Talk:Schizophrenia

Addtion suggestion

I suggest adding the following to the alternative methods section just to indicate that there exist essentially different interpretations of the subject that are not based on a medical model:

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Jungian psychiatrist John Weir Perry argued that psychosis, more specifically schozphrenia was not an "illness" but a reconstitutive process of the psyche in deep crisis, and there is no nead for medication or specific treatment. In his view, if this process can develop and unfold in a supportive, understanding environment, the patient returns "weller than well" - that is, the person does not simply returns to his old self but emerges as more integrated, "healthier". He put his ideas to test in the center Diabasis where he accepted young "full blown" schizophrenics. He claimed that his patients revovered spontaneously after about three months.). In his theoretical work Perry introduced the idea that there is meaning in the seemingly chaotic, senseless content of the psyche in psychosis. He found parallels between mythical stories and psychotic content, and argued that while mythology serves to keep and renew mental balance in a social level, psychosis has the same purpose for the individual. Even though he claimed to find an effective, brief, inexpensive way of treatment that helps patients leave schizophrenia behind (as opposed to lifetime medication), his work remains largely unnoticed or ignored.

1. The far side of madness. Englewood Cliffs, N.J., Prentice-Hall, 1974.

2. Roots of renewal in myth and madness. San Francisco, Jossey-Bass Publishers, 1976.

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I also suggest adding http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyn_Saks within the list of people with schizophrenia who make cultural contributions. she is due to give a keynote speech at the second biannual schizophrenia international research conference. http://www.schizophreniaconference.org/page4.html 92.233.236.143 (talk) 01:11, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure I use refs correctly. --LonesomeCowboyBurt (talk) 13:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

If anything, this article is much too long, and should be aggressively trimmed, routing out primary sources and using review sources only in the process. I don't support the proposed addition. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree, but since there are good sources, there is no reason why LonesomeCowboyBurt couldn't create a John Weir Perry article to cover this material. Looie496 (talk) 18:18, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

(1) what is this disease? as a mother, i've found that we need basic information on: what is psychosis versus what is a mental disorder DSM/ICD. Because of the long period of DUP duration of undiagnosed psychosis of 4-7 years, we turn to wiki in the middle of the night to clarify terminology. Yes, some can be viewed as a spectrum but WiKi is best at outlining the major categories. (2) is it genetic? i strongly suggest adding the july Nature results from huge studies; the bottom line seems to be a small contribution from a large number of genes. (3) please add a solid explanation of negative symptoms because these appear before positive symptoms. Negative symptom means an observable pattern of withdrawal, alienation, ahedonia, fear. (4)cannabis - when used at an early age and/or when used weekly does triple the risk of full SZ. yes it can be used as self-medicating later on; but this risk is well proven. as one factor, this article should distinguish: predisposition of susceptible people vs behaviours of choice in adults. (5)one source very helpful is :SCHIZOPHRENIA RESEARCH FORUM - The mission of the SRF is to help in the search for causes, treatments, and understanding of the devastating disease of schizophrenia. Our goal is to foster collaboration among researchers by providing an international online forum where ideas, research news, and data can be presented and discussed. The website is intended to bring together scientists working specifically on schizophrenia, scientists researching related diseases, and basic scientists whose work can shed light on these diseases. In this way, we hope that the Schizophrenia Research Forum will be a catalyst for creative thinking in the quest to understand a deeply complex disease. It is our goal to create and maintain up-to-date content of the highest quality. The website is free of charge to users, independent of industry sponsorship, and open to the public. Though geared toward researchers, we welcome other visitors—people with mental illnesses, families, the media, and others who need accurate information on research into schizophrenia. We do, however, require that users who wish to post comments and other materials be registered members. All such materials are subject to approval by the editorial team. As a "forum," we encourage participation and welcome feedback from the community. thank you Iris 99.234.95.84 (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

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I just added a description of the metacognitive training in the psychological and social intervention section and so I would suggest to update the schizophrenia article in this manner, too. See Treatment of schizophrenia to look at what I wrote there! Thanks! --Neuschrank (talk) 17:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Cannabis research reference

I would just like to add another refrence backing up the claim that Cannabis use and Schizophrenia occurence is just a mere coping factor.

