Talk:Catholic Church in Somalia

Moslem POV

I read, Middayexpress, on your contributions that you are a kind of "specialist" in Somalian topics on en.wikipedia, and I respect your continuous commitment. But I understand even that you are a moslem and you seem to want to "erase" the catholic presence in Somalia even in en.wikipedia. I, as a catholic, feel a bit upset by your denial of catholicism in Somalia. I have added references and you quickly erased those evidences....why? They are not OR. The sentences added can be found here, just before the "after slavery" section. I am sorry, but this is en. wikipedia and I am ready to start a complaint procedure if you revert again.--LittleTony (talk) 02:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

moved from LittleTony's talkpage:

Kindly stop adding original research to the Roman Catholicism in Somalia article. You claim the following:

Catholicism was introduced in the part of Somalia that was called Italian Somalia in the late 1800s. The other areas with Somalian people (namely former British Somaliland, French Somaliland, Ethiopian Ogaden and Kenya north-eastern provinces) practically had no catholic presence.

Initially catholicism was practiced only by the few Italian colonists in Mogadishu and the Shebelle river farmer areas. But after WWI many Somalians become catholics: most of them were former black slaves, called Somali Bantu, in the Villaggio Duca degli Abruzzi and Genale plantations.

In 1895, the first 45 slaves were freed by the Italian colonial authority under the administration of the chartered catholic company "Filonardi" and converted to catholicism. Massive emancipation and conversion of slaves in Somalia only began after the antislavery activist father Robecchi Bricchetti informed the Italian public about the slave trade in Somalia and the indifferent attitude of the Italian colonial government toward the trade.

You've indicated that this source supports your edit, even though that source does not even once mention Catholicism. In fact, the last paragraph you paraphrased actually reads as follows:

In 1895, the first 45 slaves were freed by the Italian colonial authority under the administration of the chartered company, V. Filonardi. Massive emancipation of slaves in Somalia only began after the antislavery activist Robecchi Bricchetti informed the Italian public about the slave trade in Somalia and the indifferent attitude of the Italian colonial government toward the trade. Slavery in southern Somalia lasted until early into the 20th century when it was abolished by the Italian colonial authority in accordance with the Belgium protocol. Some inland groups remained in slavery until the 1930s, however.

As can be seen above, it's all about the slave trade, not Catholicism. That is both off-topic & original research (OR) on your part, and OR is not permitted on Wikipedia. Again, please desist with this disruptive behavior. Middayexpress (talk) 05:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but what I wrote is not OR. I am adding my source for the first two paragraphs above: "Gresleri, G. Mogadiscio ed il Paese dei Somali: una identita negata. Marsilio editori. Venezia, 1993" --LittleTony (talk) 03:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, the Filonardi company was partially property of the Vatican. The conversion of slaves was done by catholic missionaries, mainly in the Genale and Villabruzzi, according to Tripodi (Tripodi, Paolo. The Colonial Legacy in Somalia. p. 66). I am going to revert, adding these references. Hope you'll agree. --LittleTony (talk) 03:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, your material was OR when I wrote that post above. This is easily verifiable by following the links to the actual website in question. Now you have returned with the exact same WP:FRINGE sources a blocked user, one User:DuilioM, attempted to repeatedly add to the Italian Somalians article, and which I explained to him was fringe. Tripodi is the only source here or anywhere else that makes the outrageous claim that "there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle". This is directly contradicted by every other source by doyens of Somali Studies (i.e. actual experts on Somalia), all of whom make it clear that Catholicism never managed to penetrate the Somali community. Even the Catholic Church in Somalia's own website makes it clear that there were only 8,500 Catholics in Somalia in 1950, at the height of the colonial era, not "40,000". That is barely a fraction of the outrageous figure Tripodi & only Tripodi is claiming. Bottom line, Tripodi's theory is fringe since he is the only one claiming this preposterous, grossly inflated figure for the number of Somali Catholics. Furthermore, his claim is contradicted by the authoritative work of multiple sources on Somalia, including ironically that of the Diocese of Mogadishu itself. Tripodi's source is also in Italian, not in English, and Wikipedia makes it clear that "English-language sources are preferable to sources in other languages so that readers can easily verify the content of the article." The only time it makes an exception is when one produces a professional translation of the material in question ("Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors"), which you of course have not done. You've translated it yourself. Lastly, on Wikipedia, Wikipedia:PROVEIT#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources. Tripodi's assertion that "there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle" is obviously an exceptional claim. This is because Tripodi is the only one claiming this (thereby making it fringe), and this claim is, again, directly contradicted by numerous authoritative sources on Somalia, including that of the Diocese of Mogadishu itself. Tripodi's book also hardly qualifies as an exceptional source, as it isn't even in English to begin with, so what it states is unverifiable for the English-speaking readers of this English website. Kindly stop attempting to insert false or fringe material into the article. Middayexpress (talk) 16:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

