On the whole, Masons use a semi-circular glory, usually with extended rays from the base. You can find examples of full glories as in the Sun Face above, but I haven't seen any full glories surrounding the EyeOProv, nor an EyeOProv enclosed in a triangle - although these were Christian symbols.

There is a chance that William Barton, on drawing the Great Seal, was trying to please Benjamin Franklin (and if you are into conspiracy theories no doubt other behind-the-scenes Masons). But if so, it appears he got his symbols mixed up - and it would be surprising that controlling Masons didn't set him right. Alternatively, I might suggest that the Masons were still busy inventing their traditions and symbols at the same time that the Great Seal was being created. Both drew on symbols and ideas that were popular at the time, and that's about it.

There is good evidence for Masonic involvement in the erection of the Washington Monument, but then that's an obelisk. -- Solipsist 20:32, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I say again. Who is it that is saying there is another POV? -- Solipsist 21:22, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

? You freely admitted most peopels think it is a masonic symbol. I don't see what we are debating here. Sam Spade 21:41, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I freely admit that is what many people think, but the evidence says otherwise. Therefore it is useful to include a paragraph that explains why this is a common misconception. -- Solipsist 21:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Obviously some masons (and others assumably) think it is a misconception; many others disagree.[1]

Sam Spade 15:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I take it that the disagreement section you are refering to is the quote from The Insider at the bottom. The Insider appears to be a newsletter for conspiracy theorists - so not terribly impressive. It isn't particularly well researched either - one of the links they give for examples of the EyeOProv as a Masonic symbol, is actually for the Society of OddFellows who split from the Masons around the 1720s about 50 years earlier than the Great Seal. Plus they are based in England - have they ever had a footprint in the US?

The one interesting link on that page is to this Canadian Freemasonry site showing an example of the EyeOProv in a triangle and another in a triangle related context. However, further research shows that these were published in an 1880 journal in England, called The Kneph and seems to have been largely attacked by mainstream and American Masons. Even if The Kneph was controversial in Masonic circles they probably didn't randomly make up the symbols illustrated, so that suggests the EyeOProv in a triangle was being used by some Masons at the tail end of the 19th century.

Now I thought that example was going to contradict the Rosslyn Templars article. But checking it again, they in fact say there is no example of an EyeOProv inside a triangle in The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor, the definitive almanac on Masonic symbols of 1819 and they would have expected to see one if it was being used as a Masonic symbol in 1782. So it looks like Masons have picked up this symbol combination later in the 19th century quite possibly as a result of seeing it used in America.

So ultimately that references tells you nothing. Remember, you need to be proving that Masons were using these symbols prior to 1782 and so could have plausibly influence the design of the Great Seal. It is of no help to demonstrate that people in the 20th century believe there is a connection, that is not in doubt, the question is whether they are correct to believe it. If they are not, there is no point continuing the mistake here. -- Solipsist 21:47, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think your confusing NPOV and objective truth. Our job is not to present the objective truth, but rather to cite the various verifiable POV's. So far, we seem to have 2 POV's. One is that this is based on a mason symbol, the other that it is not. Why not present both sides of the argument, and let the reader be the judge of who they want to believe? Sam Spade 21:55, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you want to expand the section, go ahead, but I wouldn't put too much credence on conspiracy theorists as the proponents for saying that there is a connection to the Masons - that's more or less implied by saying they are conspiracy theorists.

I suggest you read the Great Seal article for more background. It goes into more depth about the symbolism on the Great Seal, this article is only really interesting in the Eye of Providence part.

You seem to be forgetting that the starting point for this is that you deleted a paragraph which is relevant. That is not expanding on either side of an argument. Perhaps you would like to restore the paragraph now. -- Solipsist 22:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I have read Great Seal of the United States, its what I linked to here from. I'll restore the paragraph, but w some adjustments of POV. Sam Spade 22:14, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The discussion still seems suspect in that it appears to clearly assert the truth of the Masonic conspiracy rather than that it is a speculation. The citation is indirect. I can't verify this. It needs either to be weaselified to ensure that it says that this is a point of view of the origins, or alternatively the citation needs to be considerably improved. As this problem has existed for some time, it is about time it was resolved. Spenny 08:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I saw the Eye of Ra(Horus)[2] on the wall inside a Freemason temple while I was watching the documentary "Secrets of the Freemasons" on National Geographic. I was confused as the Masons claim to be Christian. The only explanation I can see is that the Egyptians used the Eye to divide one into fractions. Heeds 02:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Conspiracy debunkers?"

