Talk:Arnold J. Toynbee

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As a novice user interested in the ideas and contributions of Arnold Toynbee, I find the article distinctly lacking. I also notice more emphasis on the issue of criticism (though it remains unclear to what exactly, it feels as if the article is just trying to make it clear that there sure is a lot of criticism out there) and pretty little on Toynbee's ideas and achievements. Also, surely a work of the scope of a Story of Civilization should merit a bit more attention? What about a bibliography? --190.48.103.105 13:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to see a bibliography of works by Toynbee...--JECompton 01:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Easiest way to do that (for books and collections, anyway) is go to the Library of Congress website, [1] and type in his name under "Author Browse." It's a very long list. --Michael K. Smith 18:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm - the external link is to a publisher's blurb. Not that I don't find more to say for Toynbee that some historians. But NPOV? I don't think so.

Charles Matthews 08:11, 9 Sep 2003 (EDT)

To anon. editor adding bibliography: there is no format standard at this point for books - but upper case is not it.

Also, please be careful of the category and interwiki links at the bottom of pages.

Charles Matthews 11:05, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Noted. Thanks. Do you want me to lower case it all? This is the first Toynbee bibliography on the web, as far as I am aware, and relies on S. Fiona Morton. It includes all published items of 70 pages or more in length listed in her work, Bibliography of Arnold J. Toynbee, OUP, 1980, including his contributions to works by others, other than

• his contributions to the 13th and subsequent editions of the Encyclopædia Britannica, which may have exceeded 70 pages per edition

• material published only outside the English-speaking world (reprints of journalism or of locally delivered lectures, selections from his works for Japanese or other readers, etc)

• translations of his works.

Dialogues published in the English-speaking world and books edited by Toynbee, or co-authored with one other writer or collaborator, are mentioned even where his contribution may have amounted to fewer than 70 pages.

Publication dates are for first editions (first publication of the relevant material in this form). Revisions to subsequent editions are not normally shown. The place of publication is London unless otherwise stated. If a work was published simultaneously in the UK and elsewhere, only the UK details are shown.

For his journalism and his many other contributions to books, see Morton.

David Derrick

Yes please do lower case. Please note that Wikipedia has to be careful on all copyright matters. I think it is questionable whether any copyright can obtain on simple lists of works, but I'm not sure the same can be said for bibliographical details. I tend to err on the side of giving quite spare lists of titles and dates. Charles Matthews 20:19, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Had also concluded lists could not be copyright. Some of the amplification is from me anyway. How much of it to give in an encyclopedia environment is also a tough call. Will rethink that point when I do the format change.

David Derrick

One way would be to create a section of the article surveying the major works. If those summaries are basically your own work (i.e. are not verbatim from your source), there should not actually be any problem here. Charles Matthews 07:59, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

alleged Anti-Semitic Record

It should be noted that during the Holocaust, Toynbee was among those prominent British personalities who slandered Jews attempting to escape to Israel as Nazis. His anti-Semtic record should be noted.

MSTCrow 09:20, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Can you site where Toynbee did this? Nobs 18:26, 29 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, he did it at various times in public and through his writings.

MSTCrow 00:03, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Well, that is my question. Where specifically in his writings can it be cited. While I cannot claim to have read everything, I have spent a good deal of time reading very much of it (some several times over), and what I haven't read I have access to. Thanks. Nobs01 00:35, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm surprised to hear of this and assume it's just an ad hominem attack on his theories. I've read much of the 2-volume abridgment of Toynbee's Study of History and found nothing in it which offends me as a Jew. If he made any anti-semitic remarks I'd like to see these compared and contrasted with his views of Jews and Judaism as expressed in his main work. Uncle Ed 14:24, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This stems from a rebuttal to a stand Toynbee took in 1947 with the end of the British Mandate that rights of Palestinians still needed to be respected. It is available somewhere on the internet, but of coarse to the charge of anti-Semitism, there is no substance. It's just an example of the flaming rhetoric of the times, someone tried to exaggerate that Toynbee was opposed to the creation of the State of Isreal. nobs 16:25, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This might shed light on the record,

"[Sir Lewis] Namier objected to Toynbee's presentation "because," Toynbee explained, "by this time he had become an ardent Zionist, while I . . . was becoming more and more doubtful whether the mandatory power was going to succeed in reconciling its commitments to the Palestinian Arabs with its commitments in Palestine to the Jews. I feared that the Arabs, were going to get an unfair deal. . ." [2]. nobs 00:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I think he said things like Zionism shouldn't go the way of apartheid, not that the word was then used; but took South Africa as a negative example. Charles Matthews 08:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It was an emotional time; the State of Isreal was in its infancy, and I don't beleive it can be said Toynbee opposed its creation, he just spoke up about Britain's commitment under the mandate, and was criticized by paranoid critics, as these things usually get exaggerated. nobs 16:46, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Even if Toynbee was opposed to the creation of Israel, that just makes him anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.

