Talk:F. Scott Fitzgerald

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Ginerva King

Is there any reason why Ginerva King isn't mentioned, but Zelda is? As far as I've read, she was the basis for several of his female characters, and strongly influenced him for the rest of his life. "The Perfect Hour" details the relationship and its effects well. If it's agreed upon that she is worthy of mention, I'll add a section (or at least a bit in "Early Years")TrevorRC (talk) 20:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, Zelda's much more important than Ginevra, but I agree that Ginevra needs to be added. --JayHenry (talk) 03:35, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Influenced

Gilles Deleuze could be added as someone influenced by Fitzgerald. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.16.181.66 (talk) 23:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

"upper middle class family"

Really? I've only read one biography of Fitzgerald, but it emphasised the fact that Fitzgerald had comparitively humble upbringings, and felt out of place at Newman and Princeton (something we can see evidenced in his work) because of them. I also remember how it stated that Fitzgerald's father was always in financial difficulties. - User:81.106.235.229 14:36, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Reply

Well, this is an interesting situation. F. Scott Fitzgerald was a man with a foot in two different worlds. This unique situation would be the main catalyst that would fuel his writing.

One foot, that of his mother, Mary (Mollie) McQuillan, was that of wealth, albeit modest wealth. His maternal grandfather, Philip Francis McQuillan, was a wealthy wholesale grocer, but not extremely wealthy and not in the inner circles of the upper echelons of society. The other foot was his father’s world. His father, Edward Fitzgerald, was from a middle class background, but his father was somewhat of a dreamer, and wanted to “move-up.” His mother had become accustomed to a certain level, especially in that of social outings, and his father wanted her to have that. When he was working they socialized in circles above their income. They wanted to party with the well-to-do on an income of much less. His father had started a wicker furniture company, then when it failed became a sales executive for Procter and Gamble, from which he was later fired from, in March 1908. About this time, July 1908, his mother inherited $125,000 dollars from her father’s estate. This was in 1908, at a time when the average annual income was around $1,000. That means that at the age of 12 F. Scott’s parents had enough annual income to last for the rest of their lives, if they lived modestly. A provision in his maternal grandmother's will, Louisa McQuillan, left money to pay for his schooling. From that point on there was money for school. He attended Saint Paul Academy and Summit School in Saint Paul, Minnesota from 1908–1911. He then attended Newman School, a prep school in Hackensack, New Jersey, in 1911–12. And of course he entered Princeton University in 1913.

Despite this, his family and then himself still felt like outsiders. They wanted to rub elbows with the Vanderbilt’s, the Hills, and families with millions. They weren’t happy with what they had they wanted more. But the thing that really made them feel like outsiders had nothing to do with money, it was because they were Irish and Catholic. This is the real feeling that would alienate F. Scott from the rest of Summit Avenue, and Princeton crowds.

The house on Summit Avenue is almost a metaphor for his life, this split life, and the stories he would write. The house at 600 Summit was the “last” of nice homes. The street was one of the richest streets in all of the Midwest. But 600 was “poorest” house in neighborhood. And up Dale Street to the north, the houses became middle-class at best, while the houses the other way, down each end of Summit, were the homes of St. Paul’s elite. The James J. Hill House, at 240 Summit, was seven blocks east. The Horace and Clotilde Irvine House, 1006 Summit, seven blocks west, is now the home of the Minnesota Governor. F. Scott would play with kids in both directions as a child. He would straddle two worlds, be a bridge, or conduit, to each. He liked the children across Dale, but liked the money the other way. This would show up in The Great Gatsby. There was Manhattan, there was Great Neck, and then there was a place, a world, in between, the little service station (Flushing, Queens) that marked the halfway point. This contrast was what most intrigued F. Scott, how do you get from one world to other, what happens to people. A beautiful woman like his mother, or wife, Zelda, could get into the richest parties because they were very beautiful and young ladies. But men of the same age could not get into to “those” parties.

F. Scott, just like his father, tried to “marry-up”. I am not saying that either one of them weren’t in love, but both of them tried to marry a young lady whose family had better prospects than their own.

So, his father was in “financial difficulties” because he did not know how to manage money, and wanted to party with the “high and mighty” of the rich. They felt out of place because they were Irish and Catholic, and were trying to swim in the pond of the rich English Protestant.

If some author made you feel like he came from struggling lower-class poverty this was not the case. Grandma was always there for the family. If his father or him felt sorry during his childhood, it was only when the went to parties, or to play with rich children, at places that were maybe above their "station" and then came home and compared the difference. If they had done the opposite and gone to parties, and only played with children of drastically lesser means, then when the came home, they would have felt pretty good about themselves. I would guess that if F. Scott had an unhappy childhood, some part of it was due to Edward’s wanting to move into higher circles, and maybe to the point of being unhappy about it at times and young Scott picking up on this theme.

