Talk:Royal Banner of Scotland

references

Why is an unreliable blog used as a reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.2.198 (talk) 01:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Usage Banned

• I was wondering why the article dosent mention about the usage of this flag being limited to royalty and certain dignitaries only.
  
  The article just casually mentions that the act of using the flag is illigal in sporting events, it does not however mention the reason behind it.
  
  Also if I'm not mistaken, now days they allow the general public to use the flag on certain specific days of national celebration.
  
  I'll add this to the article if there's no disagreements.
  
  --Pavithran 14:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It is illegal for the public to fly the Lion Rampant from a building. In 1934, the King issued a Royal Warrant saying the public should by allowed to wave the Lion Rampant by hand to show their loyalty to the crown. There's some debate as to whether this is truly legal, or if the King was acting illegally, not that anybody in Scotland other than a few pedants actually gives a hoot. Don't have time to find a reference for this, but it's out there. --Charlie Tango 22:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Standard or Armorial Banner

I think that this article is actually about an armorial banner. A Standard is a completely different vexillological item. Perhaps this article could be edited along the lines of the Royal Standard of Great Britain article, which makes clear that this usage of the word "standard" is strictly incorrect, though widely used.--Eva ^db 11:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The Lion Rampant when used by a Scottish Republican

I'm new to Wikipedia.

Hey, I made an edit to the article Royal Standard of Scotland, which is the article you get re-directed to when you search for "lion rampant".

Exactly I added this -

The Lion Rampant, as the Standard of Scotland, has also been called the "Scottish National Standard" in the context of its use by a Scottish republican when asserting a claim of right to use this traditional leadership flag of the Scots.

Stop spamming, Peter Dow

This, fellow Wikipedians, is a good example of a troll, he seems to be oblivious to the fact that NO ONE shares his extremist opinions, I have seen videos by this nasty piece of work on Youtube, in which he says he wants to commit terrorism and regicide- TashkentFox 15:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

External links

• Scottish National Standard Bearer: Peter Dow

But the change I made has been reverted back to the original and I'm none the wiser who did it or why.

Now if there is no agreement on even mentioning Scottish republicans who use the lion rampant or linking to such an external site, maybe I should write a new article, named "Lion Rampant"?

User talk:Peter Dow

Don't add links to your own website to Wikipedia, it is considered to be spam. The link is not considered to be important. Astrotrain 13:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Are the Lion Rampant and the Royal Standard of Scotland the same thing?

Are the Lion Rampant and the Royal Standard of Scotland the same thing?

The lion rampant is frequently mentioned as a component of coats of arms, yet this refers to the red, guling(?), lion as also seen on the Royal Standard of Scotland, not the standard itself. For an example of this see Clan MacDuff.

I am curious about the origins of the Lion Rampant. How did a red Lion come to represent Scotland? In medieval times, how did the Scots even know about Lions? I think this is a subject separate from the Royal Standard of Scotland. --Fergie 10:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Lions would be known- Romans fed the Christains to lions remember. Astrotrain 10:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There are no end of lions on Pictish stones. David killing the lion or Daniel in the lions den were popular religious themes, the one for kings, the other for saints. Most likely they were copied from imported materials from the Eastern Med or beyond. One image is thought to have been copied from silverware made in Afghanistan. Angus McLellan (Talk) 10:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

But why the 'Lion Rampant'? Where did this style of heraldic lion first originate?--Fergie 11:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

William I is the man who picked it, and he wasn't very original. It's a very, very common symbol. Flanders (black lion, gold field), Brabant (gold lion, black field), Limburg (red lion, white field), Zeeland (red lion, gold field), the Netherlands (gold lion, blue field), Halland (white lion, blue field), Västergötland (gold and black lion on a black and gold field) and Smaland (red line, gold field) are just some of the places with rampant-ish lions on their arms or flags. No doubt someone will claim to have been first. I imagine William copied someone else's arms, changing the colours, rather than being inspired by the sight of a lion. Or maybe he did see one: James V kept one at Stirling Castle, so you never know. Better yet, Edgar sent a camel, or maybe an elephant, as a gift to the High King of Ireland in 1105: "In the above year a camel, an animal of remarkable size, was brought from the king of Alba to Muirchertach Ua Briain." It doesn't do to imagine that Scotland was at the end of the world [well, it was, but it wasn't the back of beyond if you see what I mean] in times past. Angus McLellan (Talk) 11:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Other examples: Royal Arms of Norway (very similar to the Scottish arms, but reversed colours) and the arms of Gothenburg (the city was founded by Scots, Dutch and Germans). (Pedantic note: its Småland, with an "å"). --Mais oui! 11:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

In answer to the original question, they are not the same thing as the lion rampant is used in more than just the royal banner of scotland, Its a heraldic term and can only really be specific with colours (for the field at least) applied. It just means a lion stood up and facing forwards. To my mind it shouldn't redirect here and should be a disambiguation page. I was sent here by a link regarding the use of the lion rampant by Peugeot which I'm told has nothing to do with the royal banner of scotland. that or it should redirect to Lion (Heraldry).(Morcus (talk) 20:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC))

the upper parties per fess

I changed this caption:

The Royal Standard of Canada, featuring the Royal Standard of Scotland in the second quadrant of the upper parties per fess.

