Talk:New World Order conspiracy theory

To become a Good Article

The New World Order (conspiracy theory) article is being improved by WikiProject Rational Skepticism, which seeks to improve the quality of articles dealing with science, pseudoscieces, pseudohistory and skepticism. Therefore, although remaining neutral, this article will be written from a rational skeptical perspective. Like it's name suggests, this article isn't about new world order as a fact in international relations (if you are interested in that subject, I suggest you read and possibly edit the new world order article instead). It's about paranoid conspiracy theories about a New World Order. By conspiracy theory, we mean any tentative theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful Machiavellian conspirators, such as a "secret team" or "shadow government". Conspiracy theories are often viewed with skepticism because they contrast with institutional analysis of historical or current events, and are not supported by conclusive evidence.

That being said, in order for the article to be judged a good article by the Wikipedia community, I am interested in collaborating with anyone who has created a user account to make it meet good article criteria.

This article primarily needs additional citations for verification. --Loremaster (talk) 20:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

After a lot of work, I consider the article to be relatively comprehensive. The thing we should now focus on is standardizing citations according to Wikipedia:Citing sources style guidelines. Does anyone care to help? --Loremaster (talk) 16:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

About "See also" sections

"See also" are a list, lists are worse then text. Wiki is not paper, we should have room to discuss all related issues, and "See also", which rarely discuss the linked items, give little indication why they are relevant. According to some Wikipedia administrators: 1) if something is in See also, try to incorporate it into main body 2) if something is in main body, it should not be in see also and therefore 3) good articles should not have See also sections even if the vast majority of articles have them. --Loremaster (talk) 23:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Loremaster, are you perhaps confusing "See Also" links with "External Links". I do know that there are editors (especially at Good Article Review) that feel ELs should be limited. I have yet to come across one that has expressed the same about "See Also" links. The entire point of "See Also" sections is to point the reader to tangentially related articles. We list articles in a "See Also" section when there is a connection between the two topics that isn't really worth discussing in the article. Blueboar (talk) 12:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Blueboar, I have been contributing to Wikipedia for over 5 years. During this time, I have improved the quality of numerous articles and some of them have appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article. So trust me when I say that I know everything you are telling me about See also sections and I am not confusing anything. I am simply proposing a better way of doings things that was suggested to me by a Wikipedia administrator 4 years ago. If you don't agree with this proposal, I can respect that. However, please stop lecturing me like I'm a newbie. ;) --Loremaster (talk) 23:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Loremaster, Please forgive me if I offended... that was not my intent. It really did look to me as if you had confused the two. I stand corrected. I do disagree with your reasoning for not including "See Also" sections. You say that your take on this reflects the opinion of an admin. OK. But even admins can hold unique or minority views on our practices. And individual admins get it wrong sometimes. If this view had consensus, we would not have "See Also" sections in almost all of our Featured and Good Articles (and we do). As to the inclusion of a "See Also" section in this article... that is a matter for local consensus. I think we should. Blueboar (talk) 14:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I am well aware that this view doesn't have consensus yet. That being said, beyond the reasons I have already given, my concern is that, since there is no requirement that a contributor explains why an internal link in the See also section is related to the suject of the article, cranks may and often do use See also sections to dump links that are only related to the subject in their creative imagination. --Loremaster (talk) 22:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Request for Semi-Protection

In light of repeated vandalism against the New World Order (conspiracy theory) article, which is bound to increase, can someone please request a semi-protection for both the article and it's talk page? I would do it myself but my time online is becoming limited. --Loremaster (talk) 17:21, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

IP vandalism

IP vandalism seems to be on the rise (probably sparked by the G-20 meetings and Obama's current trip to Europe). I have requested semi-protection. Blueboar (talk) 16:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. :)

Semi-protected per this edit. Blueboar (talk) 20:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

In light of recent cases of anonymous vandalism, does this mean that the semi-protection was removed? --Loremaster (talk) 13:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it ran out on May 3. ... I have requested that the page be semi-protected again, and asked that it last as long as possible this time. Blueboar (talk) 13:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI, anyone can request protection... see: Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. They are easy to do... For this article you would just add ===={{la|New World Order (conspiracy theory)}}==== to the TOP of the list, and explain the problem and desired result (a quick look at the other entires will show you the standard format). Blueboar (talk) 13:41, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

OK... it's been semi-protected again... till mid June. Blueboar (talk) 16:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. --Loremaster (talk) 06:47, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

