Talk:Hinduism and Sikhism

Highly flawed content

The content of this page is very misleading and the author's of the page has selectively used flawed and highly refuted work of some people like Khuswant Singh, Harjot Oberoi and W. H. Mcleod. I have objection to the content and intent of this article. I'll wait for some time for the original creator of this page to come and talk for their choice of words and citations on this article, after which this article will be edited.

• Khuswant Singh is not an authority on Sikhism, his work is flawed and many genuine Sikh scholars have academically exposed his work.
• Harjot Oberoi was removed from the his position of Sikh chair for his highly erronous work, he continues from behind the scene to spread misinformation.
• W. H. Mcleod is more of a missionary than a historian. His thesis, which was later published in the form of book had thesis committee members who had no knowlegde about Sikhism. Its like one presenting and passing a thesis presetation on Quantum Physics in front of thesis committee which does not even know anything about conventional physics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A. S. Aulakh (talk • contribs) 22:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There is rarely one main author of any article on Wikipedia, every article is edited by many different authors, sometimes thousands. You can find who made certain edits by browsing the article's History. As for your objections, they may be valid. If you believe those sources are unreliable, feel free to be bold and remove them and any disputed statements that are supported solely by them. I don't know anything about these sources myself, but if someone happens to think they are important and reliable, they can bring it up again here. Thanks for sharing your concerns. -kotra (talk) 02:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, will do as time permits. Currently, removed the following unreferenced propaganda "However, Sikhism, like Hinduism is a religion which can be practiced regardless of language or culture and turbans are also worn by Hindus (and Muslims) in many parts of India. Nevertheless, this propagation furher fueled the need of the Sikhs to form a separate identity.". —Preceding unsigned comment added by A. S. Aulakh (talk • contribs) 07:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Khushwant Singh secularist?

The line in the article reads, "Secularist Sikh writers like Khushwant Singh have written that despite innovations ...". Please provide information how it was decided that Khushwant Singh is a secularist. Who did this research and what are the references? At what platform was this research (KS being secularist) published? If he himself claimed that, please provide his claim in quotes and also give references. Thanks, ---- A. S. Aulakh^Talk 19:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Table confusing and possibly incorrect

Some of the entries in the table are confusing. Particularly the line

12. Use of force accepted if other means fail

This has "Sex-methodology accepted. Ahimsa." next to it for Vishnavism. What does this mean? Vishnava are not total pacifists, as the Gita says, when it is correct to fight then fight. And what does sex methodology have to do with it. This is not the only line I don't understand, but certainly the strangest -- Q Chris (talk) 13:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hinduism and Sikhism

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Sham

Either you are a Hindu or a Sikh. One can't be both. At the most a person can be liberal minded. But that sort of a person would be regarded as a spiritual person and not a religious person. There is considerable difference between the two.

There are no similarities between the two religions. Eventhough a lot of persons who were born Hindus converted to Sikhism, it does not bring the two together. If any similarity exists, it is between the thought and beliefs of two individuals or a group of persons, but not between these two religions. Ajjay (talk) 16:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You cant be Hindu and Sikh? Wow thats amazing. There have been plenty of people who go to both a Mandir & Gurudwara. And there was a time in India when people were Hindu and the oldest mail was a Sikh....So you cant be both? I consider myself both. 71.105.82.152 (talk) 22:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I was raised in a very religious and large Sikh family, and we have attended Mandir quite a few times, made donations, and prayed to hindu Gods, even though we are not actually Hindu. Some of my aunts and uncles have married into Hindu families. My cousins who were born of the hindu/sikh parents worship both religions as that was how they were raised. So they are proof, you can indeed be both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuroame (talk • contribs) 02:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Ajay, who are you to dictate who can be what? The very statment: "There are no similarities between the two religions" Is utter rubbish. There blatently are similarities between the two religions particualrly in the context of Hindu bhakti and Sikhi. Why else would the teachings of Hindu bhagats and even sufi be incorporated into Sikhi? It does not make them the same religion. If people could not follow both traditions then do explain why Hindu-Sikh marriage is fairly common place despite the attempts of puritanical politics that have sought to drive a wedge between the communites. It is a fact that that many Panjabi and Sindhi Hindus and Panjabi sikhs follow elements of both traditions, it is called religious syncretism and it happens in many parts of the world.--86.20.74.243 (talk) 21:47, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Very Misleading article

