User talk:Frank

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Hi Frank, thanks for deleting that, there is also another copy, here please have a look at the note I left at AN here . Off2riorob (talk) 14:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Responded at AN.  Frank  |  talk  14:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Can you tell me why it was removed to my user page, and then someone still delete it before I can do anything ? I haven't even got a chance to say hold it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronald2010 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I understand your reason for deleting Silviu Ionescu was because of BLP. Can you explain to me how is the BLP poicy apply on this [[1]] ? 121.7.53.23 (talk) 09:01, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand the question. WP:BLP establishes how we treat the biographical articles of living people; the idea is that Wikipedia is not here to defame anyone. If they are notable for something then we can include them here. If you can establish that Ionescu is actually notable, and write a balanced article about him, then there's no reason the article can't exist. But the one that had been previously written was not balanced, and I'm not sure he's notable to start with.  Frank  |  talk  11:51, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Michael Fay is a living person. He was sentenced to caning for the crime he committed in Singapore. Is he notable ? Well, he is definitely not a hero, nor a millionaire. He is just a foreigner committed a crime in Singapore and was punished. The news then had created a big wave in Singapore and in USA. He is therefore notable in that sense. From this point of view, Silviu Ionescu is similar. He is a foreigner, a Romanian, committed (more) crime (than Michael Fay) in Singapore. It is found in an open Coroner's Inquiry that he is responsible for the accidents. Lots of news report and online discussion about him in Singapore and Romania.

Mind you, this is not DEFRAME nor ATTACK (which I really disagree with yours and the others' earlier comments that my deleted write up on Silviu Ionescu was to deframe him). I am deframing him if the Court has not ruled. That means, I do not solid evidence to say he committed the crimes, and he can sue me. But, this case, the Court has ruled. It is a PROVEN CASE now. Not an opinion, not a speculation. If you noted, I wrote the article for Wikipedia AFTER the Court has given the verdict (although I started developing the draft copy in my user space nearing the date of Court's verdict). This is the care that I taken to ensure that the facts are written, (and to reply to the other person who said my article was a copy of the news, yes it is because it is based on the same facts as reported, so that is why, and I quoted the sources too) some kind of fair treatment for him. I'll let you know that there are many members of the Facebook group will support me is saying this and I am inviting them to watch this discussion now.

Did the current Wikipedia write up on Michael Fay show his other good ? or just mainly talk about what he did in Singapore ? Nope. Michael Fay maybe a celebrity by now, and maybe a founder of a very successful IT company now, or a CEO or a Fortune 500 company now. But the Wikipedia article currently shows his crime committed in Singapore. That is going to be the same for Silviu Ionescu. He maybe a member of the secret police in his country, killing more people than we can ever imagine. But his two reckless accident in Singapore kill one, injured two. That is enough to make him 'infamous'.

I hope I have elaborated enough to justify the article, by citing a current article of Micheal Fay, which is also one single incident. So my question to you is, how is the BLP policy applied here ? Thank you.

121.7.53.23 (talk) 02:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I support you, Ronald (or are you Jackie ?). 203.78.9.150 (talk) 05:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you ! And Daniel (116.14.58.58 8 Apr 3:52 UTC) also. Yes, Ronald2010 is also Jackie. 121.7.15.234 (talk) 08:10, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Frank, please do reply on the above mentioned with full answer. Thanks & best regards, from Daniel on 08-April-2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.14.58.58 (talk) 03:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not saying this article cannot exist - merely that, as it was written, it cannot remain. If you disagree, you are free to go to WP:DRV, or perhaps to recreate it in your user space (you'll have to log in to do that). There's no automatic reason an article on the man couldn't exist; it would take effort to make it comply with policies, but all articles must do so.

The article that was deleted was a very detailed re-telling of the accusations and court findings against an individual; the Michael P. Fay article, while nowhere near a shining example of Wikipedia's best work, at least makes a serious effort at writing about his life as a whole and at describing why the idea of a foreigner being caned is notable. A hit-and-run drunken driving conviction seems far less notable, even when it involves a foreign diplomat. (Still, the existence of another article is rarely a sufficient (or even good) reason to defend the non-deletion of an article; see WP:OSE.)  Frank  |  talk  08:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Frank, Silviu Ionescu's case a most recent example of abuse of [| diplomatic immunity]. I assure you that it is notable. It is not less serious than Michael Fay's case. I hope you also see what was written by another user Zhanzhao in [| Why is the case not Notable ? ]. It is just that I do not have the CV of Silviu Ionescu. If you look at the history of editing for the deleted article, you'd find that after I wrote, I go and find out his wife's name and put it in, try to make it a complete record of him. If you'd convince the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Romania to give me his Personal File, I'd extract his career hisotry before the accident and put it up. BUT THEN - why is his other parts of his working life NOTABLE ? As a diplomat, did he make big contribution to Romania ? I don't think so, before he became drunk and run down 3 person, I don't think what he did is NOTABLE at all. So what it is now ? Is Wikipedia asking me to 'make his life story complete' just to satisfy one policy, but disregarding another policy ?

