Talk:Gematria

Request for review

In May I added a link to a gematria toolbar that I wrote for IE. Recently the link was pulled under the context of link-spam. I recognize Wikipedia's External LInk policy sets forth that my own adding of this link crosses conflict of interest guidelines. I ask other editors to investigate the toolbar. If it matches the statements I made about it in my original link, please re-add the link. I've received many positive points of feedback regarding the toolbar, and I feel that it's reasonable to assume that it is a positive community resource. Shpoffo 07:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment 1

Quite off the point. The most common use of Gematria is hardly to do with the Sephiroth etc, let alone geometrical shapes. The Gematria of a word is, indeed, its numerical value as calculated by the common table Aleph = 1, Beth = 2 etc. Yod = 10, Kaf = 20 etc. Kuf = 100, Resh = 200. Its uses then lie in finding words and sentences with a similar value, if necessary employing the Kollel (+/- 1). Gematria is used by the Torah commentator Baal ha-Turim as well as many after him (the Keli Yakar, the Chassidic giants).

Mathematical value

Shouldn't there be a section regarding criticisms of this numerology? I've heard that mathematicians have pretty much entirely debunked the study. Not to mention that there is really no predicting power of the numbers. It seems people always find messages about events after they happen in contrived forms. I mean is this really any better that retooling the predictions of Nostradamus? jordan 02:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I would have to sort of agree with the above. What I would really like to see is a statistical distribution of the prevalence of meaningful Gemmatrial word tuples (a,b,c) where a,b have a gemmatrial/mathematical relation to c (addition, subtraction?) in several different languages (probably excluding vowels if the purpose is to contrast them to Hebrew). Then one could use statistical methods to determine if these tuples were more prevalent in Hebrew than other languages and whether this was statistically significant. Of course this might take several decades on a supercomputer, but it is probably the only form of proof that would convince me that Gemmatria is not just an example of the power of working backwards. (AH)

Removing Link asking for source cite

I am removing the link attached to the description, it links to a masonic website which does deal with gematria since it is placed at the end of a section I find controversial it gives the appearance of being a sited source. The statement attempts to state that other forms of gematria predate the hebrew version, I am not stating that this is true or false I AM stating that I don't beleive it is actually known and is therefore a personal opinion. The link at the end of the statement in any case does not appear to back up the statement. Can anyone verify these statements? --Chaoscrowley 03:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I have also removed the statement that the final forms are not used in "non-mystical numeration." This is simply false the final forms are used. In the next few days if no one is opposed I will be doing some major re-edits of this page. I feel it does not properly categorize the forms of Gematria and at times runs into long discussions that don't relate directly to the subject. --Chaoscrowley 04:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Table of final values

Based on a conversation with OwenX recorded on my talk page I've added a table to show the different values that are sometime assigned to the final forms of those Hebrew letters that have them. While I'm at I'm going to try and clean up the inconsistencies in the appearance of the word gematria. I'm changing all instances to italic, except the first, and changing all to lower case where they are not the initial word of a sentence. < Puck 03:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Sefirah

Seeing no link to that word, I discover that "the neutrality, etc." Can you help ?

Thank you. --DLL 23:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Why should there be a link? JFW | T@lk 23:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The article states : "Gematria is a system of recognizing a correspondence between the ten sefirot" - same word, different number.

The help I request is less for the link than for the related article, which seems to need correction. I won't create a link if the author here agrees to the needs there and declined to make the link himself. --DLL 00:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Link to Gematria site

I'm reposting this from the HelpDesk.

Jfdwolff - Moderator

Subject: Gematria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria

There are several "External Links" below that link to web pages that allow
the user to do "Gematria" which is the conversion of Hebrew or Greek letters
into numerals.

I put up a link because my site deals with this subject matter and has a far
better tool to do the calculations then the ones currently there or on the
internet for that matter. Those pages have Ads and Banners. Mine does not,
nor does it ask for donations. It's not selling Viagra or anything else,
just offering up a useful tool for people out there that do what I do. I
have thousands of words in my data base that I give for free when dealing in
this topic, yet the moderator "Jfdwolff" decided I'm some kind of self
spammer to promote a commerical site.

Commercial -Of, relating to, or being goods, often unrefined, produced and
distributed in large quantities for use by industry (none of which I do its
all FREE)

I'ts a real shame he would remove my link to a useful tool that people want
for free and keep these other links that are complete garbage.

Please take the time to examine my tool compared to the other sites you
allow External links to.