This article is alarmingly misleading. The last two lines of the introduction manipulate information to convey what is incorrect. For example, the footnote for "intermarriage between Hindus and Sikhs has been considered acceptable" cites the quote "A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh." Also, the last line's reference sources are not valid! The 2nd source for it, a page about a Hindu shrine, mentions one important Sikh visitor. Nothing on the sources even imply that Hindus and Sikhs both visit each site proportionally. I will clarify the inaccuracies here; if you have a reason to change then respond first please. Mar de Sin ^{Speak up!} 01:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes very misleading

Present Day Scenario, The Truth Hindus in all(in particularly Hindu punjabis) lose no chance in humilating and cracking jokes on Sikhism & Sikh community in any gatthering or function....They have have taken over from were what Mulims used to do befor Indias Partition —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.181.121.67 (talk) 06:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok first of all Sikhs crack jokes on Hindus to. Lets not get all innocent. Secondly most Hindu Punjabis go to a Gurudwara or believe in some form of Sikhism so dont act like they hate on Sikhs cus they dont like them. And third, this article is not mis leading, its building a case for people who believe in both Hinduism and Sikhism. If you dont believe in the unity of these two religions, then thats your opinion. But there are many people who believe that Hindus and Sikhs are pretty much the same (with some differences). After all the Gurus did teach us to unite. 71.105.82.152 (talk) 22:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I am a Punjabi Hindu and i in no form believe in any Sikh concept at all and i never visit a Gurudwara and i know not even a single Punjabi Hindu who believes in any sikh ideas. 122.161.152.30 (talk) 22:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well you must live in a little hole, because when i was last in Panjab in 2004 and before that in 2001 Once in during Janmashtami, many sikhs were lining up in Ludhiana to visit the Hindu Mandir in Model Town, on Diwali there were hindus going to both places of worship not least my own relatives and have you ever been to vaishno devi shrine in Jammu? Sikhs a plenty! It does not been all Hindus and Sikhs do this in the Panjab, but many do. --86.20.74.243 (talk) 21:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Sikhs do not go to Hindu temples or pilgrimages?

Many modern day Sikhs take a pilgrimage to the Golden Temple don't they. From that article:

...Similarly Diwali is one of the festivals which sees the Harmandir Sahib beautifully illuminated with Divas/Diyas (lamps),lights and fireworks are discharged. During these special occasions 1-2 million pilgrims visit the Holy shrine named Harmandir Sahib.

That sounds like there is pilgrimage to me. -- Q Chris (talk) 15:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

An annual event is not a pilgrimage, genius. Many gurdwaras are lit up during the New Year and an abnormally large crowd shows up on those days. Are you saying that New Year's visits are pilgrimages? "Pilgrims" and "pilgrimage" are simply poor choices of words. Don't be inane.3swordz (talk) 09:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

---

False claims

Quote-

"Sikhs can often be told apart by physical appearance. Hindus refer to God by many names such as "Rama,", "Krishna" or "Durga", however they view these human forms of God as a symbolic represenation of One universal ultimate Truth and reality called "Aum" or "Brahman" that is omnipresent and eternal and resides in all living entities as professed by every Hindu scripture. Sikhs refer God as "Waheguru" or "Raab," and the Sikh God is omnipotent, omnipresent, formless, genderless. This God is referred to in both male and female tenses throughout the Guru Granth, showing the nature of a single creator. Rama, Krishna etc. are considered mere creations of God and are nowhere near God's greatness, in Guru Granth Sahib Ji they are also crticised as being filled with ego. Therefore, Sikhs are strictly forbade from worshipping them, but must worship the One alone as described in the Mool Mantar and praised throughout Guru Granth Sahib Ji."