History of the term

"American televangelist Pat Robertson argues that the modern use of the phrase "New World Order" originated in the early 20th century with English businessman Cecil Rhodes…"

This seems like an odd thing to put at the start of the "History of the term" section. The section deals primarily with how the term arose and acquired the varied connotations it has today, yet this paragraph goes on to describe Robertson's own conspiracy theory regarding Rhodes' use of the term. Of course, the reason to include the paragraph there is to note that Rhodes was among the first to use the term, but if that is true, shouldn't it be possible to find a source more reliable than Pat Robertson? If so, that source should be substituted for Robertson, and the part about Robertson's views on Rhodes scholars and so forth should be moved down into the "Conspiracy theories" section. If not, perhaps the whole paragraph should be placed in that section, as it has less to do with the history of the term and more to do with Robertson's views on the matter. A. Parrot (talk) 17:45, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I shared your puzzlement over the first sentence of that section when I first read this article many months ago but I came to understand that this section is about the conspiratorial connations that the word "new world order" has gained. That being said, I will start improving it in light of your comments. --Loremaster (talk) 17:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I've greatly improved the History of the term section. However, we still need a reliable source (that isn't a conspiracy theorist) for the claim that Rhodes was the first to use the term "new world order" as a synonym for "world government". If not, we need to determine who it really was. Can anyone look into this? --Loremaster (talk) 19:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Although I will continue to tweak it and add citations, I've radically improved the History of the term section (rendering my last comments and request above moot). --Loremaster (talk) 17:37, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Fusion Paranoia (an article)

In light of the requirement to subscribe to the Jerusalem Post in order to read the full text, I am posting it here due to it's importance as a reliable source for the New World Order (conspiracy theory) article:

FUSION PARANOIA

Jerusalem Post | 1-14-04 | Daniel Pipes

Some people believe in the lost continent of Atlantis and in unidentified flying objects (UFOs). Others worry about an 18th-century secret society called the Bavarian Illuminati, or a mythical Zionist-Occupied Government (ZOG) secretly running the United States.

What if these disparate elements shared beliefs, joined forces, won a much larger audience, broke out of their intellectual and political ghetto and became capable of challenging the premises of public life in the US?

This is the frightening prospect, soberly presented by Michael Barkun in his important, just-published book A Culture of Conspiracy: Apocalyptic Visions in Contemporary America. To understand the novelty of this potential requires knowing something about the history of conspiracy theories.

Fears of a petty conspiracy – a political rival or business competitor plotting to do you harm – are as old as the human psyche. But fears of a grand conspiracy – that the Illuminati or Jews plan to take over the world – go back only 900 years and have been operational for just two centuries, since the French Revolution. Conspiracy theories grew in importance from then until World War II, when two arch-conspiracy theorists, Hitler and Stalin, faced off against each other, causing the greatest blood-letting in human history.

This hideous spectacle sobered Americans, who in subsequent decades relegated conspiracy theories to the fringe, where mainly two groups promoted such ideas.

The politically disaffected: Blacks (Louis Farrakhan, Cynthia McKinney), the hard Right (John Birch Society, Pat Buchanan), and other alienated elements (Ross Perot, Lyndon LaRouche). Their theories imply a political agenda, but lack much of a following.

The culturally suspicious: These include "Kennedy assassinologists," "ufologists," and those who believe a reptilian race runs the earth and alien installations exist under the earth's surface. Such themes enjoy enormous popularity (a year 2000 poll found 43 percent of Americans believing in UFOs), but carry no political agenda.

THE MAJOR new development, reports Barkun, professor of political science in the Maxwell School at Syracuse University, is not just an erosion in the divisions between these two groups, but their joining forces with occultists, persons bored by rationalism. Occultists are drawn to what Barkun calls the "cultural dumping ground of the heretical, the scandalous, the unfashionable, and the dangerous" – such as spiritualism, Theosophy, alternative medicine, alchemy, and astrology.

Thus, the author who worries about the Secret Service taking orders from the Bavarian Illuminati is old school; the one who worries about a "joint Reptilian-Bavarian Illuminati" takeover is at the cutting edge of the new synthesis. These bizarre notions constitute what the late Michael Kelly termed "fusion paranoia," a promiscuous absorption of fears from any source whatsoever.

