User talk:Dialectric

WPCD

Hi. Just to say the the WPCD 2 which you helped with is now browsable at http://schools-wikipedia.org and will be downloadable tomorrow evening. Thanks again. --BozMo talk 11:39, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

factory farming/intensive farming

Hi, I noticed you had some thoughts on intensive farming discussion page. There's a deadlock in progress over a plan to merge it and factory farming and industrial agriculture (which I'm against I should state). As this affects intensive farming perhaps you'd like to contribute. NathanLee 19:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

For the link on the searches. We do want to improve this aspect and I will have a look

--BozMo talk 09:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion of Privatization in India

...I know that the article wasn't a copyright infringement when you wrote it, but all the revisions following yours were so I tagged it as such. Seeing as the original article consisted of one sentence, I imagine you could write it again.--User:Dycedarg 09:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

-- Thanks, its not one of my priorities, but you're welcome to write it again. Dialectric (talk) 18:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Schools WP

Thanks for the comments, keep going. I will make sure I have been through them all before the final cut (which is going to be mid April). --BozMo talk 17:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New front page discussion re: wikipedia selection 2008

Certainly be happy to look at any mock up, and agree what is there isn't great. The other hand made pages (subject pages, index pages) also could do with some work. The 2008/9 version is planned out end May with one addition which is "bus tours" where for pre programmed topics (say: "Tudor Britain") a little animated bus with take you through a series of articles clicking on the link from each one to the next. So we perhaps should add a bus stop... --BozMo talk 20:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above is a first attempt at a mockup for the subject page.

I considered using the icons from the Wikipedia:Version_0.7 / wikipedia 1.0 project, but they are somewhat inconsistent.
the current version only has 9/10 subjects vs. the selection project's 15. Wikipedia 1.0 project uses 10:
- 1 Arts
- 2 Language and literature
- 3 Philosophy and religion
- 4 Everyday life
- 5 Society and social sciences
- 6 Geography
- 7 History
- 8 Applied sciences and technology
- 9 Mathematics
- 10 Natural sciences
this is just a photoshop mockup, but I could make an xhtml if needed.

here is a possible alternate design for the front page. The text content is unfinished/filler taken from 2007 page.
I also have alternate versions w/o the 'buttons', which would be done in css rather than graphics.
both ideas are definitely open to changes/suggestions.

Dialectric (talk) 14:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Olduvai theory

Were you aware of the drought related problems affecting hydro-electrical supply? www.energyshortage.org/ - Worldwide Energy Shortages - is updated daily with links to news articles listing many of the countries with energy shortages and the causes for them. You have to admit that all the evidence is suggesting that the peak oil and olduvai theories are correct. - Shiftchange (talk) 03:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a geology background, so can't make an informed judgement about 'peak oil' theory, though it seems plausible/likely. Olduvai theory, on the other hand is highly speculative, and makes predictive claims about a system (global economics) of massive complexity using limited data. As such, it seems incorrect to me, but I guess we'll see in 20 years, after the massive die-off. You might want to check out the life-boat hypothesis - environmental scientists were making similar predictions in the 1970s about die-offs resulting from exceeding agricultural carrying capacity.

The link you've posted is certainly interesting, but power shortages, like food shortages, are more often the result of breakdowns and inefficiencies in supply systems, including governance, infrastructure, etc, which are unrelated to how much power, or food, is actually available globally.

Dialectric (talk) 12:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the message

Thank you for the wisdom and advice. What I am trying to do is some major research on all of these inventions so that they can be given credibility. By incorporating in text citations, the U.S. Inventions and Discoveries page will be more credible. Thanks again! --Yoganate79 (talk) 02:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unwatched

John Reaves 03:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Islamic Inventions

Hello. Sorry, saw your entry on my talk page just now. Do not know about any other articles such as these two, but I have seen that user now for over a year copying and pasting badly researched and consistently one-sided material in all kinds of articles. He has over 40,000 edits, so you know...I think his consistent misquotation and overinterpretation of sources has brought POV to a new level in Wikipedia, because people tend to believe in assertions more if thez are backed up by a footnote. They are less prone to assume that the information is taken out of context or subtly modified to suit fix preconceptions. Thats why it has been so hard to come this new method. It needs hundreds of footnotes to be checked and most third party observers do not have the time, nor the interest to completely rewrite articles which were written wrongly from the scratch. A case in point is Talk:Inventions of the Islamic Golden Age. The net result is that, while many believe the article to be POV and have tried to improve it, many dubious assertions are still there and spread their message.