There is a sentence in drug abuse section that states "There is little evidence to suggest that other drugs including alcohol cause schizophrenia, or that psychotic individuals choose specific drugs to self-medicate; there is some support for the hypothesis that they use drugs to cope with unpleasant states such as depression, anxiety, boredom and loneliness.[70]"

I would also like to back this up with another additional reference. Here it is: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15298320?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1

I also believe that the words "other drugs including alcohol" in this sentence should be replaced with "other drugs including cannabis" seeing as how the previous sentence had it's subject revolving around cannabis as well. Alcohol would fit into the "other drugs" category, but the main point of the sentence should clearly explain that it is the cannabis that this study is controversial about - not the alcohol.

Thanks guys.

MidnightToker666 (talk) 05:05, 18 November 2009 (UTC) MidnightToker666

I've since deleted this bit on my sandbox page on social construction of schizophrenia , but feel it is relevant to this part of the debate :

[Professor Nutt views links between cannabis and schizophrenia difficult to unentangle, in a UK populous study, :

"The other paradox is that schizophrenia seems to be disappearing (from the general population), even though cannabis use has increased markedly in the last 30 years. So, even though skunk has been around now for 10 years, there has been no upswing in schizophrenia. In fact, where people have looked, they haven't found any evidence linking cannabis use in a population and schizophrenia."

Dutch research says there is no connection between cannabis useage and schizophrenia . The drug based hypothesis for onset of schizophrenia is therefore partially nullified : "The scientists say the drug only seems to affect people who are genetically predisposed to getting schizophrenia (meaning they will get it anyway). As schizophrenia manifests itself during adolescence, and many people start taking cannabis during adolescence - it is just coincidence that some people develop the mental illness soon after they start taking the drug."]

My thoughts on professor nutts comments which are indeed contradictory if you read the full guardian article as he suggests smoking weed increases the chance of getting schizophrenia 2.8 times are something akin to that , are A/ that schizophrenia isn't dissapearing from the general population , rather it is being used less as a diagnostic label by uk psychiatrists. I know of several people who are diagnosed bi-polar but have had schizophrenic symptoms. B/ That schizophrenia exists as a hereditary genetic condition and taking perception altering drugs may trigger the switches in the genes responsible for schizophrenia perhaps on a temporary basis. Darwinerasmus (talk) 13:23, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Alternative perception spectrum

Not sure if this is the best place to do it, but I'd like to give a pointer to this new article for any who might be interested (I have nothing to do with it). Looie496 (talk) 00:19, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that it should probably be deleted and I might nominate it for deletion. Much of it is poorly sourced. Does an article not already exist where this topic is already discussed, eg stigmatising effects of mental health labels or of schizophrenia?--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 09:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I nominated it for deletion because there are no sources even unreliable sources which actually mention this alternative label for schizophrenia. It is original research IMHO.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 09:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I have been discussing this with literature geek on the alternative perception spectrum discussion page and have since began to rewrite the article as the social construction of schizophrenia in my sandbox which i have also copied to alternative perception spectrum - i think that stands barely as alternative perception already redirects to schizophrenia and thus is another name for schizophrenia spectrum but agree that it would be better to archive/delete alternative perception spectrum and concentrate on developing a social construction of schizophrenia page as there is a fair amount of research in that area . i am looking to get a hold of an athens password from a colleague at Northumbria University so i can access the full source materials of some of the current research around narrative and myths in schizophrenia to develop it further . I invite comments in my sandbox discussion page here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Darwinerasmus/social_construction_of_schizophrenia Darwinerasmus (talk) 11:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I still am not entirely sure social construct is the best name, because some of the people who want a different name for schizophrenia would reject the social construct theory, which is a minority opinion. From my limited knowledge on this subject there seems to be people who want a different name for similar reasons that manic depressive was changed to bipolar. I would have thought that criticisms of schizophrenia would have been better article name to cover a diverse range of aspects of schizophrenia. Then some of the content of the main schizophrenia article can be merged into it if it ever needs another pruning session (this article is currently quite big). Any article will need to be well sourced and I encourage you to read WP:MEDRS. If it promotes minority opinions using weak sources and nothing much else you run the risk of the article being deleted. If you created an article with the name I suggested you could do pubmed searches and find a variety of good quality sources discussing various criticisms and controversies. I do worry that this will become a WP:POVFORK and I hope that you will cover other aspects of criticisms and viewpoints and not just about the name schizophrenia and social construct.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 03:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Moore THM, Zammit S, Lingford-Hughes A, Barnes TRE, Jones PB, Burke M, Lewis G. “Cannabis use and risk of psychotic or affective mental health outcomes: A systematic review.” The Lancet. 2007 July 28; 370:319-328.