"Rama, Krishna etc. are considered mere creations of God and are nowhere near God's greatness, in Guru Granth Sahib Ji they are also crticised as being filled with ego. Therefore, Sikhs are strictly forbade from worshipping them, but must worship the One alone as described in the Mool Mantar and praised throughout Guru Granth Sahib Ji"

Now i shall quote from the Guru Granth Sahib to proove that these lines are 100% false.

Sloka Sahaskritee M: 1Guru Nanak Dev says-

Ek Krishna sarab devaa dev devtaa-t atmah aatma-m Sri vaasa-v devasya koi janas bhev Nanak taako daas hai so-ee Niranjan dev

Translation

There is only one Krishna, rest are all demigods(devtaa-s). He is the master of all demigods. He is the Supreme soul (Param-atma) Nanak is the servant to that controller.

Asaa M:5 Sloka

Hari Hari Naam japanti-aa kach kahe na Yamkaal Nanak man tan sukhi hoi anteh milay Gopal

Translation

By chanting the name of Hari ( Krishna ) Yamraj ( incharge of death ) doesnot say anything. Nanak says, " the mind as well as the body gets happiness and in the end one meets Gopal ( Krishna's childhood name ).

also refer to - Gujri Sri Trilochan jiu ke Padey Ghar 1, Asa di Vaar, Maroo M5, Raag Goand Baani Naamdev jiu ki Ghar 2, Soret M5, Guru Gobind Singh's book- Chaubees Avtara. I can quote 100 more references from the Guru Granth Sahib where endless Glories of Lord Krishna and Lord Ram are sung and they are declared to be the Supreme Lord.

Now to the 2nd point -

indus refer to God by many names such as "Rama,", "Krishna" or "Durga", however they view these human forms of God as a symbolic represenation of One universal ultimate Truth and reality called "Aum" or "Brahman" that is omnipresent and eternal and resides in all living entities as professed by every Hindu scripture.

i can quote a lot here but i shall quote only 1 verse

Sri Bramha Samhita, text 1

Isvara Parama Krishna Sat Cit Ananda Vigraha Anadir adit Govinda Sarve Karan Karanam

Translation

Krishna is the Supreme controller He is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. He is origin of all and has no origin himself. He is the Prime cause of all causes.

So this makes it clears that the Hindus hold Sri Krishna as just not a symbolic representation but as God himself. Nowhere in the Sikh holy book or any Hindu sacred text has this been said, if there is then please quote, till then i shall delete this part.

As such the whole article seems to been have written by some sikh gentleman who wishes to declare his own views as universal and the article must be considered for deletion. 122.161.152.30 (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You don't share any of the numerous quotes where Hindu demigods are dismissed as illusions, and tell of the fruitlessness of worshipping them. Hindus can't honestly call the Guru Granth Sahib and the Dasven Granth Hindu poetic masterpieces and simultaneously believe that it is literal. Poetry is metaphor, and metaphor is used extensively in those tomes. You can't pull quotes out of context to support your point; many quotes that can be used for your purposes are parts or larger stories where the Gurus say to worshippers of false Hindu idols, 'Waheguru is the REAL (insert random Hindu demigod here)' as opposed to 'Waheguru IS (insert random Hindu demigod here)'. And this article really should be deleted, as its mere existence implies more of a link than there really is (none). 3swordz (talk) 09:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Implying there is no link is entirely your own agenda and not that of the Gurus. Tell me about simple panjabi farmers of the 16th century and their grand understanding of metaphors, or perhaps the Gurus were actually using plain language so that common folk could understand them? Sounds more plausible. Now as far as wordhipping Demi Gods goes, the Bhagavad Gita even states;

"Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet." BG 7.23

HELP!!! NEEDED for Article on Sikh Rajputs

Someone put a tag on "Sikh Rajputs" article that it will be deleted in five days etc., this article can not be deleted as Sikh Rajputs exist and most claims made in the article are true as well known to local Indians in Punjab only the need is that some interested and knowledgeable editors with access to proper history books etc. can eventually come forward and develop the article properly in time, quoting credible sources. Foreign born and raised editors with no direct local Indian knowledge are requested not to vandalize it as per their own fastly held thoughts and beliefs.

