Talk:Abortion

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Can someone add information

can someone add information to the abortion law section for me, one part states "In the United Kingdom, as in some other countries, two doctors must first certify that an abortion is medically or socially necessary before it can be performed." this appears as though it applies to the whole of the UK but in Northern Ireland abortion is illegal, you can't travel to get one nor can you supply information on where/how to get one. RyanM651 (talk) 02:50, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Done.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Slashes

The MOS frowns on slashes. Yet, we have a slash in the opening sentence: "An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus/embryo, resulting in or caused by its death." It's understandable that people would want to avoid having yet another "or" in this sentence, but I think a slight rephrase could easily remove the slash, while also giving the reader a slight clue about the difference between the linked terms (so the reader will know which one to click on).

So, how about this: "An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of an embryo (instead a fetus later in pregnancy) resulting in or caused by its death."Ferrylodge (talk) 16:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

That's an odd use of "instead" to my ear. How about, in your parentheses: "or, later in pregnancy, a fetus"? -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Either way. Some people previously objected to so many "ors" in the sentence.Ferrylodge (talk) 17:27, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

In that case, "later in pregnancy, a fetus". -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

"An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of an embryo (later in pregnancy, a fetus) resulting in or caused by its death."Ferrylodge (talk) 17:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Simpler option: "An abortion is the removal or expulsion from the uterus either of an embryo or of a fetus, excluding live birth." LeadSongDog come howl 20:21, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Any change we make should me minimal. Endless debate has already occurred regarding the lead sentence, and there's no need to re-open questions like whether the lead sentence should include words like "pregnancy" and "death". Moreover, as I said, it would be nice to give readers some slight clue about the difference between an embryo and fetus so they know which one to click on for more info. A primary reason why the MOS frowns on slashes is because "It suggests that the two are related, but does not specify how." So, again, if we could just decide (yea or nay) on this change: "An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of an embryo/fetus embryo (later in pregnancy, a fetus) resulting in or caused by its death." This is a minimal change, and brings the sentence into conformity with the MOS.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:25, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

(after EC)Yeah, slashes aren't perfect, but I think adding extra words is worse. It makes it verbose. I prefer keeping the slash. It seems like there are so many concerns regarding the definition that so many qualifying clauses were added. I personally don't think we need to differentiate in the lead between an embryo or a fetus, given one of the common definitions of "fetus". I also don't thin we need the death clause either, but I lost that battle years and years ago. Imagine a more simple sentence without those two complexities... we can always dream, eh? I think what we have now is a decent balance (compromise, if you will). Sure there is probably room for improvement somewhere. I just don't think adding extra words between embryo and fetus is the way to go. -Andrew c ^[talk] 21:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the amended sentence is wordy at all. Thirty words is not wordy. I suppose that putting a slash there has some ironic propriety, but I'd prefer to follow MOS.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Results of banning abortions

Someone objected to the use of a reference from Nicaragua on the grounds that it was biased and Nicaragua-specific. The next point is Bangladesh-specific--so what? the article reports, or should report, facts from around the world.

A few nations ban abortion entirely: Chile, El Salvador, Ireland, Malta, and Nicaragua, with consequent rises in maternal death directly and indirectly due to pregnancy.

Nicaragua was used because it is a location in which laws against abortion were changed on a specific date, with a specific objectively measurable result in public health: at least 82 deaths of women of childbearing age in the months immediately following. The source may be "biased," I don't know; but the facts are not in dispute. The bias may only be that the organization cared to report the results of the law's passage and of the delegation's findings.

