Talk:Nelson Mandela

Left-Hand House?

Can someone verify or cite the bit in the Early Life section about it being called the Left-Hand House? --Blckhawk1234 (talk) 23:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC) (Forgot to log in)

video about hymn of MK

I stumbled upon this video on youtube and searched for additional information on the hymn/song of MK on wikipedia and with google, I could not find any information about it, but I found some blogs and news articles. and some quotes: Quotes: "Kill the Boer, Kill the Farmer" - Peter Mokaba (ANC). "When Mandela dies we will kill you whites like flies" - Mzukizi Gaba (ANC). the last one is something that is very unbelivable when you read this article in wikipedia, isn't it something to add for balance as a "quote about mandela"? 130.251.167.63 (talk) 09:26, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The video is discussed here, giving the words and translation as "Hamba kahle mkhonto we Sizwe, Tihna Abantu bomkhonto Sizimisele Ukuwa bulala woma lamabunu – We members of Umkhonto are prepared to kill all the Boers." The video is apparently an excerpt from a short documentary called "The Songs They Sing"; as far as I can tell, this clip started circulating in 2006 and may have come from an advocacy website called African Crisis. The recording seems genuine and the translation seems like a reasonable interpretation. The event was in 1992, possibly after the Bisho massacre or similar event where black ANC members had been killed. The song was widely sung at funerals and political rallies at the time. In the video, Mandela's head is slightly bowed and he raises his fist in a solemn salute (to the fallen comrade?) but does not appear to be singing. Ronnie Kasrils (shown singing with Mandela) says the following about the song: "Although we sang 'Hamba kahle Umkhonto... bulala amabhunu' (go well Umkhonto... kill the boers) we explained that we were referring to a system and the security forces that upheld it, and not a race group. When it is sung today it is in the context of the burial of MK combatants and the refrain goes: 'Thina sisimisele ukuphila nawo wona amabhunu' (we are prepared to live with the boers). And that implies living together in peace and harmony." (A Time for War and a Time for Peace, memorial lecture to Job Tabane, delivered by Ronnie Kasrils at the invitation of the Gauteng Political Education and Training Unit, June 25, 2008).

The other two quotes don't have much to do with Mandela. "Kill the Boer" was a liberation song sung by Umkhonto we Sizwe members, made infamous by Peter Mokaba. The Mzukisi Gaba quote is a threat he made to two policemen arresting him on a charge of drunken driving. He apparently apologised and his remark was condemned by the ANC; see this article and this follow up. Zaian (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Calling the song a hymn might be problematic from an NPOV pov. It seems to have evolved into something like that if the use at funerals is as described, with its revised lyrics, but the original use wasn't as a hymn unless you want to convey a tendentious assertion like "the ANC worshipped violence."

What would it would mean to use this material in an NPOV way as contextual information about Mandela? The query implies that it would be as bad or negative information introduced to provide "balance" to positive views or tone. IMO that's not how to see it, NPOV.

Both items point to the fact that Mandela has operated in complex and difficult political contexts with pressures from many directions from people whose views he didn't always share but with whom he had to cooperate, inside the ANC, but also negotiating partners. Peter Mokaba was famous, or notorious, as leader of the ANCYL (though well past his own youth), for manipulating anger, impatience and despair among youth for personal political advantage within the ANC. At the same time, there was something there to manipulate. Mandela had to deal with both facts. One of the aims of the "third force" figures behind the Bisho massacre and similar events of the period (e.g. Chris Hani's assassination in early 1993) was to derail the complex constitutional negotiations by touching off anger and violent attempts at vengeance.

How do we interpret this song in 1992? On one hand it might have stoked anger; on the other hand it may have been a sort of pressure valve expressing felt anger in a way not immediately violent. I imagine Ronnie Kasrils (at the time MK's military head I believe) seeing it both lights, as preparing the forces for a fight if rightwing violence expanded, and as helping to control undisciplined responses.

After the constitutional settlement, the song does seem to have been converted into a quasi-hymn honoring those who fought or prepared to fight. But the changed lyrics define and memorialize the ultimate end of their acts as creating a normal, peaceful society.

As for Mzukisi Gaba's 1997 quote, even if taken at its most literal, or under an "in vino veritas" view as exposing a true underlying desire, rather than as just a stupid drunken expression of anger, it would be evidence that Mandela's influence in 1997 was restraining people from acting on violent views or impulses. Gaba says in effect that for him & others to act as he spoke would be to betray Mandela and go against his wishes.

Chris Lowe (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it deserves inclusion in this article anyway. Violence in struggle songs is an interesting debate, but it's got very little to do with Mandela. Mandela apearing at a funeral in 1992 where this song was sung is not notable in Mandela's biography. Circulating this video clip pushes an agenda along the lines of "Mandela might look like a saint but this video proves that he actually wants to kill us". Frankly, it doesn't stick. Zaian (talk) 06:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if the previous poster is pushing an agenda too, by censoring the inclusion of the video. 130.251.167.67 (talk) 09:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

If you disagree with the points raised in the discussion above, you are welcome to argue the point, but please Assume good faith. When someone raised the question about this song, I actually spent quite a bit of time and effort researching it and describing what I found, and then weighing up whether to add something to the article. I don't appreciate your anonymous accusations that I was censoring information to push an agenda. Zaian (talk) 09:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Replace Image

It may just be me, but I do feel that we need a better image for Mandela. The present image is of a low quality, and I think we need a new image. --EclipseSSD (talk) 17:46, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps this image [1] or this one [2] if they aren't copyright? --EclipseSSD (talk) 17:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Those are great images, but very unlikely to be available under a free licence. However, US federal government images are. See for example [3], [4], and more at [5], although some of those are copyright. Zaian (talk) 19:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

[6], [7] I'm not sure if this website is copyrighted or not, but if it isn't it, it would make a good image.--EclipseSSD (talk) 17:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation

Whatever is listed there is *not* the pronunciation of what precedes it, "Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela". Scanlyze (talk) 00:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

It is, just not all of it. Nelson doesn't seem to be represented here. Just his middle name, and his last name. Middle name in native tongue? --Blckhawk1234 (talk) 15:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Nelson Mandela Religion

I think the article should also mencione what are Nelson Mandela religious beliefs. He was raised as a methodist but now I think he's more probably an agnostic.85.242.239.13 (talk) 19:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

If you can find a reference for his religious beliefs, it can be included in the article. Zaian (talk) 07:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Mandela.com

more about mandela can be found at www.mandela.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.48.172 (talk) 11:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Communist Party Membership

... and authorship of the essay "How to be a good Communist" - Why isn't that mentioned. --41.14.118.198 (talk) 14:15, 18 June 2009 (UTC)