Thanks

Atulsnischal (talk) 09:32, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Sikh names

Some people will not accept cultural differences between Sikhs and Hindus, like Sikhs cannot have their own culture without the blessing of Hindus. Someone put this up:

*Many Sikhs have adopted Hindu names such as Devender, Jitender, Joginder, Manjeet, Gaganjeet, Govind,Arjan ,Angad, Raminder, Jeet, Preet, Inder, Veer etc. as their own, as they are in close geographical proximity.

Names like Joginder, Manjeet, Gaganjeet, Raminder, and most names ending in -inder, -preet, or -veer are culturally Punjabi names, with mostly Sikhs having names in this fashion and very few Hindus (very few Hindu males, NO females), and no Hindus with those particular names. Govind, I will concede, is predominantly a Hindu name, and Arjan is more Hindu, but Punjabi Sikhs do not have names in this style for , and moreover this argument is not about those names.

More urbanized Sikhs outside of Punjab but in India living among Hindus (Jatts call them "Papae," can't really show the pronunciation,)may adopt Hindu names for their children on rare occasion, like names with Abhi- or -esh for males, or names ending with -a for females, for example (Abhi-, -esh, and -a are firmly Hindu), but their numbers are near inconsequential. Point is, there is a rather firm dichotomy, and Punjabi Hindus may adopt the names of the majority Sikhs in Punjab when they're surrounded by them.

If you think I'm just inferring this from a general observation, I live in the Bay Area (abound with Hindus, Sikhs, Asians, Middle East, etc.) and have a job that involves customers signing payment documents; I go through hundreds each day. As most of the clients are of Hindu persuasion, you see a pattern with these things. Sure it's not scientific, but it's not like all the Hindus with Punjabified names stayed back in India, and it's a pretty large random sample. It's an inference that isn't absurd to make. Hindus need to just back off with their assimilation propaganda and accept this; it wasn't until you found out you outnumbered us a hundredfold that you found the courage to try and dictate what our culture is anyway.3swordz (talk) 08:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Superfluous discussion on differences or similarities

This is a completely superfluous discussion repeated at countless forums. It serves only one purpose and that is to give a chance to motivated individuals to irritate and spew venom. Nobody can force another person let alone a community to subsume his or her identity to his own.

No community emerges or develops in a vacuum.

India is a large country and Hinduism itself as practiced from one region to another and one community to another can be vastly dissimilar. Dissimilarities in religious beliefs and practices even between Hindus from a common region can be substantial.

On the other hand as the Sikh community has grown ( in numbers) so has the heterogeneous growth of sub sects . Some have an overtly religious disposition while others have regional or clan identities.

The irony is that the politics and politicians of identity (dharma rakshak). …While on the one hand champion the right to protect the identity of a community, are the first ones to takeaway the right of the individual to his/her identity.

The killing of the girl child among Punjabis of all hues is certainly one issue where there seems to be a high degree of common concurrence … .is the girl child Less Sikh, less Hindu, Less Human??
Cheers
Intothefire (talk) 07:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Flagrant misuse of sources

A bunch of quotes were pulled out of context, in some cases altered, and placed in the article, probably by a Hindu who wanted to portray Sikhs as also vegetarian. I've added some context to reveal their true context; they have nothing to do with vegetarianism. As people well know, a few of the Gurus were themselves hunters, at times for sport. Hindu propagandists frequently misuse sources on many, many articles. This little section will show just a little of that. For more info, simply access the source: www.srigranth.org :

• Page 467: "They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world, And eat a simple diet of grain and water."

This line emphasizes simplicity, and no gluttony.

• Page 332: "You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain."