If death isn't a consequence worth reporting, what is a relevant consequence? A debunked rumor that abortion causes breast cancer? --Monado (talk) 15:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

• See WP:NOR and WP:MEDRS. Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 22:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Rwx, what is your point? Monado has cites; he's not offering medical advice. Please either address his view or refrain from commenting, thanks. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 11:38, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

"Refrain from commenting"? I'll comment if I want. Monado's sole source is a pro-abortion website, and refers only to recent events in Nicaragua. He himself admits it "may be biased". Some of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia are no original research, and use reliable sources, especially when dealing with such a contentious issue. (As it happens, the Irish medical establishment holds that banning abortion in Ireland does not increase the maternal death rate, though I can't find reliable sources at present.) Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 16:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm well aware of the guiding principles; NOR and MEDRS do not apply to the content, therefore your posting them was unhelpful; your childish "I'll comment if I want" ignores my objection to your post was that it was inapplicable, and therefore useless in this situation. Bias is a more tenable objection. As most of the content in this article is US centric, that the suggested content is Nicaragua based is an argument for inclusion, not exclusion, in order to promote a less biased worldview. I support inclusion of the material, and invite participation in a discussion regarding whether the source is biased; how biased it might be; and how to phrase the content for accuracy. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 17:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Rwxrwxrwx, the figures for Nicaragua were also cited by MSNBC, but I don't like to cite them because their news articles tend to disappear. The delegation wasn't from a biased site, but from the European Union Government. Unfortunately, I could not find the committee report on their site in a reasonable amount of time, perhaps due to volume. I also didn't say that the site is biased; it simply contained the most complete description that I found of the figure, which I remember from news stories of the time, that more than 80 women had died of abortion or of pregnancy that might have been terminated earlier in less than a year in one small country, after it changed its abortion laws. I'm sorry that you feel the site is biased. However, it records a very small, clear, and abrupt change in law followed by a very large, clear, and abrupt rise in deaths. As I said, perhaps only they cared to repeat the findings in detail; there's no heated language, logical fallacies, nor obviously distorted facts. I believe that the facts as cited are verifiable. Next time, I'll try to get something from the World Health Organization.

I suspect that medically Ireland is quite different from Nicaragua. For one thing, women in Ireland routinely slip out of the country to have legal abortions and so don't have septic, illegal abortions or die of pregnancy complications. Even more important, the laws in Nicaragua are very harsh. Doctors who do abortions or women who have them can be imprisoned for thirty years. And any provision for saving a woman's life is extremely limited. If a woman has an ectopic pregnancy in one of her fallopian tubes, which is a death sentence for the embryo and a dangerous emergency for the woman, Nicaraguan doctors must wait until the embryo bursts the tube and causes hemorrhaging before they can operate. That, of course, makes the situation urgent and increases the chance that the woman will bleed to death before getting to a hospital, to say nothing of what it does to her chances of having a successful pregnancy later. Women can be forced to undergo examinations to see if it looks as if they had an abortion and persecuted, sorry, prosecuted if the examiner thinks they might have.

One of the consequences of this health legal regime is that doctors are understandably afraid to do gynecological procedures, even if they have nothing to do with abortion, and women are understandably afraid to go to doctors for complications of pregnancy, even if they don't want abortions. So not only have women died from illegal abortions and risky pregnancy, the number of pregnant women dying of "unrelated" problems of pregnancy or reproductive organs has increased. Without the option to end a health-threatening pregnancy, the number of women dying from other illnesses made worse by pregnancy has doubled.

So you see, the consequences of this law are unusually stark and clear because the law itself is so purely protective of fetuses.

I did not go on detailing the effects of the law in all their horror because I wish to maintain a neutral and objective point of view. But I do think that the bare death rate, at least, deserves mention because it is the most obvious and measurable result on living, breathing human beings of anti-abortion laws.

I can also attempt to find out what happened in the other countries. Although, dollars to doughnuts, the death rate rose there too, I can rephrase the sentence that is footnoted to state only that the death rate rose in Nicaragua. In fact, I think I'll do that right now. Monado (talk) 01:51, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Monado, I respect you have a certain view, but quality references are important, as this is one of the most contentious issues in the whole abortion debate. I live in Ireland where abortion is banned, other than as an unavoidable side-effect result of necessary medical treatment, but there has been a lot of debate on the subject here, and the medical establishment, after much research and debate, holds that the ban does not increase maternal deaths here. But I am not trying to push this viewpoint as neither Ireland nor Nicaragua represent the world. If you can find some not-obviously-biased WHO material with a global view, that would probably be a quality reference. Rwxrwxrwx (talk) 21:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm sorry, are you calling the World Health Organization biased? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 12:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