Toynbee and Jews

There were actually allegations from ca. the 1950's-1960's that Toynbee seemed to resent the Jews because they conspicuously failed to fit within his grand overall abstract scheme of history, and some pointed out that he seemed to give very short shrift to the Old Testament in early editions of his history (while celebrating most other forms of ancient literature and culture). Some also found his approach to the whole middle-east problem to consist of insufferably patronizing and condescending lectures to the Jews on how they were the whole problem, and how he imperatively required and demanded that they revert to the overall role in history which he, Arnold J. Toynbee, personally assigned to them. This could all be documented with sufficient research, but I don't have the material to hand right now... AnonMoos 18:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Needs more meat

A new reader having plowed through the entire -word article would have learned little about Toynbee's theories. Only 775 of th 2300 words are about him, and the 450 words about his approach to history shed little light on his views: they don't even list all the stages in a civilizations lifecycle and ignore completely Toynbee's concept of "Affiliation". Challenge-and-response is but one aspect. Uncle Ed 14:30, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree; most analysis like this always claim Toynbee's Theory of Challenge & Response is related to environment; that may be the first example he uses in his text, however the threory recurs again and again and again, as social challenges, political challenges, economic challenges etc. This would be an excellent place to expand upon, and clarify some of Toynbeee's ideas. nobs 16:29, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I can add some of what Curtius wrote. Charles Matthews 16:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Toynbee does mention environment, but his point about challenge and response is wider than that: he speaks of the need for the challenge to be not so much that it overwhelms you (like colonizing Greenland), but not so easy that you lapse into idyllic laziness (like people who live in sub-Saharan Africa, picking breakfast off a tree branch). I gotta crack open my copy of it again.

But I can't write this whole encyclopedia by myself!! Why do so many articles on important figures and topics have to suck so badly? Uncle Ed 20:09, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This page right now is owned by Toynbee's critics; it needs input from people who not just read Toynbee, but actually have some understaning of what he said. nobs 20:37, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

correcting the tone of the page

I made some corrections today to the page. I tried to tone down some of the statements made. I would seriously suggest that if people want to critique his work in this manner that that seperate sections be created on the page both cases can be presented.

I dont think its right to combine a description of his career and ideas with a hostile dismissive critique of them at the same time.

Looks good. While I disagree with many, many of Toynbee's conclusions, his method of approach and investifation is unparalleled, and deserves study just for that reason. Also, Toynbee didn't write his works for the academic community, where all the rejection comes from. And it is quickly obvious to anyone reading, his work is not simply an academic "school" of historiography. nobs 17:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I don't think this is the right way to go. We report on criticisms; when they are from distinguished figures like Geyl, they have to be given full weight. Simply mollifying the language in any case doesn't change the argument. I shall add something on the other side. But I have ample evidence that historians don't rate Toynbee. Charles Matthews 20:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That Toynbee was an historian there is no denial; however Toynbee didn't write for academia; Toynbee wrote for what we today call think tanks, and policymakers. nobs 20:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

To the extent that that has a certain plausibility (I would guess he wrote also for personal satisfaction, and as he married into my family I have some data on this, and that he also wrote for non-Europeans, in particular) that would be a reason to be tougher, no? Charles Matthews 20:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Recently someone propounded a theory to me that Tonybee must have had a research staff assisting him, and that some work may not be his own; this is entirely possible seeing it's difficult to imagine one person can amass such an indepth amount of detail. And being outside academia would give you the license. Though I don't know what relevence such speculation is (except perhaps professional jeolousy, seeing academic historians can't use other peoples work and put thier name on it, or maybe get paid what Toynbee was getting paid). I hope this speculation goes no farther, cause it still shouldn't detract from what Tonybee amassed. nobs 21:03, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It all sounds like transferring assumptions from today's hotshots back into the 1930s, where they may have little validity. I doubt he had uncredited help. Charles Matthews 21:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I dont mind the criticism of his work being brought up, but reading it this morning, it seemed to go a little too far. Comparing it to the Spengler and Huntington pages, it left the impression that Toynbee somehow far worse and utterly discredited as compared to either of them. I get concerned whenever I read anything about Toynbee because there is a group of people who hate him based on middle east politics out of all proper proportion. - anonymous

I agree with much of that. The business about "Toynbee Convectors" make him sound like a kook-cult leader, and seriously should be replaced with some substance of his work. User:Nobs01 198.133.178.17 21:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Could we all agree that at least 20% of the article should be about what Toynbee taught, professed or believed - especially in his book "A Study of History"? I don't mind if 80% then is rebuttals. Uncle Ed 05:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This introductory statement, " found little response in the discipline of comparative history that most occupied him.", is false. (And I attribute it to the professional jealousy stated above). True, A Study of History is huge. True, it occuppied him for at least 27 years (really closer to 40). However, I am looking right now at about 12 cu. ft. of the Survey of International Affairs that he edited during those same years. And he was probably more well known in those days as editor of that publication than as an historian. In conclusion (1) history didn't "occupy him most" (2) the current affairs of his day occuppied him regularly as anyone in the publishing business knows the pressure of meeting deadlines. Where he found time to research & write A Study of History I'll never understand. nobs 05:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there we hit a typical Wikipedia issue: the comparative history page is the tiniest of stubs. That means there is not much basis for talking about his effect on comparative history, either way. I think alluding to comparative history is useful, to place his work in context. Charles Matthews 07:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How about a rewrite of the first paragraph to be more generally about him and then moving the whole issue of "A study of history" after that. Right now, the placement is so up-front that creates a wrong impression. - anon

