Talk:Ouroboros

Merge

Ijust wanted to point out that there is a different page for the spelling "Ourobouros".

Thanks --- that text is now merged here with minor changes, and redirects. I'm a bit dubious about the Christian interpretation of the symbol. And I suspect the business about autofellatio can be dropped --- never knew of anyone who attached a great deal of cultural weight to the practice, although now I know the true payoffs for gymnastics and yoga. -- IHCOYC 01:19, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

---

Ourobouros had a talk page, I've moved the info here:

COPYVIO: http://www.ldolphin.org/ouro.html

Does anybody has better (or more clear) explaination for Ourobouros?

- Pradyot Rai

Autofellatio

Removed absurd notion of self---------, just an old man's fantasy which has nothing to do with this ancient symbol.Norwikian 15:01, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• Note for posterity, it was a reference to autofellatio. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:57, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

And you are so sure that autofellatio is NOT an ancient idea? LOL you do not read much mysticism do you? Well the burden of proof is on those who want to add that. Come on Tantric Yoga buffs weigh in on the Chakra symbolism of the act <wink>.

Realistically until modern pop culture picked it up, this was a rather obscure ancient symbol pre-dating much of written history. All the modern citations prove is modern popularity and modern scholarly bias and censorship. If modern experts without access to ancient written records is your standard then you probably ought to stop censoring modern autoerotic references as well -- since they are in fact experts in their field.

However, as a practical matter I suggest Wikipedia adopt PROVISIONAL acceptance on certain topics with thin academic coverage until proper academic citations pro or con are found. I think this case qualifies given that this is a specialize area of mysticism with few REAL (nonliterary) practitioners and next to no academic coverage outside popular culture.

69.23.124.142 (talk) 19:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Program link

Hmmmm, is it cool that someone did the linakge to that program and put their email address in the article and such? Just asking if that is in general permissible activity.

--Ouroboros 08:08, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The link to the program is fine, it's a legitimate external link. That mail link needs to go, which I'm doing right now. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:57, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Another reference to Ouroboros

In the Silent Hill game, there is yet another reference to mysticism and the occult and demonology. In order to open the final door before confronting the demon Samael, you have to place the Disk of Ouroboros in the door, along with the Crest of Mercury, Dagger of Melchior, Ankh, and the Amulet of Solomon. I just thought it was funny how many religious and occult references there were in this game. By the way, it was quite a good game.

Additionally, in City of Heroes/City of Villians, the new update (issue 11) features the ability to travel back in time to take on old missions, and the company that allows this is called Ouroboros.

71.67.254.249 (talk) 06:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It is also mentioned in one of the Xanth series of books by Piers Anthony. It is described as a snake which bites its own tail and continually circles a castle moat. In order to cross the moat which the creature inhabits the main character of the book must trust his knowledge and walk along the snake (it submerges periodically but through a spiral you can ride to the middle). Unfortunately I cant remember which book it is, too many years ago ClamsonJ (talk) 22:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a reference to it in the Charlie Kaufman movie also, when Charlie's brother Donald tries to describe it to Charlie, but doesn't agree that it is called Ouroboros. "The snake, it’s called ouroboros." "I don’t think so. But anyway,..." —Donald and Charlie phocks (talk) 05:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Milky way

Interesting thought inspired by the reference to the Oroborus being inspired by the Milky Way. Has anyone noticed how ancient symbols often have counterparts in science? The carbon atom is a round circle like the Oroborus and the Double Helix of DNA corresponds to the double snake on the staff of Hermes.

Well I thought it was interesting.

Seems like coincidence to me. And it's a bit of nonsense to describe carbon atoms in terms of shapes, given current theories of quantum mechanics. Citizen Premier 06:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

"...believed to have been inspired by the Milky Way, as some ancient texts refer to a serpent of light residing in the heavens." Sounds like northern lights to me. Jakob —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.224.151 (talk) 12:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

http://www.crystalinks.com/ouroboros.html

The overview if a Ouroboros on Wiki and the link I posted have extremely similar statements.

Infringement?

Not unless there are direct sentences copied out of it--although it is also possible that they copied us. I'm a bit too lazy to look see if there are any sentences repeated, but at the front it doesn't look like it. Citizen Premier 20:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

A lot of the information given is really general and could have come from anywhere. The article just needs a lot of work to give it an identity of its own. --DanielCD 21:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Listing

Much of the listing here needs to be rethought. It might even be better to make an article specifically got that, as it really take over the article. It's just messy and makes the subject confusing. Not sure at this point what needs to be done though. --DanielCD 21:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Q. Are we trying to make a complete list of every time it is used? A. I don't think so!