So, part of his childhood was “RICH”, that of his grandmother’s, part of it more “MIDDLE-CLASS”, that of his father. I split the difference.

• PS: Have you noticed the striking parallel from Jay Gatsby from that of Kennedy’s?
  • Jay Gatsby – Outsider-German bootlegger turned stockbroker who aspires for a higher inner circle. Gatsby is thought to have killed a woman in a car accident. Gatsby is shot, almost a “reap-what-you-sow” retribution.
  • Joseph Kennedy – Outsider-Irish Catholic bootlegger turned stockbroker who aspires for a higher inner circle. JFK is shot. Ted kills a woman in a car accident.

And the book was written 1924!!!!

PPS: Men like Donald Trump have been in "financial difficulties." Trump has had his companies file for bankruptcy at least twice that I know of. But that has nothing to do with his living class status.

To give you an idea of who lived on Summit Avenue, James J. Hill was one resident.

James J. Hill's home, 240 Summit Avenue, St. Paul, Minnesota

WikiDon 20:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Summit Avenue

For more on the houses of Summit Avenue:

• Photos of the neighborhood
• Summit Avenue East Architectural and House History Information, Part 1
• Summit Avenue East Architectural and House History Information, Part 2
• F. Scott Fitzgerald Walking Tour of St. Paul

472 Holly

"This sturdy brownstone house is the home of Scott's grandmother, Louisa McQuillan. Her husband, Philip Francis McQuillan, died in 1877 at the age of 43, twenty years before Scott was born. Mr. McQuillan began as a bookkeeper in a wholesale grocery business. He soon owned the company and also the tallest building in downtown St. Paul. Mrs. McQuillan's brother, John H. Allen, had been a partner in the business. He eventually assumed control, and built a large home at 335 Summit Ave. 472 Holly is one of Mrs. McQuillan's smaller houses. The largest house was downtown on 10th Street, where 500 guests could be entertained. The McQuillan’s also maintained a winter home in Washington D.C., which is where Edward Fitzgerald and Molly McQuillan were married in 1890."

Louisa McQuillan House, 623 Summit Avenue

"Across Dale Street, we can see one of Grandma McQuillan's houses, built after her husband died in 1877. She might have had a horse and carriage there. Summit Avenue was thought of as just a wide country lane upon which people exercised their horses each day, stopping to chat with their neighbors on the way. Some people stabled their horses on Maiden Lane by the Cathedral. Others boarded their horses at Kittson's Stable and Racetrack at Snelling and University Ave."

Many of these houses are so large that now they are multi-unit apartment buildings and condominiums. WikiDon

All very good points, and thank you for explaining this to me. However, I was wondering, where in the novel does it say that Gatsby is an Irish Catholic? His originally surname doesnt sound Irish at all, and (if I remember right) a Lutheran minister conducts his funeral. - User:81.106.235.229 14:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Your right, I have spent so much time autobiographizing the book to Fitzgerald I forget he changed the character. The character's name was Jimmy Gatz, of Prussian-German decent. The origin is Gato, which means Gate, Gatsby is a "Gateway". This is a gateway to another world. I'll remove that other note. Forgive. WikiDon 16:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Nice work

Although this is perhaps not constructive (or related to any of the above comments), I'm writing to say that this page is beautifully written. With more work, it would be a good candidate for a Wikipedia featured article. --Andrew Phelps 06:02, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Move passage from "The Jazz Age" to "Marriage to Zelda"

"Fitzgerald drew largely upon his wife’s intense personality in his writings, at times quoting direct segments of her personal diaries in his work. Zelda made mention of this in a 1922 mock review in the New York Tribune, saying that “[i]t seems to me that on one page I recognized a portion of an old diary of mine which mysteriously disappeared shortly after my marriage, and also scraps of letters which, though considerably edited, sound to me vaguely familiar. In fact, Mr. Fitzgerald—I believe that is how he spells his name—seems to believe that plagiarism begins at home" (Zelda Fitzgerald: The Collected Writings, 388)."

I say: move it from "The Jazz Age" to "Marriage to Zelda" who agree?--Alik007 21:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Fitzgerald's funeral

Did Dorothy Parker really attend it? I think not but don't have access to anything at the moment that would settle the question. - User:4.236.165.189 23:38, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Editing 18 August 2006

I'd like to put my mark on this article, in the hopes that—as stated above—this could be a damned good featured article candidate. Including cleaning up the biography (which I started to organize, but will pick through later this evening), categorizing an expanded list of his works, citations, listing of background resources, links, etc., but also a bit of discussion on how his works impacted american literature (including references to his influences) and why they endure. Hopefully we can grab that "featured article status." —ExplorerCDT 21:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Death

I believe I read this (long ago) in Sheila Graham's account-- that Fitzgerald was eating a chocolate bar when he dropped dead. It always seemed like an aptly pleasure-seeking way for him to go-- and not a bad way for anyone to go. Worth including?