The Lancet reviewers consulted with experts to identify population-based longitudinal studies, as well as case-control studies.   
The reviewers zeroed in on the studies of developing a psychotic disorder based on research in Sweden,  New Zealand, and a Dutch study combined data from the three studies showed an increased likelihood of psychotic disorders in individuals who had ever used cannabis (adjusted odds ratio 1.08-6.13).  They determined people who used marijuana had roughly a 40% higher chance of developing a psychotic disorder later in life.

Whether cannabis causes persistent psychotic symptoms was reviewed with 35 studies (longitudinal & population based). There is an increased risk of any psychotic outcome in individuals who had ever used cannabis. Findings were consistent with a dose-response effect, with greater risk in people, who used cannabis most frequently.

The overall risk remains very low. Zammit said the risk of developing schizophrenia for most people is less than 1%. The prevalence of schizophrenia is believed to be about five in 1,000 people. Because of the drug's wide popularity, the researchers estimate that about 800 new cases of psychosis could be prevented by reducing marijuana use. Moore pooled results, finding an increased risk of psychotic outcomes in people who had ever used cannabis, controlling for confounding factors the schizophrenia risk has an adjusted odds ratio 1.20-1.65: 1.0.

The scientists found a more disturbing outlook for "heavy users" of pot, those who used it daily or weekly as their risk for psychosis jumped to 200%.

An analysis of six studies that assessed frequent use, found that individuals who often used cannabis were about twice as likely (adjusted odds ratio lies between 1.54 - 2.84: 1.0). There is now sufficient evidence to warn young people that using cannabis could increase their risk of developing a psychotic illness later in life.

Nordentoft M, Hjorthøj C. “Cannabis use and risk of psychosis in later life. Meta-analysis Supports Case for Cannabis in Etiology of Psychosis” The Lancet. 2007 July 28; 370: p 293-294. M. Nordentoft and C. Hjorthøj of Copenhagen Hospital write, “The assessment of adjustment for confounding factors and transitory effects of cannabis intoxication is done more thoroughly than in previous reviews.”

A prior meta-analysis, led by Cécile Henquet of Maastricht Univ, Netherlands (Henquet et al., 2005), estimated that previous cannabis use doubles the risk of developing psychosis, independently of possible confounding factors. Zammit and colleagues ruled out alternative explanations. In addition, they looked at affective as well as psychotic outcomes.

The new meta-analysis by S. Zammit and T.H. Moore, Cardiff University, addresses methodological issues and causal links between psychosis and cannabis which affects dopaminergic, GABAergic, and glutamatergic neurons.

Dr. Wilson Compton, at the National Institute on Drug Abuse in Washington, called the study persuasive. There are consistencies across all of the studies with psychoses — but not in 7 studies of anxiety, and 15 studies of depression. Scientists cannot rule out that pre-existing conditions could have led to both marijuana use and later psychoses, he added. People with mental illness in their families could be at higher risk. For them, marijuana use "could unmask the underlying schizophrenia," said Dr. D.C. D'Souza, at Yale University.

Scientists think it is possible that marijuana causes psychoses by interrupting important neurotransmitters such as dopamine and other brain communication systems. Researchers have raised the possibility that cannabis use by young people, whose brains are still developing, may be particularly likely to increase psychosis risk. According to Moore “Arguments for why earlier use of cannabis might have more harmful effects are intuitively compelling, but no robust evidence supports this view.”