"Today some conspiracy debunkers link the symbol with conspiracy organizations, especially Adam Weishaupt's Bavarian Illuminati. This is possibly the only context in which the Eye of Providence is shown actually embedded in a pyramid. The eye is meant to be the eye of Lucifer."

I... I do not grok. Surely this blurb was intended to read "Today some conspiracy theorists...", not "debunkers". Is this a particularly subtle vandalism, or am I completely missing the point? And If I am, would it be possible to get a citation for this claim?

Yes, I don't really know much about some of those smaller sections at the end that have been added over time. That particular sentence was more or less present from the earliest versions of the article and it was indeed originally conspiracy theorists, so it looks like a minor vandalism problem. -- Solipsist 22:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eye of Lucifer

The Illuminati version of the Eye in the pyramid is not the only version to be found. It is also represented in a pyramid in the Israeli supreme court. Just out of interest 1776 is also the date of the founding of the Bavarian Illuminati - Jefferson approved of the Illuminati and was in correspondence with Adam Weishaupt.

Time Warner logo?

User:Jolomo questions whether Time Warner did indeed have a logo based on the Eye of Providence. I say, 'good catch' - it looks dubious. At a guess the logo that is being refered to is the eye/ear logo from 1993 that is shown as figure 5 on this page (quite an interesting article besides). There is plenty of other documentary evidence to say that that symbol, designed by Steff Geissbuhler, was a combination of eye and ear - Time Warner being a sound and vision company. It may echo the shape of the Eye of Horus (or have been influenced by it), but that's not the same thing as the Eye of Providence and it clearly isn't intended to have any conotations of an all-seeing-eye. As there doesn't seem to be any connection, I'll delete it. -- Solipsist 15:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Biblical references

on the Great Seal of the United States page, it says that the eye of providence is referenced in the Christian Bible, but I cannot find reference to that or the all-seeing eye, using my (primitive) Biblical index. Can anyone find any bibilical references? I think that such references should be here. That's why I came to this article (among other reasons) McKay 05:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect template

I've changed the way "all-seeing eye" works, for more information see "Talk:All-seeing eye (disambiguation)" McKay 23:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Origins

While the symbol of the eye is indeed ancient its combination with the triangle is said to appear no earlier than the 17th century according to the above article. It may in fact be a century older if not more. A 16th century artist Jacopo Carruci Pontormo (b. 1494 d. 1557) used the symbol of the eye within the triangle in his painting “Supper at Emmaus” (1525)[3]. The symbol is placed above the figure of Christ indicating its Christian affiliation as the eye of providence in its original context. It is interesting to note that Pontormo was a pupil of Leonardo Da Vinci, quite possibly implicating the latter in the symbol’s origin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.137.174.246 (talk) 14:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC). --Romuald.C.K 13:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eye of Horus

Is in no way the eye of the Christian God for The God from the bible was in horror at the Eygptian`s many gods.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.229.113 (talk • contribs) 23:39, 19 January 2007

Then it's a good thing that the article doesn't say that it is, isn't it? MSJapan 00:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pentagram?

I know that pentagrams are way scarier, but they only have five sides. Fixed. Erissian 09:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

trivial sections

not that this information is inappropriate, but as sections, these are extraneous. im placing them here to be integrated or expanded. --PopeFauveXXIII 08:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