PS: Just checked again Timeline of historic inventions. It is hard to find a single uncontested invention there. Too many lists just lack information to the contrary. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:04, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I know. The only feasible way of stopping "devotee" POV is to have some guy tagging them all day, and the number of "devotees" of anything far outweighs the number of any would-be obssessive opponent. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 23:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly my thoughts - and my experience. It is very difficult to come by this mass production of NPOV articles and entries. I feel this begins to affect Wikipedia. A more rigorous application of deleting policy may have a deterring effect. I find it frustating when people vote for keep, but then nothing ever happens in improving these articles, what needs a HUGE amount of time and patience. Better delete and give somebody other a new chance to do it better from the outset. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi YellowMonkey, I picked up on this discussion through the two related afds. I'm currently looking into one particular source used in one of the islamic science afd articles, and over 100 other articles, which seems to follow this same trend of non-neutral/revisionist history of invention: "Rocket Technology in Turkish history". I've posted it on the sources discussion board (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Rocket_Technology_in_Turkish_history) and wonder how to approach cleaning up an unreliable source that has been used in so many articles. Dialectric (talk) 15:34, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note, I'll have a look. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 00:53, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I don't think "Muslimheritage" is reliable at all, sounds more like a pride/activist website. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unreliable Source, ongoing project

The document "The First Attempts of Flight, Automatic Machines, Submarines and Rocket Technology in Turkish History" by Arslan Terzioglu (2007) was/is being used as a source in a number of articles relating to technology and history. The paper has a number of major errors including incorrect citation, which cast the entirety of its facts into doubt. As such, it cannot be trusted as a source for information, and I will continue to remove it where it is listed as a reference.

see:

Dialectric (talk) 00:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Overlinked

I have removed (almost) all duplicate internal links from Inventions in medieval Islam, and a few other trivial ones as well. If there are any more links you think should be removed, please feel free to do so. I will soon do the same on Medicine in medieval Islam as well. Debresser (talk) 21:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I am just a wikignome, watching a dozen of maintenance categories, including Category:Articles with too many wikilinks. Debresser (talk) 21:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Islamic trade/economics section

This section, which appears on a number of pages, makes a number of false claims, which I detail below. These errors are significant enough to justify the section's removal.

The origins of capitalism and free markets can be traced back to the Caliphate,^[1] where the first market economy and earliest forms of merchant capitalism took root between the 8th-12th centuries, which some refer to as "Islamic capitalism".^[2] A vigorous monetary economy was created on the basis of the expanding levels of circulation of a stable high-value currency (the dinar) and the integration of monetary areas that were previously independent. Innovative new business techniques and forms of business organisation were introduced by economists, merchants and traders during this time. Such innovations included the earliest trading companies, credit cards, big businesses, contracts, bills of exchange, long-distance international trade, the first forms of partnership (mufawada) such as limited partnerships (mudaraba), and the earliest forms of credit, debt, profit, loss, capital (al-mal), capital accumulation (nama al-mal),^[3] circulating capital, capital expenditure, revenue, cheques, promissory notes,^[4] trusts (waqf), startup companies,^[5] savings accounts, transactional accounts, pawning, loaning, exchange rates, bankers, money changers, ledgers, deposits, assignments, the double-entry bookkeeping system,^[2] and lawsuits.^[6] Organizational enterprises similar to corporations independent from the state also existed in the medieval Islamic world.^[7]^[8] Many of these early capitalist concepts were adopted and further advanced in medieval Europe from the 13th century onwards.^[3]

The systems of contract relied upon by merchants was very effective. Merchants would buy and sell on commission, with money loaned to them by wealthy investors, or a joint investment of several merchants, who were often Muslim, Christian and Jewish. Recently, a collection of documents was found in an Egyptian synagogue shedding a very detailed and human light on the life of medieval Middle Eastern merchants. Business partnerships would be made for many commercial ventures, and bonds of kinship enabled trade networks to form over huge distances. Networks developed during this time enabled a world in which money could be promised by a bank in Baghdad and cashed in Spain, creating the cheque system of today. Each time items passed through the cities along this extraordinary network, the city imposed a tax, resulting in high prices once reaching the final destination. These innovations made by Muslims and Jews laid the foundations for the modern economic system.