Since you have deleted my original article, can you restore it and put up for Deletion Review ? [add by me- What I meant is all these discussion here, and on JzG's talk page, maybe should be moved to Deletion Review as part of the discussion ? I am not an admin here so I am not sure if this should be done. Your call.] However, if you tell me the deletion is non-recoverable, then I will use my back up copy to re-create [add by me - because I don't want to be accused of putting up the same deleted page whereby I would be banned]. Ronald2010 (talk) 12:24, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I support you Jackie !! You are doing the right thing. It's the truth and you have all the facts all correct. You are not doing it to spread bad news or give somebody a bad name. It's to create awareness to all people in the world about the stupidity and the ignorance of people who are honored with diplomatic immunity and abused it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.12.238 (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

(PS: I am copying this from another talk page as its a similar arguement I am making)

Hi Frank,

Just to question the level of notability of the case: How exactly would you quantify notability?

I.e. I look at another article I used to touch on [Meredith Kercher]. Both are notable for only one single specific incident (A hit-and-run vs a murder), and both involved a few countries (The hit and run involved a Romanian who hit a Malaysian working in Singapore, the murder case similarly crossed international boundaries due to the nationalities of the victim and prosecuted).

Do a search on "Silviu Ionescu" compared to "Meredith Kercher" on Google (web) and Google (news), a comparison of both searches show more results and entries for "Silviu Ionescu" than "Meredith Kercher". It might not have triggeredas much eyeball in the States, but the European and Asian news agencies are covering this quite aggressively.

The fact that in the case of Ionescu, it actually triggered diplomatic responses and action from the countries involved is possibly a contributing factor., but that should not take anything away from it.

So back to the test for Notability:

From the Google news result, the test for significant coverage is passed.

Again from the Google news results (which quotes multiple news sources), and also official responses from both foreign offices, the test reliability is passed. Ditto for the test for sources.

It is inevitable that the article will veer close to BLP issues, considering that the article is after all about a person who rose to notoriety because of the hit-and-run. The best we can do is craft an article that as reliable and well documented as possible, creating an article based on info as is, without biased writing. I do hope the article goes up soon (Or at least a skeleton of it so that other editors can help tidy it up. The case could have indirect repercussions that would eventually tie in with other articles, and not just from the Diplomatic Immunity angle (I.e. there is talk that during the coming General Elections in Singapore, this issue could be used as a weapon by the opposition parties to question the effectiveness of the existing government who allegedly over-protect Ionescu and let him leave the country before the investigation was over, on top of other foreign affairs issues); so it is inevitable that the incident is definitely going to resurface in one form/article or another. Zhanzhao (talk) 23:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Zhanzhao (talk) 23:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Actually, on the point of deciding what is notable, I have my view after this episode. I think an admin not in the same geographical area would not be qualify to decide what is notable or not. In this case, only Singaporean can tell you Silviu Ionescu is now notable because of what he just did. Singaporean can also tell you that Micahel Fay is notable. When Zhanzhao give the example of Meredith Kercher above, I only get to know it now, although it is a widely covered event in UK and Italy. So, I hope the regular Wikipedia administrators take note of this. If cannot decide based on your own knowlege. The world is too big. And Singapore is not part of China...if anyone still don't know. 121.7.15.234 (talk) 03:52, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Your Decision ?

Frank,

Today, Singapore MFA met with the Romanian Ambassador. Singapore authorities issued a Warrant of Arrest for Silviu Ionescu. At the same time interpol issued a [[ http://www.interpol.int/Public/Wanted/Default.asp%7C Red ]] [| Notice ] for him as well.

I believe I have presented my case to you that this is not an attack, and there is sufficient international interest in this matter, and therefore notability. If you are satisfied with all these explanation, please restore the page.

Before listing a review request, please attempt to discuss the matter with the admin who deleted the page (or otherwise made the decision) as this could resolve the matter faster. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the admin the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, please note in the DRV listing that you first tried discussing the matter with the admin who deleted the page.

Otherwise, I would appreciate that you let me know that things still don't work out with you, so that I can proceed with DRV.