==Salt Lake Temple== The [[Salt Lake Temple]] of [[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]] uses the symbol in its [[Temple architecture (Latter-day Saints)|architecture]] as a reminder that God sees all. ==Virgin of Garabandal== According to some sources {{Fact|date=February 2007}}during the first [[Marian apparitions|apparition]] of the [[Blessed Virgin Mary|Virgin Mary]] at the village of [[San Sebastian de Garabandal|Garabandal]], she was accompanied by two identical angels on either side of her, and the flaming Eye above them all. ==Cao Dai== The [[Vietnam]]ese religion [[Cao Dai]], as well as a number of other churches, uses the Eye of Providence (specifically, the left eye) within a triangle to represent God. ==Illuminati== Today some [[conspiracy theory|conspiracy theorists]] link the symbol with conspiracy organizations, especially [[Adam Weishaupt]]'s Bavarian [[Illuminati]]. This is possibly the only context in which the Eye of Providence is shown actually embedded in a pyramid. Some say the eye is meant to represent the [[Eye of Horus]] ("the new born Son," "God's Son.") or even the eye of [[Lucifer]]. The all-seeing eye is also mentioned along with Illuminati in [[Dan Brown]]'s Book [[Angels and Demons]]

(Fair use image removed by ImageBacklogBot) Took the colorado state seal image out until it can be reincorporated into the text of the article. --PopeFauveXXIII 22:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

cbs

Why dont you add the CBS logo, the all seeing eye? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.232.1.50 (talk) 21:46, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia section

i changed the name of the trivia section from current and recent usage to notable usage of the symbol, and removed the following references as cruft:

The former Information Awareness Office
The logo of The All-Seeing Eye. A computer software application designed to help Internet gamers find game servers.
The pyramid and all-seeing eye are depicted on the covers of various albums by the 1960's psychedelic band the 13th Floor Elevators. It is also seen on the cover of The Prize Fighter Inferno's album, My Brother's Blood Machine and on the cover of Klaxons' album Myths of the near future.
The Eye of Providence is used in the cover art for The Illuminatus! Trilogy
In Yu-Gi-Oh!, the Eye of the Providence is part from the Millennium Puzzle, one of the Millennium Items.

In The Pick of Destiny, the character KG, portrayed by Kyle Gass is seen wearing a headband with the Eye of Providence drawn on it with a sharpie in the scene where he and the character JB are trying to record a 'masterpiece'.
Madonna wears this symbol on the back of her jean jacket in the movie Desperately Seeking Susan.
Singer Michael Jackson uses this image to show his self-deification as a pop icon in some of his videos.
The all-seeing eye is a main feature of Lara Croft: Tomb Raider.
In the movie 'The Bandits' with Billy Bob Thorton and Bruce Willis, during a robbery Bruce Willis has the bank manager change the blinds of a one dollar bill from the back to the front, with the all-seeing eye not watching them.
The all seeing eye is seen writen on the floor of the lab in blood after completing the game Assassin's Creed

my criteria for inclusion was whether it seemed likely that a reference to the subject might ever be made to fit into the article proper. if you disagree with any of these removals, by all means establish the notability by fitting the information into the article somewhere. the items above are mostly pop-culture; this symbol is so pervasive in that arena that a list including all of them could run on for many, many pagelengths. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 09:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

oh, and additionally, to whomever keeps adding the Information Awareness Office to this list, it is briefly mentioned in the United States section. expanding that section would make for a far more interesting article than a short, redundant mention here. theres actually an interesting story about how the logo was made more generic (pyramid sans eye) as a result of public outcry over the draconian imagery of the original. id be happy to do it myself, but i probably wont anytime in the near future. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 09:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then you would like to keep it here, because this was the former logo of the Information Awareness Office and it is of historical importance. Furthermore it was only linked as example of actual use. The Eye of Providence is visible there without doubt. There is no way you can distract that fact. We could also add the MI5 Logo that is another Eye of Providence logo or we could refer to the Eye of Providence that is visible in the Supreme Court of Jerusalem, Israel. Please, make this place a place of wisdom and not of censorship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.175.96 (talk) 11:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not censoring anybody. the trivia section in this article is a magnet for unecessary references. per my statements above, i have been stewarding it. i believe that the reference is unecessary here because there is a reference to it in a previous section that could be expanded, even as much as a subsection. Here, it is redundant. i will continue to remove this link. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 01:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I give up. i readded it to pad the section a little and set the notability precedent more clearly. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 02:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Salt Lake Temple

I'm not opposed to adding things like this per se (sombody said earlier that the symbol is used on the supreme court of israel), but i really dont think they should be added unless a picture exists. i think we should start a picture gallery for these, and leave the trivia section for very notable uses such as seals, logos, and currencies that havent been mentioned elsewhere in the article. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 01:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Esoteric section

I have removed this as the references provided do not support the claims made. Mangoe (talk) 16:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Tathagata

According to Diamond Sutra the Tathagata is said to have the human eye, the divine eye, the eye of insight, the eye of transcendent wisdom and the Buddha eye.