You, Middayexpress, repeat and repeat and repeat the same things in a byzantine way. Please stop reverting. I am NOT inserting false material. Here it is why:

• Tripodi is not the only source. I have given two more sources and you have changed the phrase where they were referenced (and I'll demonstrate it on a probation case, if needed).
• The phrase (that you erase again and again) ...But after WWI many Somalians become catholics: most of them were former black slaves, called Somali Bantu, in the Villaggio Duca degli Abruzzi and Genale plantations... is taken from Gresleri, G. Mogadiscio ed il Paese dei Somali: una identita negata. p.71 Please, do NOT erase serious sources.
• The Catholic Church in Somalia's own website has data ONLY from 1950 and has NO DATA for the years before WWII. Why you "forget" this?
• Stop repeating the same mistake that "there were only 8,500 Catholics in Somalia in 1950, at the height of the colonial era", because in 1950 we were NOT at the height of the colonial era and we were already in decolonization times all around the world (after WWII). The height of the Italian colonial era was during Fascism, when was conquered Ethiopia and Somalia was enlarged -even as a gift to the Somali soldiers who fought bravely in the Italian colonial army- with the Ogaden.
• I don't care if a banned user has found information about 40000 Somalis catholics and I use the same resources and data: Wikipedia accepts contributions from everyone, if they are well referenced of course. And IMHO they are well referenced. Furthermore, a catholic bishop will NEVER declare such a lie. And for what reason? He has no obligation toward the fascism regime...he is fully independent and to state 9000 or 40000 followers will be the same for him. You are doing OR, without doubt....I repeat, where did you find that the bishop was saying such a lie?
• What are your "Somali studies"? In those 1920s and 1930s the only studies in Somalia where from the Italians and were just a few....and I am talking of studies done in those years and so with contemporary and proven data, not studies done in postwar Somalia based on "supposed old data".
• The population of Italian Somalia in the late 1930s was about 750000, of whom 25000 were Italian colonists/military. How it is possible that the catholics in Somalia were only 8500 at the top?
• The main catholic cathedral -now destroyed- in Mogadishu was similar to one in Sicily. Do you know the capacity? More than 5000 people in the Sicilian one. Usually a cathedral is done -as a rule- to contain in a special/important religious mass about 10% of the catholics of the area. Why they built such a cathedral in Mogadishu, if there were so few catholics? The size of the one in Mogadishu was calculated for a total population in Somalia of nearly 50000 catholics...and this confirms Tripodi, don't you agree?
• Please stop with the complaint that Tripodi's book is not in English. I believe nearly one tenth of the bibliograghy in English Wikipedia is not in English. In the Italian Wikipedia -and I am sure of it- nearly 1/4 of the bibliography is not in Italian, because there are many books in english.
• Excerpt from Italian Somalians talkpage: ..."here it is the exact words in the Tripodi book:Il vescovo di Mogadiscio, don Franco Filippini, dichiarava nel 1940 che vi erano circa 40.000 Somali cattolici, frutto del lavoro missionario specialmente nelle aree agricole del Giuba e dell'Uebi Scebeli (The Bishop of Mogadischu, Franco Filippini, stated in 1940 that there were nearly 40,000 native Somalians of catholic faith, consequence of the missions mainly in the agricultural areas of the rivers Juba and Schebelle). What is wrong with this excerpt? You even agreed initially to post it in the article Italians Somalians.

Finally, where and what are your sources? Please, for the last time, do not revert repeating the same contemporary moslem POVs that the "Catholicism never managed to penetrate the Somali community". This is propaganda not accepted in Wikipedia. Reliable sources demonstrate that there was a penetration in the 1930s, even if small.--LittleTony (talk) 04:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)