Ronald2010 (talk) 10:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Ronald - really the best thing to do is to create a more balanced, unbiased version in your userspace and allow others to review it. I really can't restore the version that was deleted because it was an attack page regardless of whether the man is now wanted by Interpol. But again - as I've said all along - it's not that there can't be an article on the man, only that the article as it was written doesn't belong. I'm not saying I think he's notable according to our policies - that's a different issue - but the article as it was deleted was inappropriate. If you create a more balanced, less inflammatory article in your user space, that will be a good first step.

Also, I understand and appreciate that you're following the procedures listed at DRV by contacting me first. That's the right way to go according to community consensus. I want you to realize, though, that whether or not the article should exist is not up to me or to any one person...and again, I'm not saying it shouldn't exist; only that it doesn't meet policy as it was written. If you are seeking permission and action from me to restore it, you may wind up with the mistaken impression that I'm saying "the article is OK". That wouldn't be true in this case.

So, really the best way to proceed is not DRV (at which I am fairly confident but not 100% sure the deletion would be upheld), but simply to create a toned-down version that is more balanced and unbaised. DRV discussions usually take a week and if it turned out that the deletion was upheld, you'd be no closer to having an article. If you create a new version and solicit others to help, you'll have a better chance of getting an article written. Also, if others give an opinion as to whether or not it belongs, rather than you relying on and possibly trying to change the opinion of one or two admins, you'll develop a better sense of how the community works. Ultimately, that is better for you and the project, because I am really just one person around here.

I would also suggest consulting WP:FIRST, WP:AFC, and WP:INCUBATE. These will be helpful in gauging community consensus and procedure.  Frank  |  talk  12:16, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Fine (I can see that you still view it as an attack, and not fully convinced that by the two hit-and-run accident he became infamously notable), and I respect your suggestion (to try to make it more blanaced, although I really don't know how, but no harm give it a try) so, may I request that an admin restore that article to my user space ? Because any attempt by me to recreate a previously deleted article may get me banned. You know, Singaporean very kiasu and kiasi, always follow the rule. Thank you ! Ronald2010 (talk) 13:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I still think it's better to start from scratch. I believe that you have all the text and references available to you since you created the article multiple times. Also, if you start at WP:AFC or WP:INCUBATE, you can get some perspective from other people. And, as a middle ground, perhaps I could restore all the references you collected, and allow you to build from those references. That way the attack article will not be visible in history, which is what I'm trying to avoid.  Frank  |  talk  13:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

It still looks like WP:BLP1E to me. Righteous anger is a terrible reason for starting an article. Incidentally: Warning: The person should be considered innocent until proven guilty. Guy (Help!) 15:46, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

On, that, the case has already gone through a polices investigation and a separate coroner's inquiry (this is not an autopsy, its a special session which called up 54 witnesses including the diplomat's driver (whom Romania waived diplomatic immunity to allow him to testify) and the carmaker representatives (since Ionescu claimed the car was stolen, implying that the alleged thief had bypassed the car's installed anti-theft devices) at the country of the accident, the result of which has him found guilty, and following that a Interpol Red Alert has been issued for his arrest[2]. Ionescu was requested to attend the coroner's inquiry to defend himself, but he ignored it. The only investigation that hasn't concluded is a separate investigation on the Romanian government's part, since a quirk of Diplomatic immunity[3] allows Ionescu only to be tried at his home country. Note that the Romanian investigators will only have the evidence given by the Singapore investigators to work with anyway [4]. Also Note that there is more to this that just a simple hit-and-run, and that Ionescu also claimed that he is being set-up b y the Singapore and Romanian Government[5].....though that would make his choice of fleaing to Romania strange indeed.

Even if this article WAS started by righteous anger, fellow wikipedians should be given a chance to turn it into something informative and in the spirit of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zhanzhao (talk • contribs) 00:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Some valid points; I still say that WP:FIRST, WP:AFC, and WP:INCUBATE are key.  Frank  |  talk  00:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think any one will have issues with that (rgd WP:FIRST, WP:AFC, and WP:INCUBATE) . But do restore the references as you offered beforehand; I can imagine that its a chore to collect the different references, and in that sense Ronald2010 has been better than some editors I have seen in the past who have created or edited huge amounts of content without referencing/sourcing. The references/sources he chose may inherently be strong in their language, which influenced the tone of his own attempt at the article, so at least other editors can suggest more neutral sources. This is just a guess, as I have not seen either the deleted article nor the reference he used.... which makes it difficult to pass comments on the tone/content and suggestions on correction. Again, Thanks in advance if you can restore the references at least, cheers! Zhanzhao (talk) 01:28, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Guy, Silviu Ionescu IS (if i can use a font 100 size, for this word, I will) proven to be the person behind the wheel for the two accidents. A COURT IN SINGAPORE HAS GIVEN THAT VERDICT. Fair chance has been given for him to come and attend the court and present his version of the story. BUT HE REFUSED ! So Guy, if you ARE NOT ABLE to follow this, how are you in the position to decide ? Is there a Wikipedia procedure to raise question on the credibility of an admin ? Ronald2010 (talk) 01:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Frank, I have done [| AFC]. I am not sure how this will go, but I am creating a short summary first. Should I add the details in ? Or shall I wait for other Wikipedians to comment ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.7.15.234 (talk) 05:23, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

add in my signature 121.7.15.234 (talk) 05:25, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