Is there any literature whether there is a connection of/from those eyes to the eye of Providence? I would like to mention the fact, but I don't know how. that article according to my perception does not give place for some other type of eye.

Austerlitz -- 88.75.210.202 (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

oh, the article says the following: "Buddha is also regularly referred to as the "Eye of the World" throughout Buddhist scriptures (e.g. Mahaparinibbana Sutta) and is represented as a trinity in the shape of a triangle known as the Tiratna or Triple Gem.

Austerlitz -- 88.75.210.202 (talk) 17:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Urna

[5]
[6] Here it is said: "The All-Seeing Eye is one of many forms of reflective eye-charm used as a talisman against this danger. In its specifically protective role, the All-Seeing Eye is always on guard to protect the bearer from evil glances. A similar talismanic function was assigned to the protective Wadjet Eye of Ancient Egypt and the Third Eye of Buddha. The common eye sees only the outside of things, and judges by that, but the 'all seeing eye' pierces through, and reads the heart and the soul, finding there capacities which the outside didn't indicate or promise, and which the other kind couldn't detect."

Austerlitz -- 88.75.207.21 (talk) 11:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MI5/SS Logo

File:MI5.jpg

Original MI5 logo. Believed to be pre-1955 or as part of her 1950's to 1970's official insignia ^{[citation needed]} It features the 'Eye of Providence', also known as the 'all-seeing eye'.

Should the MI5/SS logo be mentioned in this article? I believe it is pre-1955 but have also read that it was used from the 1950's to 1970's. Any more information on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.24.33 (talk) 21:41, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Masonic usage

OK... Last week I reverted an edit because I wanted to verify the informaion myself... I now have, so I think we need to discuss it. Multiple reliable sources state that the earliest use of the eye of provedence as a Masonic emblem comes in 1797 (with the publication of Webb's Monitor). However, Steven Bullock's book Revolutionary Brotherhood contains a photograph (on page 88) of a Summons (ie a notice that a meeting is due to take place) from Ancient Lodge No. 2 in Philidelphia, dated 1760, that includes the eye. It seems that we have conflict between the sources (with multiple secondary sources definitively stating 1797... but a primary source clearly indicating an earlier date).

Now, Bullock does not actually discuss this Summons or the use of the eye in his book (he simply includes a picture of it, as an illustration), so it could be OR to discuss it (it would certainly be OR for us to draw any conclusions from it.) The question is whether this Summons is enough for us to change what we say in the section (and if so, how we should word it)? Blueboar (talk) 16:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

this evidence is interesting. however, i believe the freemasonry section has been substantially gutted--i would wager that 90+% of the visitors to this article are interested in associations between the eye/pyramid on the back of the dollar bill and an alleged freemasonic-illuminati-conspiracy. there is no argument that both the eye of providence and triangles/pyramid figures are prominent symbols of freemasonry. while we are required to avoid speculation, the facts should be presented in this section in a way which acknowledges, neutrally, that the subject of discussion is a secret society--and as such, speculation is made about it based on extant public evidence. that is the only way to resolve NPOV policy and the interest of the people who look up this article. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 01:26, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Um... not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that no one says these are both symbols, or are you saying they do? If the latter... actually there is argument. While the Eye is a Masonic symbol, the Pyramid isn't. Blueboar (talk) 02:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pyramids are not publicly acknowledged symbols of freemasonry, but triangles are prominent. I'm not interested in starting a huge argument here, im just saying that people who visit this article are probably interested in a complete breakdown of the facts and common speculation regarding the reverse of the great seal as it appears on the back of the one-dollar bill. 50% or more of this information has been removed from the section. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 22:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, people interested in the great seal should probably read the article on the Great Seal of the United States. That article goes into great detail as to its history and symbology (including, I might add a solidly referenced debunk of the idea that the Masons were involved). Blueboar (talk) 00:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]