Age at first-use from the Dunedin evidence suggests it could be through effects of the catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene, in those who started 99.234.95.84 (talk) 00:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

FAR overdue

This article has been listed at Wikipedia:Featured articles/Cleanup listing for much too long, without issues being addressed; I'll wait one more week before taking it to FAR. There are still citation cleanup needs, and the Treatment section could benefit from better use of summary style. A serious review of use of primary sources, per WP:MEDRS (leading to undue weight) is needed. And this edit rightfully cut text to a daughter article, but left this article without a Summary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:29, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I would have put in summary text in for the History of Schizophrenia but there wasnt any obvious text to use.--Penbat (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally it would be nice if somebody beefed up Paranoid schizophrenia--Penbat (talk) 21:32, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I have cherry picked salient/core points for potted summary of History section - a new subarticle means that subarticle can now grow alot (very feasible)) Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:11, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I can see a few links/sources which need updating now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:25, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

PS: this and/or this being two places to start to get the latest epidemiology. I need a bit of time to get and digest the fulltextsCasliber (talk · contribs) 04:46, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it's time to take it to FAR. I hope it will be de-featured, so it can be edited more freely withtout users moaning about changes to a FA.--Sum (talk) 17:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

In what way do you feel it fails to meet criteria then? Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:35, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Probably a Typo

In Signs and Symptoms,under Positive and Negative symptoms, it says: "Negative symptoms are symptoms that are not present in schizophrenic persons but are normally found in healthy persons.| If negative symptoms are NOT present in schizophrenic persons, why do we consider them as symptoms of schizophrenia? Don't you think we should remove the "not"?

It's not a typo, just very awkwardly written. If you remove the "not", it will be a description of positive symptoms, not negative symptoms. I'll try to make it easier to understand; thanks for pointing it out. Looie496 (talk) 17:47, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Source: Elliot Valenstein and Robert Whitaker

"Increased dopamine activity in the mesolimbic pathway of the brain is consistently found in schizophrenic individuals. The mainstay of treatment is antipsychotic medication; this type of drug primarily works by suppressing dopamine activity. "

According to one accredited neuroscientist and a award winning medical journalist this was established by studying the drugs and not the brain with the belief that the drugs worked based on the observed behavior of the individual. They cite studies that show that drugs like PCP that increase dopamine do not resemble the psychosis seen in Schizophrenics and that autopsy studies of Schizophrenic people show inconsistencies in this matter. They both also cite numerous studies from the National Institute Of Mental Health and The American Psychiatric Association itself that decreasing dopamine in the brain creates a "therapeutic parkinsons" and a "chemical straight jacket". I know I'm probably not the ten thousandth person to bring this up and have something reverted and I know many bots are set on this page but these peoples credibility amongst scientists who have no ties to drug companies is impeccable so I think that some bits of their work should be cited here on this wikipedia page. 24.236.234.23 (talk) 13:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

What you are saying is quite correct, I think, but it doesn't actually contradict the sentences you quoted. The sentences might be misleading to some readers, but they are factually correct. Increased dopamine activity is indeed found in schizophrenia, although it may not be the cause of the disease; dopamine antagonists are the mainstay of treatment, although they are clearly far from perfect. Regards, Looie496 (talk) 16:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

omega-3 treatment/cure for schizophrenia and weblinks

I've been following the omega-3 research for about 9 years (as well as taking 5grams of omega-3 fish oil for much of this time), and recently an interesting report came out about omega-3's link to schizophrenia. I am pasting some of the web-links here.

Fish oil pills show promise in preventing schizophrenia

Fish oil may prevent onset of mental illness: Study

Omega-3 Fish Oils Tested as Preventative Approach to Schizophrenia, with Positive Results

Fish oil hope for schizophrenia patients

Low omega-3 linked to schizophrenia risk

Essential Fats Found Deficient in Brains of Men with Schizophrenia

Several years ago I also read research about how taking 5grams of omega-3 fish oil a day helped prevent relapse in manic-depressive disorder.

I think the time for skepticism of the massive benefits of omega-3 is long past, compared to the alternative of taking pharmaceutical drugs to mask illnesses it is really a no-brainer to take a natural oil that can CURE many diseases. This encyclopedia should step past the pro-pharmaceutical media bias and unflinchingly publish the honest truth about omega-3. Many people are needlessly suffering at the mercy of the pharmaceutical/psychiatric establishment who have largely ignored omega-3 as there is no money in finding a natural treatment or cure for diseases. There are many skeptics of game-changing science, but omega-3 truly is a game changer. It is likely that for many psychiatric patients omega-3 could replace psychiatric medication for treatment, with better outcomes and no side-effects. Please if you are interested in natural cures for disease do your research and you will see that they are out there.

cheers, Jamie 24.108.77.192 (talk) 12:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)