The current links:

http://www.c2kb.com/gematria/
http://www.baraksh.co.il/webgim/
http://hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Eight/Hebrew_Gematria/hebrew_gematria.html
http://www.shmulik.co.il/gmatrix/

My site and tool:

http://www.numberman.net/Greek_Gem_Calculator.html
http://www.numberman.net/Hebrew_Gem_Calculator.html

Greek Gematria & English Gematria Simplex

Gematria is also used with the Greek alphabet. The Greek form of Jesus (Iesous) adds up to 888 in classical Greek gematria, one greater than the mystical perfection of 777. In Simple₇₄ English₇₄ Gematria₇₄ (The Key₇₄: A=1...Z=26), Iesous=88 and provides a mystical connection with our past. Christ adds up to 77, mankind to 66 and Satan to 55. Mankind is positioned between Christ and Satan in Ouzo combinations (repetitions of the same digit). Additional information can be found in "The Ouzo Prophecy".

Robert Merlin Evenson/Church of Ouzo

bobevenson@yahoo.com

If Wikipedia is here to help expand knowledge then this paticular subject of
Gematria suffers from allowing the moderator to remove useful links for
people to reference. I can't upload the tool nor can I possibly upload
several thousand Greek and Hebrew words with their numeric values for people
to study.

I would like the moderator to reconsider what he has done as I see it highly
unfair and unprofessional. Kindly restore my links or remove these others as
they then would qualify as garbage links. I would fix it, but the moderator
would then restore it to his liking again.

Thanks for your time

Could someone please take a look at the site and investigate his claims? --HelpRing 02:14, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

A website posted by a username with the same name (NumberMan (talk · contribs)). It relies on Flash rather than the much more straightforward Javascript. But NumberMan does not know that I never removed the links. Other users did. All I did was leave {{spam}} on his talkpage, which I felt was justified given that the URL was posted on 10 pages. Instead of leaving a message on my talkpage he sends me an email and runs to the helpdesk. Please WP:COOL. JFW | T@lk 01:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Biblical Language Gematria Tables

Are there any objections to including Gematria Tables for the Biblical Languages here?

Reference needed

I object to using Abarim Publications' Bible Commentary: What If The Best Isn't Good Enough? as a reference. It's an online (=unedited, unscrutinized) commentary by someone promoting mystical, transcendental Biblical theories, and the "fact" assertion is made in a totally offhand manner, without any citation. This is not the sort of reference we use in Wikipedia. I don't know if it is true that the Hebrews had NO means at all of expressing fractions (= quantities less than 1). Both the ancient Egyptians and the Romans did. I'm going to zap the weak "reference" and flag the assertion with {{fact}} so that it attracts editorial attention. In the meantime, I will look through my own library to see if I can find any support for the assertion. --Cbdorsett 05:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

"Greek Gematria predates it"

Hello, the statement: "Greek Gematria predates it" where it refers to Hebrew seems to lack sense of chronology. I believe its a well known fact that Semitic languages and Hebrew, including its earlier versions like Arameic, are as old as Greek since its origins belong to the 2nd millennium BC. (please refer to the corresponding sites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/hebrew). Since gematria mostly concerns Judeo-Christian monotheistic themes and Semitic languages where spoken by these people as opposed to Greek who was spoken by people who believed in Mythology and polytheism, Greek gematria cant precede due to the cultural differences and trends that happened in each at the same time. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.80.52.219 (talk) 11:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

shalom.

the language of the torah is even older than the koine greek or julian latin which the scriptures were translated into. the tanakh was translated by egyptian jewish leaders into greek, and subsequently translated into latin by jerome. 216.171.96.18 (talk) 18:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC) the language of the torah and jewish commentaries, known as Hebrew Language, has words in common with other languages such as Korean, Russian, and English. The pictographic system of Chinese writing has ideographic idioms which relate to the Hebrew narrative of History. The Jews of Kaifeng could have brought this culture with them, but the idiomatic chinese dates to a much earlier time. In Chinese History, the nomadic peoples which settled the area known as Han China used fire and tools. By the Han Dynasty, the writing system used today in Taiwan Island was well-established.

Shalom Eleichem, with love of Israel, 216.171.96.18 (talk) 18:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Broken External Links

• Gematria according to Sefer Raziel HaMalach explaining birth and name numerology and
• WebGim - An interactive gematria calculator, which includes results from Torah verses. (Hebrew) (same site)

seem to require a login. Could someone verify and remove the link? --Aleph1 00:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I checked it out and "WebGim" is working. The other one still requires login. 85.250.191.138 16:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleted External Link

jfdwolff deleted this external link:

• The Gematria of Gematria for being "random." The brief article gives the gematria of the Hebrew word "gematria" in two common spellings and a short semantic analysis according to the interpretation of the Qabalist *Carlo Suares as well as sublinks to three articles --

• Gematria of the Autiot, *Types of Gematria and* Gematria Links, the largest collection of Gematria links on the web, ranked (as of today) 3rd on a Google search for "gematria links" and in the top 20 for "gematria." Knowing that WP/jfdwolff disapproves of link pages, no matter how unique or useful to researchers in these relatively esoteric areas, I external-linked to a more general subject-specific page with multiple relevant gematria resources. Perhaps jfdwolff meant something else when he used the word "random" as the reason for deletion. It does help to have some familiarity with the subject.