The connection of conspiracy theorists and occultists follows from their common, crooked premises. First, "any widely accepted belief must necessarily be false." Second, rejected knowledge – what the establishment spurns – must be true. The result is a large, self-referential network.

Flying saucer advocates promote anti-Jewish phobias. Anti-Semites channel in Peru. Some anti-Semites see extraterrestrials functioning as surrogate Jews; others believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are the joint product of "the Rothschilds and the reptile-Aryans."

By the late 1980s, Barkun finds, "virtually all of the radical Right's ideas about the New World Order had found their way into UFO literature."

Ufology's wide appeal transmits these political ideas to a large new audience of ideological omnivores, informing them that 9/11 was either an Illuminati operation or the Assassins (a medieval Muslim group) attacking Freemasons.

What does this craziness all amount to? Barkun, who reads widely in this backstairs literature, argues that in recent years "ideas once limited to fringe audiences became commonplace in mass media" and this has inaugurated a period of unrivaled millenarian activity in the US. He worries about the "devastating effects" this frenzy could wreak on American political life – and by extension, around the world.

I am more optimistic, trusting the stability of a mature democracy and noting that Americans have survived previous conspiracist bouts without much damage. But nonsensical, ugly, and pernicious ideas do not fail of their own accord; they need to be fought against and rendered marginal.

The task starts with recognizing that they exist, then arguing against them.

The writer, director of the Middle East Forum, is the author of two books on conspiracy theories, The Hidden Hand and Conspiracy.

No mention of Youtube

I had added some information about how youtube was driving these conspiracy theories. In fact it is the number one driving force on the internet for this stuff. But it was removed. Exactly how does that omission improve this article?

OK it's not my article but it is a wikipedia article and short changing critical information related to this whole phenomenon is frankly absurd. Unless the mention of youtube violates wikipedia standards due to commercial nature of the site? Then ok just add "internet video sites" have contributed.

Sadly I have found many very biased articles at wikipedia. Not saying this is but I'm starting to wonder after the deletion of very relevant information about this subject. Anything with any controversy at wikipedi is normally slanted in some way to support one side, view or opinion. Or worse the article is used to support a particular view and used exclusively to support such views. Really not sure how to cure that problem, it's just a weakness of having the public create an encyclopedia. --Mikearion (talk)

I was the one who removed your mention of Youtube videos about NWO conspiracy theories because, although it's true, it is original research until you provide reliable sources. --Loremaster (talk) 10:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Loremaster-I couldn't find his edit, if it was written as "original research" it's fair enough to delete it, but if he was writing this as an observation that's a fine line to walk- you could say every article at wiki is itself "original research" by the person writing it. The proliferation of conspiracy theories at youtube is incredibly widespread and feeds the theories themselves, I think rewriting it to meet your standards would be more appropriate than outright deletion, as it's notable toward the article's subject. Is it "original research" just to mention it in the article? I don't think so, it's introducing another aspect of the subject.Batvette (talk) 22:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Batvette, I've deleted your personal attacks. Please be mindful of talk page guidelines otherwise you will be reported and possibly banned. That being said, since you seem not to understand what Wikipedia considers to be original research, I suggest you read the Wikipedia:No original research page. FYI: I'm currently on vacation and I'm proud to say that editing Wikipedia is one of my hobbies. --Loremaster (talk) 23:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

The following text was Mikearion's deleted June 3rd contribution:

YouTube

In recent years the YouTube website has been used as a promotional tool by NWO conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theory films such as Alex Jones' “The Obama Deception" have had over two million views since being posted March 12, 2009. The Jones films have also inspired numerous derivative films at the website.

The video counter at youtube is actually a good source but it's a banned video link at wikipedia. There are plenty of news articles on conspricy theories at youtube but I haven't found an article on this one yet. Here is an example of a UFO conspiracy theory about youtube [1]

I'm sure if we dig enough there are plenty of good referances that will conform to wikipedia guidelines. I don't have a whole lot of passion about this subject. What got my attention was actually running into the Alex Jones video at youtube. I wanted to see what was here at wikipedia about this conspriacy theory and was stunned to notice no mention of the youtube effect on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.40.244.228 (talk) 21:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Loremaster-I, I'm just going to leave it alone. However, to improve this article the youtube factor really needs to be included. I did find articles on this subject (see UFO example above). It's not directly related to NWO conspiracy so it's a weak referance. I'll look again but I think you should be the one to include that information not me. Best, Mike