CSD

thanks for the message but it looks like someone else decided not to wait. NtheP (talk) 17:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

(Re: Crouch-DeVries) You're right, but I disagree with that deletion and said so.  Frank  |  talk  17:05, 6 April 2010

Crouch-DeVries

If you had read the original article completely, you might have noticed that it was really nothing more than a wedding announcement. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 17:20, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I certainly read it all; perhaps "noticed it was really nothing more than" is an interpretation and not an absolute. Nevertheless, it's not a completely unreasonable interpretation...I just didn't think it falls so obviously under A7. Still, as I indicated on the deleting admin's talk page, I went ahead and deleted Mrs. Janack's Class and Mrs. Janack's 4th Grade moments later, so...maybe I shoulda just kept my fingers quiet after all.  Frank  |  talk  17:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Nightrider (DC Comics)

I am trying to put the character bio in my own words. You just deleted a half-hours' work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hotspur23 (talk • contribs)

It was a copy-paste WP:CSD#G12 copyright violation.  Frank  |  talk  11:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

"This Stuff is Not Encyclopedic at All"

This is an example of what is WRONG with Wikipedia. You deleted this material by claiming "this stuff is not encyclopedic at all":

It should be noted that some cases come from nations (such as the United Kingdom) with compulsory birth registration and a central government register of documents; these cases are more than 90% likely to be eventually verified. Others come from nations that, historically, have had few or no verified cases, and thus one can infer that their likelihood of verification will be small (less than 10%). Since cases of persons just turning 110 are often less likely to be processed, the reader can infer that cases nearer the top of the list are less likely to be verified. For example, if someone is now listed as age 112, the case had more than two years to produce sufficient evidence of age. In addition, studies have shown that the validation rate for cases decreases, the higher the age claimed (in part because the true cases, if younger than the false/exaggerated claims, will be more likely to die first). Thus, this list can be viewed, inferentially, as a sliding scale of believability.

Yet I am offering my expertise in this area. In fact, I have material soon to be published that will show this to be true. I suppose the world can wait until it reaches journal publication. That does NOT mean, however, that this is not encyclopedic. It should be obvious, really, that the higher the age claimed, the less likely it is to be true. Why? Let's consider a hypothetical situation.

We have 30 people claiming to be 110. Of these, 20 are 110; 7 are 109; 2 are 100 and one is 90 years old. Who is most-likely to die first? If the death rate at 110 is 50% and at 90 or 100 it is closer to 25-30%, and we go one year later, it statistically more likely that some of the real 110-year-olds died first.

Suppose, one year later, of the 30 people, we now have 20. Of these, one is 91, 2 are 101, and four are 110. 13 are 111. The number of "real" people aged 111 is now 65%, down from 67% a year earlier.

Eventually, the number of real people drop rapidly. Let's say five year later, we now have three people left: all the 111-year-olds have died; the three remaining are 115 (but claiming 116); 106 (but claiming 116); and 96 (but claiming 116). By this point, none of the claims are true (validation rate 0%), although one is close to being true.

Even in the USA, more than 99% of claims to age 116+ are false...imagine how bad the records from places like India are, where "136" year-olds turn out to be 100 years old (as actually happened).

Ryoung122 18:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to this edit and edit summary. I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding regarding that comment in specific and how Wikipedia works in general. I am not saying that what is written is incorrect; what I'm saying is that when there are seven tags on a single paragraph, it is by definition not encyclopedic. I can add to those tags: It should be noted is WP:WEASEL wording; one can infer and the reader can infer are most certainly not encyclopedic wording (rather, they sound like academic papers and personal opinion); and the phrase studies have shown cries out for a {{fact}} tag.

You understand verifiability in general, and I believe more specifically that you understand WP:V, which is one of Wikipedia's core policies. If you find that to be something WRONG with Wikipedia, there's not a whole lot I can personally do about it; such a feeling runs counter to how Wikipedia works and is unlikely to get much traction. That you are a recognized expert in your field is not in question; neither is it relevant. The information must be verifiable with appropriate citations from reliable sources.  Frank  |  talk  21:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)