^ Postan, M. M. (1987). Trade and Industry in the Middle Ages. The Cambridge economic history of Europe. Vol. 2. Cambridge University Press. p. 437. ISBN 0521087090.
^ ^a ^b Labib, Subhi Y. (1969). "Capitalism in Medieval Islam". The Journal of Economic History. 29 (1): 79–96 [81, 83, 85, 90, 93, 96]. doi:10.2307/2115499. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |doi_brokendate= ignored (|doi-broken-date= suggested) (help)
^ ^a ^b Banaji, Jairus (2007). "Islam, the Mediterranean and the rise of capitalism". Journal Historical Materialism. 15 (1): 47–74. doi:10.1163/156920607X171591. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)
^ Lopez, Robert Sabatino (2001). Medieval Trade in the Mediterranean World: Illustrative Documents. New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 0231123574. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
^ Kuran, Timur (2005). "The Absence of the Corporation in Islamic Law: Origins and Persistence" (PDF). American Journal of Comparative Law. 53: 785–834 [798–799]. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)
^ Spier, Ray (2002). "The history of the peer-review process". Trends in Biotechnology. 20 (8): 357–358 [357]. doi:10.1016/S0167-7799(02)01985-6. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)
^ Arjomand, Said Amir (1999). "The Law, Agency, and Policy in Medieval Islamic Society: Development of the Institutions of Learning from the Tenth to the Fifteenth Century". Comparative Studies in Society and History. 41: 263–293. doi:10.1017/S001041759900208X. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)
^ Amin, Samir (1978). "The Arab Nation: Some Conclusions and Problems". MERIP Reports. 68 (68): 3–14 [8, 13]. doi:10.2307/3011226. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

Challenges to above statements

Capitalism – either the definition of modern capitalism is used, situating the origin of capitalism in post-Renaissance Europe with corporations, generalized markets including a competitive labor market, investment banking, and commodity futures exchanges, or a looser standard of capitalist behavior is used, including international commerce, trade for the sake of profit, and long term credit, in which case the ancient world, as early as the 2nd millennium B.C. is the origin. Neither capitalist behavior nor modern capitalism originated in the Islamic world.( Warburton p 49)

free markets - a number ancient Near Eastern cultures taxed grain production for revenue and did not restrict the actions or movements of merchants, who thus engaged in free markets.

market economy, merchant capitalism – markets with active profit-seeking merchants existed as early as the 2nd millennium BC in the Indus Valley, the ancient Near East, and the Agean. ( Warburton p 49)

monetary economy was created on the basis of... a stable high-value currency (the dinar)- the word dinar is derived from the Roman Denarius, which alone should suggest that Islamic society was not a pioneer in this area. Roman coinage circulated widely and was relatively stable. Silver and Shekels were widely used for inter-regional trade in the pre-Roman ancient world, and also were relatively stable. In fact, the dinar was not particularly stable, with the silver currency repeatedly debased by increased alloying from the 10th century onwards(Ashtor. p 175,176, 292)

big businesses - Corporations are a modern development, companies a development of Renaissance Italy. Ancient palaces acting as businesses were large in geographic and economic scale.(Warburton p119) Business in Muslim areas in the middle ages and up until the 19th century were in fact constricted in size and scale due to the limited scope of Islamic partnership law (Kuran p2)

contracts, long-distance international trade, credit, debt, profit, loss, capital, capital accumulation (nama al-mal), circulating capital, capital expenditure, revenue - all of these were present in ancient market economies (and control/palace economies) with profit-seeking traders who keep books/records. As such, they were present in the Roman empire, and in some form in ancient near-eastern trading cultures, notably the Old Assyrians, as early as the 2nd millennium BC.(Warburton p49,51,133)

loaning, exchange rates, bankers, money changers – these were all present in the Roman empire, and loans were recorded in the first millennium BC under Sargon II of Assyria (Warburton .P345)

earliest trading companies, credit cards, bills of exchange, the first forms of partnership (mufawada) such as limited partnerships (mudaraba), cheques, trusts (waqf), startup companies - Although partnerships were prevalent in the medieval Islamic world, they did not originate there, since partnerships existed in Roman times (Kuran.p15). These partnerships cannot be considered (startup) companies because of the restrictions imposed by Islamic law including limiting waquf formation to an individual rather than a group or association, limiting control to the founder and founding deed, which deed was considered unalterable, and enforced by judges. The modern company emerged in Renaissance Italy.(Kuran. p19). The claim that credit cards originated in the Medieval Islamic world is not credible and needs no counter-citation.

lawsuits. the lawsuit predates Islam, and was certainly present in Roman times. “Corpus Juris Civilis, the law code compiled during the reign of Justinian I , allows the imperial treasury to sue and be sued in court.” (Kuran p5)

Organizational enterprises similar to corporations... existed in the medieval Islamic world. the modern Corporation originated in post-Renaissance Europe. If a loose definition of similarity is used, such organizations appeared in Roman times(Kuran p4,5) In fact, Kuran's paper (which was cited in this section as support for the claim to 'startup companies') points out that the Islamic world avoided organizational structures similar to the corporation until the late 19th century, instead focusing on more limited trusts.