I replaced quadrant with the heraldic (and common) term quarter, and removed the last few words. The coat of arms of Canada is quarterly with a base added, not per fess; even if it were per fess (half-and-half), such technical language is unnecessary here; and parties is just weird. —Tamfang (talk) 15:44, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree to an extent; the description was taken from a reliable source, but I didn't recognise the need to avoid such the "technical" aspects. I've added a bit to the sentence on the basis of this description from The Coat of Arms of Canada - A Short History:

*Arms: Tierced in fess: the first two divisions containing the quarterly coat following, namely, 1st Gules three lions passant guardant in pale or, 2nd, Or a lion rampant within a double tressure flory-counter-flory Gules, 3rd, Azure a harp or stringed Argent, 4th, Azure, three fleurs-de-lis Or, and the third division Argent three maple leaves conjoined on one stem proper.

The thumb description should now be sufficient in terms of a non-technical description, without the loss of any degree of accuracy. Endrick Shellycoat 16:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Royal Standard of Scotland/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Starting review. Pyrotec (talk) 20:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Initial comments

After several quick read-throughs, the article appears to be at or about GA-level. I'll therefore carry out a more detailed review secion by section against WP:WIAGA, but leaving the WP:Lead until last. Pyrotec (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• Design -

• Appears to be compliant.

• History -

• Ref 11 appears to be a book: the page number, or numbers, should be provided. Done
• Otherwise, appears to be compliant.

• Protocol -
  • Use at Royal residences -

• Appears to be compliant.

• • Use by Royal representatives -

• Appears to be compliant.

• • Legal status -

• The final sentence in the first paragraph, i.e. "Despite such action, the flag continues to feature on a variety of merchandise and souvenirs produced commercially for Scotland's economically important tourism industry.", is unreferenced and thus appears to be a Point of View. Done
• The final sentence in the second paragraph, i.e. "Today the flag continues to be used unofficially as a second national flag of Scotland, particularly at sporting events.", is unreferenced and thus appears to be a Point of View. Done
• Otherwise, appears to be compliant.

• Appearance in other Royal Standards -

....to be continued. Pyrotec (talk) 20:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Appears to be compliant.

• National Flag of Scotland -

• Appears to be compliant.

• Further comment - "Broadness" -

• Whilst it is not mentioned in this article, the Caledonian Railway obviously "pinched" the Royal Standard in the early 19th century and apparently got away with it. A reproduction appears [here]. There is (obviously) a way of describing their Coat of Arms which I'm not going to attempt: the flag firstly appears distorted to fit a shield supported by Unicorn rampants, which are holding aloft modified versions of both the National Flag of Scotland and Royal Standard of Scotland, etc, etc.
• I think this aught to go into the article; but it does not fit "easily" into any of your existing sections, well possibly it could fit into Legal status. I should be able to find a reference of the "pinching", I half-remember it was put more politely - possibly "brazenly copied". I will try and find that citation tonight.

Whilst I agree that you have an important and noteworthy point with regard to the Caledonian Railway, I feel that although a reference to the company's use of the pre-1603 Royal Arms should be made, it should not however be in this article. This article concerns the Banner of Arms of the Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland; the article concerning the Arms themselves possibly being a more appropriate place for the Caledonian Railway to be mentioned. It would be a great addition to that article if you can indeed track down a reference. Did they also use the Banner of the Arms in any way, do you know? Endrick Shellycoat 20:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC) PS Thanks for all your work re. WP:GA assessment.

Yes, as you have brought my attention to the Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland, I agree that it is more appropriate than this article. No they did not apear to use the Banner of the Arms, just a modified version of the Royal Coat of Arms of Scotland; but I was not aware of the latter. Thanks, I've learnt something that I did not know before. Pyrotec (talk) 21:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

• WP:Lead -

• Appears to be compliant.

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

An interesting, well-illustrated and well-referenced article on a specialist subject.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Congratulations on the quality of the article, I'm awarding GA-status. Pyrotec (talk) 21:38, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Flag propotions

If proportions for the Standard listed in the infobox is correct the Standard should look different with height bigger than the width. Can somebody clarify whether Standard should be changed according to proportions or vice a versa? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorbins (talk • contribs) 07:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I could find no other reference to the flag ratio/proportions other than the house flag example at the Lyon website linked to in the article. Britannica online shows an almost square example, but again no mention is made of a ratio. Also, the Standard of the Duke of Rothesay in the Chapel of the Order of the Thistle in St. Giles' Kirk looks as though it is of a ratio which differs from the other examples which accompany it. Don't quite know if the 1:2 ratio usually seen is merely down to convenience on the part of flag manufacturers, but if someone else can find another reference please include it, or anyone with a creative knack for .svg design please add a 5:4 "house flag" example. Endrick Shellycoat 22:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC) PS This is probably not 'proper', but the flag manufacturer By Appointment to Her Majesty The Queen, who you think would know about such things, shows the 1:2 and 2:3 ratio on their website: Flyingcolours. (On closer inspection, this is meaningless as they show the same for the Swiss flag, which everyone knows is square!!!).

May be proportions simply not fixed as with Saltire. Nothing really says anything about proportions and on that picture they rather look 4:5 than 5:4