Can this be changed to give a sample of uses? Are there any academic references to way the symbol is used in modern culture and why? --FloNight ^talk 03:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to remove examples that just involve the word and no further significance that helps in understanding the concept. This won't stop the additions that continually trickle in, but then nothin will do that. --DanielCD 12:14, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Caduceus

Is it worth mentioning that symbolicaly ouroboros is the exact oposite of the Caduceus which stands for fixed points, beginging and end --82.45.120.125 02:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if that's so. I'll try to find it. Have a reference? --DanielCD 14:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Its mentioned in the anime Full Metal Alchemist, i will search for something more solid. --82.42.191.189 18:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Mentioned in passing as linked symbols The two symbols used together in meditation This one seems a bit more solid mentioing their duel uses in Alchemy None of these links (Grabbed from a quick google search) Back up the two symbols being polar oposites however there were numerous mentions of being used in alchemy together. The only direct link that supports anon ips question is this wikipedia entry on a full metal alchemist charecter so im gonna say dont put it in, the polar oposites thing looks like two symbols that look similar and are both used in alchemy were grabbed in this anime by the makers just for a plot point and there is no genuine real world link.--Seth Turner 18:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Psych(e)

Added the "e" to "psych"...I'm pretty sure "psyche" was the intended word. --Stationwagontodd 18:52, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

yes, it was. --DanielCD 19:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Examples

I will continue to prune the less-relevant examples from the article as they trickle in, as this is not meant to be a collection of every mention of the term or concept. It should be mentioned if it gives some light on the definition of what the Ouroboros is, not just because it uses the name or symbol. --DanielCD 02:00, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Not vitally important, but the Red Dwarf reference needs fixing. It states (at the moment) that "he was found in a box under a pool table with "O rob or us" (phonetically) written on the side." What was believed to be on the box was actually (phonetically) "Our Rob or Ross", as in, the people who left it there couldn't work out the name of the baby...or spell. 203.33.166.37 06:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)hvg3, 6:00, 17 feb 2007 (SYD)

Christian thing

Can we be 100% sure on the Christian thing, cause I can't find any other sites that say that this is a Christian symbol. --Slash's snakepit 03:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know of it being a Christian symbol. If the article says it is, and doesn't provide a reference, I'd take it out. --DanielCD 05:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

A Christian here, and I have never seen it being anythign symbolic for us. So I would suggest removing it :) --hvg3 203.33.166.37 07:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Missing in literature reference.`

There is an interesting dialog about the origin or rebirth of the universe and mention of a snake eating it's tail(as well as an illustration of it) in Kurt Vonnegut's novel "Breakfast of Champions".

Also there are American folk stories of hoop snakes that are not mentioned in this article, although not necessarily related symbolically may be worth a side note or at least a link to the wiki article on hoop snake.

Hope this helps, Norman Andersen

Please limit the examples to relevant material

I will continue to prune the less-relevant examples from the article as they trickle in, as this is not meant to be a collection of every mention of the term or concept. It should be mentioned if it gives some light on the definition of what the Ouroboros is, not just because it uses the name or symbol.

We need a separate article for the examples as they have taken the article over and make it really confusing. --DanielCD 19:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Serpent Cult in Conan the Barbarian movie

The Ouroboros is one of the symbols used by Thulsa Doom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.210.96 (talk • contribs)

I don't think that's related enough. Similar maybe, but not the same. --DanielCD 15:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Oroboro

Google shows this to be another spelling variant! Ludvikus 00:27, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Which way?

On the page snake at the bottom it says that the ouroboros symbol is clockwise from the head to the tail. What does this mean? And there are various pictures on the ouroboros article of snakes, and there is an equal number of snakes facing one way as there is facing the other. Which is it? Mooski Magnus 01:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture?

Just thought it might be useful for a section on the uses of the Ouroboros in popular culture - there are a few mentioned but I think they deserve their own section. And the Homunculi's Ouroboros tatoos in Fullmetal Alchemist need to be added to that ;) Renkinjutsu1921 16:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken there was originally an entire article for the FMA Ouroboros, but it seems to have been removed some time ago. Shame, it was a good article..:Stirb Nicht Vor Mir:. 02:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortulately it seems to serve as a magnet for every mention of the concept known to man. Many articles are having to delete the pop culture sections, and we may just have to do away with it here as well. I think some is ok, but it gets abused and stuffed with garbage. --DanielCD 21:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Opinion varies. Deleting sections needs consensus on the talk page first. yes, one can be bold and go ahead, but it will be reverted. DGG (talk) 22:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it's policy that Wikipedia is not a link farm or a trivia list. See Wikipedia:Trivia sections. Just because it's called "popular culture" doesn't make it non-trivia. Also: being bold can go so far; if you violate the 3rr you can be blocked. You can't just revert forever and you have reverted me several times already. There are reasons articles link to each other; if we had a list of every mention of everything that mentions every concept in every article... that's just nonsensical. The "What links here" key will get you all that. No need to list it all in the article.