There is something to that. On other hand, hitting the reader with the main reason for someone's celebrity is correct 'news style'. Charles Matthews 22:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Toynbee's notoriety should include (a) longtime Director of the Royal Institute of International Affairs, and (b) longtime editor of its publication Survey of International Affairs; A Study of History is coincidental or a sidelight to those two roles he played. The above is especially important, given the time in question, i.e. from the failure of the League of Nations, World War II, the founding of the Alliance of World War II, the creation of the United Nations Organization, the Cold War, etc. It can be seen that much of Toynbee's writings is intimately involved in all these events. nobs 00:39, 29 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Above paragraph fixed to link to Royal Institute of International Affairs (RIAA) instead of Recording Industry Association of America. "Notoriety" is also misused as a synonym for "fame," but I am not going to fix that. My further effort should go into improving the article, not the talk page. 71.194.38.54 (talk) 07:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)Larry Siegel[reply]

Quotation

The inserted quotation by Anon user is extrememly close to the "meat" we have been discussing here. Toynbee said as much in Vols. IX & X of A Study of History. I would suggest an inclusion, perhaps somewhere introducing the quotation, that this is in keeping with his larger overall thesis of a "dominant minority" (i.e., his theory of mimesis), when he states in context,

" It seems to me likely to be imposed on the majority by a ruthless, efficient, and fanatical minority".

nobs 03:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please clean-up or add to this site. There is very little information on his theories. Even worse, the "critizism" section is empty of any substantance. I cannot tell what these critics believed was wrong with Toynbee's theories. Calling it "Philosophy of Mish Mash" does not explain what part of the theory is "mish mash" or where his arguments go wrong. Please flesh this section out. Thanks.

He's a Comparative Historian. It's a field that's currently out of favor with the academy for various reasons. Many criticisms have more to do with current academic politics and trends e.g. "Post-Colonialism" (which says criticizing other cultures is racist) and the work's ideas about Christianity for instance, than any actual problems with SoH, which about 5 people have read in its entirety (admittedly, I've only read the abridgement, myself). That's another problem though.

Some critiques which are concerned with the historical substance of SoH have to do with the specifics of delineating the civilizations which were included or excluded and ethnocentrism. Many of these delineations, admittedly, seem to be controversial and at times, arbitrary. The criteria used to operationalize civilizations is too restrictive, too (Spengler does a better job of actually comparing civilizations, but he's less of a historian and more of a scientist). The book, despite its undeniably high level of scholarship, has its share of warts and deserves a certain amount of critical appraisal, but unfortunately very few of the critiques I've seen are very meaningful. There are some challenge & response critiques, too. Guinness4life (talk) 16:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Academic History

I note that the article twice mentions that Toynbee was an academic at the University of London. Whilst there is some centralisation of certain resources (examinations, libraries etc) the UoL only really exists in an abstract sense; it is a composite of 30 or more institutes and colleges, the larger of which are basically universities in their own right (amongst which the LSE is prominent). I therefore don't understand how one can be a research professor at the 'University of London', and thus this passage seems a bit misleading (it's particularly tautological to talk about the LSE AND the UoL (although I'm not certain when the LSE joined the federation)). I suspect it would be better to explicitly state which college or institute he was a professor at- can anyone enlighten me? Badgerpatrol 22:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to [3], he started at King's College London. Charles Matthews 23:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's quick work! (Although the link seems to be broken...) Cheers, Badgerpatrol 23:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reading Habits

Does anyone know of Toynbee's reading habits?

Where has the bibliography gone??

Why on earth has the entire bibliography been taken off this inceasingly messy page??

About.com

Is About.com stealing this article's text, or is much of this article stolen from here [4]? GrubLord 14:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That article is certainly stolen from here. Charles Matthews 12:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Family tree

Peter Jenkins is married to Polly Toynbee, rather than being a sibling. Charles Matthews 12:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In popular culture

James Blish's famous "Cities in Flight" series of science fiction novels is organized around a whole elaborate quasi-Toynbeean scheme (a full-page chart correlating future historical events with Toynbeean stages is included in some editions of the books), and Toynbee is also mentioned several times in the text of the novels themselves... AnonMoos 18:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Missing piece of "trivia"

I am all for "trivia" - very much so, since it adds "flesh" to "bare bones". Which is why I cannot comprehend the reasons for the omission of T.'s "visions". (Anyone who knows enough about him to have written an encyclopaedic entry about him surely knows which "visions I am referring to.) It is a vital piece of "trivia" - certainly important to Toynbee himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.61.38.43 (talk) 03:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New College of Florida

The New College of Florida article claims that Toynbee came out of retirement to join the institution's faculty upon its foundation. Can anyone verify this? If this is true, it really ought to be added to this article. Harel Newman (talk) 20:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]