What's funny is that this passage condemns not meat-eating, but Hindu practices, hypocrisy, and corruption! Irony...: They do not listen to the Lord's Praises, and they do not sing the Lord's Glories, but they try to bring down the sky with their talk. You should always be careful around those whom God has excluded from His devotional worship. They do not offer even a handful of water, while they slander the one who brought forth the Ganges. Sitting down or standing up, their ways are crooked and evil. They ruin themselves, and then they ruin others. They know nothing except evil talk. They would not even obey Brahma's orders. They themselves are lost, and they mislead others as well. They set their own temple on fire, and then they fall asleep within it. He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them. Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want. | You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain. You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean. You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God. Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. (332)

• Page 1350: "Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect.

OUT OF CONTEXT:Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. This line preaches simply open-mindedness of all belief systems. It was altered to try to legitimize Hindu texts only, for Sikhs. You're slipping, Hindutva friends.

If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen?" This is part of a critique of the Muslim Halal prayer practice, praying over lifeless matter. Read the whole passage, don't yank quotes out of context.

• Page 723: "The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat. So control your urges, or else the Lord wil throw you into hell."

gluttony and materialism. once again, read the passage.

• Page 898/899: "You are the treasure of mercy, O my Beloved Lord God. I cannot even describe Your many Glorious Virtues. The cat sees the meat, but does not eat it, and the great butcher throws away his knife; the Creator Lord God abides in the heart; the net holding the fish breaks apart."

God's mercy and benevolence. Some context:

You are the treasure of mercy, O my Beloved Lord God. I cannot even describe Your many Glorious Virtues. The cat sees the meat, but does not eat it, and the great butcher throws away his knife; the Creator Lord God abides in the heart; the net holding the fish breaks apart. The dry wood blossoms forth in greenery and red flowers; in the high desert, the beautiful lotus flower blooms. The Divine True Guru puts out the fire.

• Page 1374: "Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut?"

this quote is either fabricated or alternately (and erroneously) translated from the said source. Anyway, read the passage.

*And to anyone who tries to say that Sikhs literally refer to and therefore worship Hindu gods: Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. 1374

And there are other passages that make this point, or that the Hindu gods are flat-out false.3swordz (talk) 02:23, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Dubious

The assertion "Sikhs do not go to Hindu temples" needs clarification. As it stands it is just not true. It sounds as though Sikhs are barred from visiting Hindu temples, when in fact they do. The Mandir that I attend has many Hindus from the Punjab, and there are very close connections between their community and the Sikh community, many families are related by marriages. It is not unusual to see Sikhs in the Mandir. What I think this means is that Sikhs would not go to a mandir specifically to worship (though some do seem to worship when there but not directly facing the murtis). This should be clarified. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that the statement is self-evident, that it already means that Sikhs don't worship worship in the Hindu way. It should be taken for what it implies, not just literally. Of course Sikhs aren't banned from going to mandirs, I've been in a Hindu mandir once for a few minutes to drop off a gift for my Hindu neighbor's new kid; I wasn't kicked out. That aside, idol worship is forbidden in Sikhism (never mind what they "seem" to do). Just change the wording, there's no need for a tag.67.170.242.72 (talk) 14:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

This was actually 3swordz, when I'm on other computers I sometimes forget to log in, sorry. 3swordz (talk) 14:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

At the mandir that I attend, the man who rings the kantee (bell) is a sikh. He is an elder who wears a turban and has a beard (so I know he is Sikh). My best friend is a sikh person and she and her family ALWAYS go to the mandir on shivratri and diwali. I think people who say that sikhs don't go to the mandir and hindus don't go to the gurudwara are intolerant and quite backwards. Open your eyes and take a look at reality. There are many sikhs who donate to the mandir and there are many hindus that go to the gurudwara. In the community that I live in the mandir is usually atleast 25 to 30% sikh - and there is a gurudwara next door so it's not because they don't have anywhere else to go. I think we need to be accepting of the fact that sikhs and hindus - especially those from Punjab are connected more than we like to believe. Unity717 (talk) 05:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