These remain unchallenged for now, but based upon the above mis-attribution, they are on tenuous ground:

promissory notes, pawning, the double-entry bookkeeping system

References

Warburton, David, Macroeconomics from the beginning: The General Theory, Ancient Markets, and the Rate of Interest. Paris: Recherches et Publications, 2003.

E. Ashtor, A Social and Economic History of the Near East in the Middle Ages. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1976.

Timur Kuran (2005), "The Absence of the Corporation in Islamic Law: Origins and Persistence", American Journal of Comparative Law 53, pp. 785–834.

I saw your note over at Talk:Ancient_economic_thought#Removal_of_Capitalist_market_economy_section_which_discussed_Islamic_Islamic_origin_of_economic_structures. I haven't looked at your sources, but it seems like you've done your homework on this. Have you talked to the person who added this material (diff). II | (t - c) 07:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This content was added to a number of articles at various times, and I have not yet put in the time to track down and contact the original author. I see you have contacted Jagged 85, who contributed some of the material to some pages, and may be responsible for most of it, but I have not made that assumption nor dug through the history to find who authored the material. I noted (and linked to) the discussion here in my edit summary, and on the articles' talk pages, and hope that was sufficient to making my actions known to interested parties. Dialectric (talk) 12:25, 12 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies to be scribbling on your talk page so frequently recently, but I noticed the discussion above and wondered if you might take a look at User:Syncategoremata/Misuse of sources and the material that I (and other editors) have gathered about this particular editor.

I would be interested if you had any other material, in particular recent edits, or if you had any advice about how to deal with this sort of issue. I am too new here on Wikipedia to have a good grasp on how to proceed at this point.

All the best. –Syncategoremata (talk) 08:05, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Life expectancy in the Caliphate.

Many thanks for your reply to my question to Jagged 85 (talk · contribs) about the life expectancy in the Caliphate. I've just tagged quite generally the claims made about this on Wikipedia and put some discussion at Talk:Islamic Golden Age#Claims on life expectancy. I only know enough in this area to note that the claims are badly sourced and distorted, so I'm not likely to be able to contribute much more now, other than deleting all of the claims in due course if nothing better is found to support them.

All the best. —Syncategoremata (talk) 12:16, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Al-Andalus repeated copyvio issue

I've just reverted your c/e'ing of the edits made by 119.155.74.177 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (along with their edits) as those appear to be WP:COPYVIO from [1]. I guess the same person did exactly that a few days ago from 119.155.74.224 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). I'll leave a note on their talk page but I guess they won't see it as they seem to be address hopping.

All the best. —Syncategoremata (talk) 19:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tip of the tip of the iceberg

This is just the tip of the iceberg. See User:Syncategoremata/Misuse of sources and User:Gun Powder Ma/Misuse of sources for trying to make a case. If you could join in with your past experience by creating a similar list, that would be a great help. The more people voice their concern now, the better. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:44, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RFC discussion of User:Jagged 85

A request for comments has been filed concerning the conduct of Jagged 85 (talk · contribs). You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jagged 85. -- Syncategoremata (talk) 17:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Postan, M. M. (1987). Trade and Industry in the Middle Ages. The Cambridge economic history of Europe. Vol. 2. Cambridge University Press. p. 437. ISBN 0521087090.

[Labib1969-2] Labib, Subhi Y. (1969). "Capitalism in Medieval Islam". The Journal of Economic History. 29 (1): 79–96 [81, 83, 85, 90, 93, 96]. doi:10.2307/2115499. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |doi_brokendate= ignored (|doi-broken-date= suggested) (help)

[Banaji-3] Banaji, Jairus (2007). "Islam, the Mediterranean and the rise of capitalism". Journal Historical Materialism. 15 (1): 47–74. doi:10.1163/156920607X171591. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

[4] Lopez, Robert Sabatino (2001). Medieval Trade in the Mediterranean World: Illustrative Documents. New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 0231123574. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

[5] Kuran, Timur (2005). "The Absence of the Corporation in Islamic Law: Origins and Persistence" (PDF). American Journal of Comparative Law. 53: 785–834 [798–799]. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

[6] Spier, Ray (2002). "The history of the peer-review process". Trends in Biotechnology. 20 (8): 357–358 [357]. doi:10.1016/S0167-7799(02)01985-6. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

[7] Arjomand, Said Amir (1999). "The Law, Agency, and Policy in Medieval Islamic Society: Development of the Institutions of Learning from the Tenth to the Fifteenth Century". Comparative Studies in Society and History. 41: 263–293. doi:10.1017/S001041759900208X. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

[8] Amin, Samir (1978). "The Arab Nation: Some Conclusions and Problems". MERIP Reports. 68 (68): 3–14 [8, 13]. doi:10.2307/3011226. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

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