One does wonder granted they support things like "developing a national action plan for access to safe abortion": http://www.euro.who.int/Tajikistan/20090708_1?PrinterFriendly=1& LCP (talk) 16:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Honor killing

Have any pro-life/anti-abortion activists ever expressed the view that certain kinds of abortion could be a form of honor killing ? In many kinds of ways, it brings shame to a woman or girl who is forced to carry out her pregnancy, and in late-term cases, many people would agree that terminating a fairly developed fetus does constitute a killing per se. [1] Other possible cases of honor killing would be the unlawful murdering of abortion providers such as George Tiller for motives of honor. [2] There is also a strange opposite phenomenon of providing free abortions in honor of slain abortionists. [3] ADM (talk) 10:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Now, that is Original Research. So far as I know, no pro-life group has suggested that any type of abortion is an honor killing, and I think most pro-life advocates, while passionate about their view, are logical enough and reality based enough to not make such silly comparisons. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 11:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Breast cancer hypothesis

This topic should receive little or no space since it is a busted myth. The papers lovingly referred to in the footnotes are all 25 - 30 years old. It was a hypothesis that didn't work out. Much larger sample sizes and reviews failed to find any link between abortion and breast cancer. Any summary should point that out. If I recall correctly, if there was any association it was with being pregnant for too long and not breastfeeding. Monado (talk) 02:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Just because the scientific consensus has said there is no correlation, does this mean we should omit mentioning it on Wikipedia?--Geremia (talk) 21:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Saying ABC is a "busted myth" is as ideological as saying there is a "link" between them. Reading the abstract summary of the 1997 Melbye study should make this clear to anyone who can read more than the overall conclusion. An increase of 3% per week of gestation does not agree with the assertion of "failed to find any link". - RoyBoy 17:35, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

The main article at Abortion-breast cancer hypothesis makes it fairly clear its bunk, but I agree the synopsis here needs reworking for clarity. The verbiage we now have does not make it clear this has been thoroughly dismissed by the medical community (ie; all people in the medical field not currently getting paid to testify for lawsuits.) KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 11:35, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Dr. Daling being a notable exception. Further one should not apply the thorough dismissal by many notable sources as being applicable to the entire "medical community". - RoyBoy 18:27, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Calling pregnant women "mothers".

You may have noticed some conflicting edits in abortion-related articles regarding what to call women who get pregnant. There's an open discussion here that could probably benefit from more eyes. 69.121.221.174 (talk) 04:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Objective Definition should not be changed

The long-standing objective definition was collectively and painstakingly developed by dozens of editors (with diverse viewpoints, backgrounds, and knowledge) over a period of months; in the end, a formulation that includes reference to the death of the fetus was found to be necessary in order to be scientifically and medically accurate and objective.

Lacking this scientifically and medically necessary refence to fetal death, the recently edited version ("termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo" )is inaccurate and subjective (and thus highly un-wikipedia).

While countless hours were spent debating many substantive concerns on all angles of this specific "death of the fetus" topic, one common pregnancy situation exemplifies that there is no abortion unless expulsion or removal of the fetus causes or was caused by fetal death.

When a doctor removes a healthy baby from the mother's womb during a C-section and hands it to the father, there has been a "termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo", but no abortion. This and other examples are unassailable reasons that any accurate definition must cover fetal demise (which in plain English is death of the fetus or fetal death)

The fact that all pregnancies terminate renders the euphemism "termination of pregnancy" inadequate to describe the fetal death that is always part of abortion; we can call to mind any pregnancy that ends in a live birth, and also recall that artificially induced labor is one type of induced termination of pregnancy.

When a woman carrying twins experiences the "removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus" via abortion (selective reduction or miscarriage) of 1 of the fetuses at week 12, and 19 weeks later she delivers the other healthy twin; the continued development (aka life) of the first fetal twin was aborted at week 12, but there was certainly no "termination of pregnancy" until the healthy second twin was born at week 31.

71.52.188.76 (talk) 15:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)