This article deals with conventions, not exceptions. One weakly-backed counterexample changes nothing. The fact of the matter is that Sikhs by and large go to Gurdwaras exclusively. Punjabi Hindus may go sometimes as well; living in such a Sikh-dominated region they have often taken on some Sikh characteristics: for example, they may venerate the Sikh Gurus as bhagats, but by doing Hindu-style puja to their images, etc. They aren't Sikh but often aren't purely Hindu either, traditions meld. No one is denying Punjabi cultural connectedness. Regardless, you still can't "equitably" sort out cultural characteristics (like, "oh, as many Sikhs go to mandirs as Punjabi Hindus go to Gurdwaras!") no matter how much it doesn't sit well with you. As for your random stats, and your "kantee" being a Sikh, wherever this venue is, I strongly doubt that. The proscription of idol worship and devotion to any other god/gods is a central tenet of Sikhism, one that is stated unequivocally. Stating that Sikhs always go to Gurdwaras is closer to the truth than your PC-everyone-goes-everywhere-or-else-it-isn't-fair version of the world, so don't throw around "backward" and "intolerant." Don't try to edit the truth to make everyone happy if it distorts it. Such statements aren't made out of malice, it's the truth.3swordz (talk) 07:06, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Shortcomings - question mainly for Sikhs

The following are listed as references in th Guru Granth Sahib to Shortcomings in other Scriptures

• Page 148 - ਵੇਦ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਣ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਣਾ ॥ - The Vedas speak and expound on the Lord, but they do not know His limits.
• Page 355 - ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ - The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know His mystery.
• Guru Nanak, on page 1021 - ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਤਾ ॥ - Neither the Vedas (four Hindu texts) nor the four Katebas [Semitic texts: the Torah, the Zabur (Psalms), the Injil (Gospel), and the Quran] know the mystery (of the Creator of the Cosmos).[9]

• Page 1237 - ਨਵ ਛਿਅ ਖਟ ਕਾ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਿਸਿ ਦਿਨ ਉਚਰੈ ਭਾਰ ਅਠਾਰ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੋਹਿ ॥ - You may study the nine grammars, the six Shaastras and the six divisions of the Vedas. You may recite the Mahaabhaarata. Even these cannot find the limits of the Lord.

Are these really meant as short comings. I would read it (maybe naively) as saying that God is limitless, if He does have any limits we cannot comprehend them even in our greatest holy books. I would say that these quotes would only amount to shortcomings if the Guru Granth Sahib does describe limits to God. IThe same goes for God's mysteries.

In fact the only reference that I would say could possibly be a "shortcoming" is this one:

• Page 1126 - ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਹੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਅੰਧੁਲਉ ਧੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਈ ॥੩॥ - The Shaastras and the Vedas keep the mortal bound to the three modes of Maya, and so he performs his deeds blindly. ||3||

Reading it [in context] it could be talking about someone with an impure heart. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that the God referred to in the Guru Granth Sahib is simply described as unknowable, and it makes no attempts to quantify God's power, whether through earthly manifestation (giving power to insignificant Hindu gods; trying to justify God's actions as in the Western texts; describing Jesus as God's "special" son, or even more boldly as God incarnate; angels maybe as well?) or otherwise. May sound like a cop-out at first, lol, but it does strengthen God's absolute power on another level, to be worked for through good deeds. At any rate, no other religious text is belittled; as one quote in that very section states, "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false"(1350). They are simply trying to attribute qualities to the unquantifiable. Nanak himself made no claims to divinity. This is just my interpretation as a Sikh. 3swordz (talk) 20:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks 3swordz, this is useful. The article as it stands seems to imply the opposite, that the Vedas do not specify some limits which are there. Incidentally, I don't see myself how the existence of demigods or devas limits God any more than any being having free will does, but that is OR so I won't put it in. I will try to clarify the references. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Comparison with Christian-Jewish relations

It seems rather similar, who else thinks its a good idea