Oh, also... it's reap-what-you-SOW." --Katestyr 20:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism

I have no trouble with commenting on Fitzgerald's anti-semitism, but the small section devoted to it is poorly written in comparison with the rest of the page. Someone needs to clean up the structure and really underscore why this warrents its own section (and not just a line or two in another section). - User:207.96.169.76 18:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Short Stories

Let's discuss F.Scott Fitzgerald's short stories here. There are many questions on how Fitzgerald uses themes and symbols in his stories. - User:69.218.186.58 23:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I think there should be a lock on this article due to some amounts of vandalism in it. Since I never got to see the article beforehand, hopefully someone can revert the titles of "The Homosexual Age," "the pimpin years," and "sex and shit." JWat 02:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to submit it to be partially Locked Wachapon2 18:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Reputation?

Anything on his reputation? User:Veronicaaa 16:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

"The Jazz Age"?

Is it just me or is something wrong with the following passage: "Recast as This Side of Paradise, about the flapper generation of the Roaring 20s, it was accepted by Scribner's in the fall of 1919"?

I mean if he was writing in 1919, did he have ESP as to what the following decade would bring?

Bad Summary

"He finished four novels, left a fifth unfinished" How do you leave a fifth of finished novels unfinished. Fix it or deprotect it. --71.168.37.81 (talk) 12:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It's an elliptical statement. "He finished four novels, left a fifth [novel] unfinished." This is not obvious from the context? --JayHenry (talk) 02:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think left is the right term. He died before it was completed, so it wasn't like it was on purpose. "... but died before the fifth was completed." would seem more appropriate. Anyone agreed? No Stahr (talk) 01:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The result of a vandalized tag

I was on the This Side of Paradise page and noticed this, removed it, and found it also on the Fitzgerald biography page. In editing, it's a plain "Fitzgerald," written inside two sets of brackets. I don't know how widespread the usage of this code is, but I'm going to give it at least a cursory glance. It produces the following message:

Does anyone know how to address this, beyond simply removing the code? Is there some starting point from which all future "Fitzgerald" tags will produce that message? Emailnuevo (talk) 16:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

It's been fixed. What was happening was something that should be happening. When you put a page name between two curly brackets in WP, it transcludes the page. (Meaning, whatever is at the page that's being directed to will show up on the page where the brackets are.) If there's no prefix ("Wikipedia:", "Wikipedia talk:", etc.), the code assumes something in the Template namespace. That particular template produces what you see above. The template page had been vandalized, so it was transcluding something silly. Now, as you see, it transcludes what it's supposed to. You should probably replace the tag on This Side of Paradise, and please don't remove it from other articles. —  MusicMaker5376 18:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Spoiler

Someone might want to remove the spoiler in the quotation from Jay Gatsby's funeral. Maybe just attribute it as a quote from the book? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sugarfreelemonade (talk • contribs) 22:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Under the Biltmore clock

I'm not sure but I think that is one of his works, can any one verify and add that. 71.115.184.111 (talk) 22:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Influences

Added Spengler as an influence. Citation: http://books.google.com/books?id=VDCWH1ljfhsC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=fitzgerald+and+spengler&source=web&ots=AfBVT4tDrW&sig=Anjok6DcZo8xcyMIM3BKeek7EGw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result 98.207.239.32 (talk) 19:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Bob Dylan?

Bob Dylan says the words you've read all of F. Scott Fitzgerald's books in the song Ballad of a thin man. He is listing things that a certain person has accomplished in his life. Is this relevant as a topic discussion. I was thinking something like Media or Pop culture.

Profanity in "Hollywood Years" part of article

"while he lived with his f### buddy Sheilah Graham"

Tried to edit, but the edit page appears with the correct word "lover". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.226.144.165 (talk) 07:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

"A New Leaf" Incorrect Link

I don't know how to fix it, but the link in Fitzgerald's short stories goes to a movie not an article about his short story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.252.232 (talk) 20:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The dangers of DIY lit crit

"Most [critics/reviewers] were thrown off by its [Tender is the Night] five-part structure..." So are we to assume that they'd have been fine with a three-part structure, and even accepted a four-part structure, but five was just too much? PiCo (talk) 05:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Nathanael West

West was not killed on the way back from FSF's funeral, but from Mexico, where he had gone on a hunting trip. This happened the day after FSF's funeral and therefore has been equated in the popular imagination with the day before, probably to stimulate a sense of irony or tragedy commensurate with romanticised versions of writers' lives. --Anon

The text is also confusing because it states that Fitzgerald had two funerals, one in Los Angeles and one in Bethesda, Maryland. Perhaps the first was a memorial service? --72.70.10.100 (talk) 19:23, 20 June 2009 (UTC)