One problem with this article is that gematria as a term is really never defined. For instance, the first definition under *Mystical gematria (poorly) defines the whole by a part, as do most of the other explicit "examples" (used four times in an eight paragraph article}. The article remains unaware of the semantic side of the alpha-numeric qualities underlying the "system" of gematria, which has its roots and parallels in pre-medieval Jewish mystical thought, Egyptian numerology and Pythagorean and Neo-Platonic philosophy such as *Iamblicus, and which are characterized by Gershom Scholem as the "fundamental powers of being" embodied in the letter-numbers of the Hebrew alphabet (On the Kabbalah and Its Symbolism 1965). The *Sepher Yetzirah is the prime example of this style of thought in Jewish mysticism or pre-Kabbalah.

The link defines Gematria as "the numerical essence of a letter, word or phrase," which seems more to the point to me.

The article in its present state is a short and disorganized collection of usages and a bunch of online calculators. The external link was intended to broaden the perspective on the "meaning" of gematria. I wonder if *Gematria of the Autiot would have fared any better? I apologize in advance for any randomness and look for guidance on what makes an appropriate external link.

--Aleph1 02:05, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The Tanach/Gematria Search Link

I added the link for a program I wrote- http://www.thetrugmans.com/trugman_gematria.shtml. While I wrote the program, it should be noted that my Rabbi, Rabbi Trugman, is himself a scholar on the subject, and wrote the explanation on that page (aside from program usage). Furthermore, he has been a student of Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh (most likely the world's expert on Gematria) for over 30 years. While they have not checked to make sure that the program works perfectly, they are both very interested in it, and Rabbi Trugman has hands-on control over the content of that website. While it might not be the most comprehensive, it is among the most accurate, so someone who has a better grasp of wikitext might want to use it as a reference. Also, I admit- the tool is the clearest and most advanced gematria Tanach searcher I've seen. Please keep it under the external links.

Omnivibe 17:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you please explain in what way the program is better than the numerous other gematria calculators available? JFW | T@lk 18:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes- 1) The interface is in English, with a graphical input pad for putting in Hebrew 2) It allows for different substitution (i.e. atbash) and authoritative Gematria systems (i.e. ordinal), 3) It has an in-depth explanation by an authority on the subject, 4) It searches from within Tanach, which, for Gematria, has more significance than any other body of text. Gematria is a way of showing the relationship between Hebrew letters in the Tanach. This tool demonstrates some of these relationships. Omnivibe 08:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's see if other contributors agree too. The tool looks nice, but we've had so many different once added to this page in the past that I want everyone to agree. JFW | T@lk 23:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. How do we see if other contributors agree? Hey people- can you please check out http://www.thetrugmans.com/trugman_gematria.shtml and write here what you think about the uniqueness and relevance of this tool to the Gematria page? Also, JFW, I'm very new to editing wikipedia, but you might want to take a look at that page as a reference for more information on Gematria from a reliable source (he was an editor for the book "The Hebrew Letters: Channels of Creative Consciousness"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omnivibe (talk • contribs) 08:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It has now been about a year and nobody has objected. Can we please add it now? :) In an interesting connection, I used the utility to search for גפו which is my approximation of the English "JFW"- and guess what? The second match using regular gematria, where it equals 89, is in Genesis chapter 2 verse 24- the word יעזב which means to "leave, forget, or abandon." So now that we've, um, forgotten to follow up on this for a year... maybe it's time to add it.גפו = הזה כי גדלה too ;)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Omnivibe

You are talking about adding an external link? Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omnivibe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.124.125 (talk) 09:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Greek Gematria

This article definitely needs to mention Greek Gematria too. In its current state it almost completely overlooks them. A table showing letters and corresponding numbers is needed, as is already present for Hebrew. Markdarb 06:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Strange template

I really cannot see what the point in {{find}} is. This should either be on every single Wikipedia page (i.e. ask Bugzilla) or not at all. I removed it for this reason. Could whoever wants it here please clarify. JFW | T@lk 09:56, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Could I point out that it belongs on AFD pages and on stubs (see Template:Findsources/doc). Please provide an argument why we should deviate from these usage notes. JFW | T@lk 09:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia suffers from the lack of cited sources in the articles. I tend to think its because people are just lazy to even look online, hence the find template. It should be on every article where there are either a stub or unref templates so people will use the special relationship Wikipedia has with Google and look for supporting material.--Meieimatai 12:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meieimatai (talk • contribs)