If you are going to add stuff at least make it somewhat notable. I agree that some things can add to the article and may be important, but obviously non-notable trivia is subject to removal. See Wikipedia:Relevance of content. --DanielCD 13:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• A fact that connects two subjects may be appropriate for mention in the article of one, but not the other. This is often the case with creative works: what is important within the creative work may not exert a measurable influence on the other subject. --DanielCD 15:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removed a lot of chaff from those lists. The literature list now has a focus on actual literature. Likewise, i've removed a lot of trivial and obscure metal bands from the music list. Seriously, it seemed like every band with an ouroboros on their album art was mentioned in that list. I've removed the games section entirely because it was just dumb, and longer than the actual article content. --90.206.122.26 (talk) 11:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Right, I have just pruned every reference which simply states that such-and-such used the symbol. Unless the reference illustrates (or relates to) WHAT ouroboros IS, there's really no point in listing it. This is not the place to flaunt your edgy tastes in anime or doom metal!

Four elephants on the back of a turtle

The article says that "in some Hindu folk-myths, [the ouroboros is present] as the dragon circling the tortoise that supports the four elephants which support the world on their backs". Is that really Hindu myth? Not many pages on the internet supporting this are of much credit. It seems to be in fact a reference to a joke by Stephen Hawking in his book A Brief History of Time, or Terry Pratchett's Discworld series which contains itself lots of jokes on Stephen Hawking's books (See Turtles all the way down).—Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.19.78.161 (talk • contribs)

That same article cites a mention of this as a Hindu myth from a lecture by Bertrand Russell, directly below the Hawking quote. This myth is also mentioned on this page, giving "Cobb, Kelton, 2005, The Blackwell Guide to Theology and Popular Culture, Blackwell Publishing, ISBN 1-405-10698-0" as a citation. I also found the statement dubious, but I am convinced now. Any objections to removing the tag? -Elmer Clark 20:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Why not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcaudilllg (talk • contribs) 03:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Order of "Popular Culture" listings?

Isn't there any order to how items are listed in the trivia section? Why would the "Worm Ourobouros" be placed underneath "Legend of Dragoon"--The "Worm" is far more focused on the Ouroborous as a symbol that drives the events of the book; the book shouldn't just be a small footnote eclipsed by these consistent mentions of cameos in video games! The media which directly address the symbol should go the top, while the video game cameos and such go to the bottom.

PHP ouroboros

file: "ouroboros.php"

<html> <head> <style type="text/css"> <!-- div.container { width:250; height:250; } --> </style> <title>infinite divs</title> </head> <body> <div class="container"> <?php include ("ouroboros.php") ?> </div> </body> </html>

Get it? :]

This is a place for discussing improvements for the given article, not for posting "clever" code tricks. Besides, this is just a basic example of infinite recursion as opposed to something truly infinite. This code has a definite start but no end (although technically the interpreter should stop after a certain depth of including the same file, otherwise it will never complete processing and never render). The symbol has neither a true start or end as the end is going into (or coming out of, depending how you look at it) the head. MerlinYoda (talk) 16:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Chrysopoeia of Cleopatra

The famous ouroboros drawing from the early alchemical text The Chrysopoeia of Cleopatra dating to 2nd century Alexandria encloses the words hen to pan, "one, the all", i.e. "All is One". Its black and white halves represent the Gnostic duality of existence.

This sounds interesting. Can we get an image of this, if it's so 'famous'? Failing that, does anyone have a link to an image on the web?Avnas Ishtaroth (talk) 04:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Plural

What's the plural of ouroboros?Avnas Ishtaroth (talk) 11:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

"Ouroboroses"? Although, I don't think there's much call for a plural as it isn't technically associated with an actual physical thing. It's more a symbol associated with an idea. It's kinda like having a plural for "Love" or "Time". —Preceding unsigned comment added by MerlinYoda (talk • contribs) 16:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there was a concept of anything other than One ouroboros. As I understand ancient Greek, if the singular ends with -os, than the plural would be -oi, ie Ouroboroi. MegX (talk) 03:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Jung

Was Jung a psychoanalyst? Carl Jung says he was a psychiatrist. Hyacinth (talk) 20:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Examples/Pictures

I think the page needs a more contemporary picture (of the symbol) to accompany the older art one present.

Kirthimukha

The origin story of this temple decoration is very similar to ouroboros: a demon which consumes itself, ending up as a symbol adorning temple gates to represent the basic nature of existence and upon which spiritual development also ultimately rests (in its traditional sense). I suggest a link to the article on Kirthimukha, if its origin story is ever referenced there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.150.54 (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

It's a kundalini thing

I know that the ouroboros is incredibly tightly tied to Kundalini, a spiritual energy that rests at *the tailbone* and *snakes* *up the spine* (releasing at *the head* or *cycling back* down the front of the body), but I don't have especially direct references to hand, does anyone else? With that relationship in place, the link to the caduceus is far less wobbly (the caduceus is a map of the energy channels involved during the kundalini ascension - the two spiralling snakes are the ida and pingala channels, the central rod is the spinal susumna, and the resulting fusion takes place in the region of the winged third eye / ajna chakra). K2709 (talk) 09:31, 18 April 2009 (UTC)