This article is not a stub and the usage note says nothing about unreferenced articles. The sources you are looking for is not to be found on Google but rather in books. I will remove the template, because it is being used well outside its intended usage. You are free to use it on the talkpage. JFW | T@lk 14:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You can see somewhere where it says the use of template is forbidden for any other purpose? Please provide a link to this as I was unaware of this condition of use--Meieimatai 15:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meieimatai (talk • contribs)

Original research/NPOV

The "Use in Judaism" section seems to be written from a religious Jewish point of view, clearly invested in perpetuating the notion that the Torah was written using Aramaic script despite the general scholarly consensus - and Jewish tradition (cf. Talmud tractate Sanhedrin 21b) - which asserts that Aramaic script in the Hebrew language was adopted after the Babylonian Exile. The section is rife with original research; not a single external source is quoted save for a specific translation of the Bible (not necessarily a scholarly source). Furthermore, despite its name, the section does not delve into the use of gematria in Judaism save for the very first sentence - it is almost entirely a poorly reasoned and sourced polemic ("...Interestingly modern scholars ignore the very fact that the K'tav Ivri is named after Abraham who was known as the Ivri...") against the dominant scholarly view concerning the evolution of Hebrew script. Inaccuracy aside, how is it even relevant?

So given the original research, factual inaccuracy and irrelevance to the topic, it is my feeling the section should either be deleted or rewritten to reflect gematria's place in Jewish religious thought.

I do not understand the point you are making. But it is hard to see how deleting the section will improve the article, particularly since removing "Use in Judaism" would remove what should be the core of the article. If you can improve the article, please do. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

At second look, it seem that you are right and there is virtually nothing in the section worth saving. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:30, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Discuss section

I have moved this section to the talk page for discussion:

==Gematria and discovery of Pi==

Gematria has been employed to contend that the author of Kings, who according to traditionalists is Jeremiah, was aware of the approximate value of Pi. A plain reading of 1 Kings 7:23 suggests that its author believed that 3, rather than 3.14159..., is the value of Pi. The verse describes the molten sea that was made in the Temple as being 10 cubits from brim to brim (diameter) and as being encircled completely by a line of 30 cubits (circumference).

In Jewish tradition, words appearing in portions of the Books of the Prophets are occasionally read (Kri) differently than they are written (Ktiv), although this phenomenon is not particularly common. Some traditional biblical scholars, such as Rabbi Judah Loew, the 16th century Maharal of Prague, attribute the Kri/Ktiv dichotomy to the original authors of the Books of the Prophets. In this instance, the written form of the word meaning "circumference" is spelled קוה (Kuf, Vav, Hey) for the molten sea's circumference. Yet, the read form is spelled קָו (Kuf, Vav). The numerical value of קוה is 111 (Kuf = 100, Vav = 6, Hey = 5), while that of קָו is 106 (Kuf = 100, Vav = 6). The ratio of these two numbers (111/106 = 1.047169) closely approximates the ratio between Pi and 3 (1.047197). If used to calculate Pi, a value of 3.141509 is obtained, which is approximately 99.997% of the known value. The Vilna Gaon, a Rabbinic luminary of the 18th Century known for a remarkable mathematical prowess, is often credited with this discovery.

This can be compared with a phenomenon found in the Pythagorean motto "God is ever a geometer" (ἀεὶ ὁ Θεὸς ὁ μέγας γεωμετρεῖ)—counting the letters of the words reveals the first six digits of pi.

This entire section seems to rely on primary sources which is not allowed in Wikipedia articles under WP:NOR [1] As it says: Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 11:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It is attributed, just not sourced properly. To my knowledge there is no commentary by the Vilna Gaon on the book of Kings, so it must be from somewhere else. JFW | T@lk 12:05, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Without sourcing it appears to be original research. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

culture reference

Might be useful to include this in the article, as there is a song on the recent Slipknot album, All Hope Is Gone, titled Gematria (The Killing Name).

--Divya da animal lvr (talk) 22:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Plato's Cratylus

There is a link her that references Plato's Cratylus dialog – suggesting that Plato discusses the "essential force" of a thing in relation to its numerical value. Yet there is no other reference given other than the Cratylus dialog. I have not been able to find any discussion of the numerical value of names in the Cratylus dialog. Could someone please point to the relevant passage and in which English translation this can be found. I searched the Benjamin Jowett translation and found no mention of it.

Mbase1235 (talk) 21:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC)