Talk:Prophecy of Seventy Weeks

Another alternative?

One view that seems to missing from this article is actually one of the more popular (among non-Fundamentalist scholars, that is). It holds that the 'decree' should actually be dated from Jeremiah's prophecy that the Temple would be rebuilt (see Daniel 9:2, Jeremiah 29:10, Jeremiah 30:17-18, Jeremiah 31:38). Further, the Hebrew word 'dabar' is generally thought to be mistranslated in the KJV - in fact, it means 'word' as in 'the word of the Lord' (Dan 9:2). This then puts the start of the 70 'weeks' at the second siege, i.e. 587 BC. The first division of seven 'weeks' would then end at 536 BC - almost exactly the same time that Cyrus conquered Babylon and ended the Exile. (Also note that the KJV inserts a definite article before the word 'Messiah'. In fact, the text has no definite article - it should read 'an Anointed One', as in the RSV and NJB. The next division of 62 weeks would take us (approximately) to the time of Antiochus IV. The final 'week' would then refer to the seven years of persecution under Antiochus, from 171 BC (when the last Zadokite High Priest was murdered) to 164 BC (the death of Antiochus). It is also interesting to note that both Maccabees and Josephus point out that Antiochus violated his treaty of peace with the Jews in 167-168 BC - i.e. in the middle of the seventieth week (I Maccabees 1:29, Josephus Antiquities Book XX 11:3, Dan 9:27).

--Curtvdh 19:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The article certainly needs some expansion. For instance, the skeptical position is barely alluded to: "Skeptical scholars like J.A. Montgomery claim that the weeks are really the same as the years previously decreed. This allows for the fulfillment of the prophecy to reside in the person of Antiochus Epiphanes". OK, but how exactly? I see no mention of the events of the Maccabean Rebellion, the murder of the Anointed One (high priest), the Abomination of Desolation (the statue of Zeus in the temple) and so on. --Robert Stevens 14:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll get started on a revision - I'm familiar with the Maccabean Interpretation as well as the Dispensationalist. I need to do a little research on the Preterist interpretation, as well as the various Jewish interpretations. Fortunately, I have over 30 commentaries on Daniel covering all the major interpretations in my personal library, so I don't have to go far ;-) --Curtvdh 05:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

One thing I remember Montgomery saying, which added weight to the Christian messiah theory was that the time periods didn't match up. But I think if you take 'return and restore' Jerusalem in Jeremiah's sense 25:5, the first seven weeks are an approximation of the time mentioned in verse 2 (including other prophets), 62 weeks from the 4th year of Jehoikim takes us to Onias III (I think). Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 14:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope Curtvdh gets back to us. At the present moment of time I lean towards Nethaniel West's interpretation in which he believes the first week took more than 49 years to be fulfilled as the years when the Jews were in apostasy and not building the wall are not to be counted. If your unfamiliar with West's theory I will dig out his dates. I am reluctant to abandon the belief that the last week has yet to be fulfilled.--Another berean (talk) 10:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The only reason I have preferred the Christian interpretation has been that the last verses speak of extermination - which happened in 70AD. But could Strong's number 3617 be 3615 - a verb. The consonants and pointings are the same, and it could be 'until finished' - no mention of extermination. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Philip Mauro - article required

We could do with a Wikipedia article about Philip Mauro (1859-1952), a member of the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States and one of the foremost patent lawyers of his day. The biography by Gordon P. Gardiner could be a useful source to start this. See [1]. DFH 20:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge of Chronology

This article, Book of Ezra, and Book of Nehemiah, all contain a lengthy section about trying to date the events shared in common. The section was added to this article by User:Wstruse (whose only edits have been to these three articles and his user page) and then added as a whole to the other two articles. Given the encyclopedic importance of the issue it should be in the Wiki, but it doesn't need to be in three places. Worse, I think this may well include a copy edit violation, given the non-sequitur nature of having Tables 6.2, 6.3, and 6.4, but no others. I am uncertain as to whether this should be broken out into a separate article or left as an article in this article, but it defnitely needs a rewrite, verification, and a check against possible copyvios. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It contains redundancies with the preceding section and also nonsense about Darius (who has enough years but is clearly not called Artaxerxes, wbich BTW is not a title but the actual name of the King nick-named Longimanus and later adopted as regnal names by Artaxerxes II, III (Ochus) and IV (Arses). Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 13:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite & Verification

Caerwine,

I agree, this chronology does not need to be in three places. I am not sure the best way to go about rectifying the situation. I provided the contribution with the hope that someone would be able to present it in a more desirable manner. I realize my writing skills leave much to be desired. As to the copy edit violations, the words as well as the tables are mine. The tables were created by me in Xcel format. I could not provide them as originally created hence the table without the format.

________

For those who may be interested in rewriting this information or verifying it the following may also be useful.

The Apocrypha is considered an extra-Biblical text that was not included in the Cannon of Scriptures that makes up the common Bible today. The Apocrypha contains the books of 1st Esdras & 2nd Esdras (also called 4th Esdras). The book of 1st Esdras is almost a word for word version of the Canonical books of Ezra, Nehemiah and part of Chronicles. 2nd Esdras (4th) contains much more information regarding Ezra and his prophetic visions relating to the end of the age and the Messianic era. None of 2nd Esdras (Ezra) is contained in the Canonical Scriptures. 1st Esdras and 2nd Esdras were in wide circulation up until at least the council of Trent. It is from Esdras that Josephus repeatedly quotes or references. Josephus died in 79 AD so it is likely that the books of Esdras were in circulation some decades before his death. It is likely that Esdras was based on the original Hebrew versions of the books of Ezra, Nehemiah and Chronicles that were in circulation at that time.

In 2nd Esdras (also called 4th Esdras), Ezra states that he was in Babylon 30 years after Jerusalem was destroyed. 2nd Esdras also states that Ezra was one of the last remaining prophets of his time.

4 Esdras 3:1-2 In the thirtieth year after the ruin of the city I was in Babylon, and lay troubled upon my bed, and my thoughts came up over my heart: 2 For I saw the desolation of Sion, and the wealth of them that dwelt at Babylon.

4 Esdras 10:44-48 44 This woman, whom thou sawest is Sion: and whereas she said unto thee, even she whom thou seest as a city builded, 45 Whereas, I say, she said unto thee, that she hath been thirty years barren: those are the thirty years wherein there was no offering made in her. 46 But after thirty years Solomon builded the city and offered offerings: and then bare the barren a son. 47 And whereas she told thee that she nourished him with labour: that was the dwelling in Jerusalem. 48 But whereas she said unto thee, That my son coming into his marriage chamber happened to have a fail, and died: this was the destruction that came to Jerusalem.

This book of 2nd (4th) Esdras confirms that Ezra was alive during the Babylonian captivity. Not only was he alive but 30 years after the destruction of Jerusalem (i.e. 556 BC) he was a respected prophet of the people in Babylon. This confirms the Canonical book of Ezra where it states that Seraiah the high priest was Ezra’s father. As a respected prophet 30 years after the destruction of Jerusalem Ezra is definitely a 1st generation member of the Judean captives. Ezra’s father died in around the time of the destruction of Jerusalem so at a minimum Ezra the prophet was 30 years old when these events are described in 2nd Esdras.

In 1909 Louis Ginzberg chronologically collated the traditions of the Jewish people found in the Talmud, Midrash and other traditional oral sources. These traditions or “Legends of the Jews” all centered on the oral traditions regarding the Scriptural narrative. Here are a few of excerpts from the “The Legends of the Jews”:

In the “Legends of the Jews” part XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY It states the following regarding Ezra:

…………….The complete resettlement of Palestine took place under the direction of Ezra, or, as the Scriptures sometimes call him, Malachi. He had not been present at the earlier attempts to restore the sanctuary, because he could not leave his old teacher Baruch, who was too advanced in years to venture upon the difficult journey to the Holy Land. …………………………….

In the “Legends of the Jews” part XI. THE RETURN OF THE CAPTIVITY It states the following regarding Daniel:

…………………….. The king consented on condition that Daniel designate a successor worthy of him. His choice fell upon Zerubbabel. Loaded with rich presents and amid public demonstrations designed to honor him, Daniel retired from public life. He settled in the city of Shushan, where he abode until his end. Though he was no prophet, God vouchsafed to him a knowledge of the "end of time" not granted his friends, the prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, but even he, in the fulness of his years, lost all memory of the revelation with which he had been favored. …………..

Both of the above passages place Ezra as a contemporary with Daniel, Zerubbabel, Haggai and Zechariah. The 1st specifically state that Ezra was alive during the first attempts to restore the 2nd temple. The 2nd passage states that Ezra (also called Malachi) was a friend of Daniel. Granted the Apocrypha and Ginsberg’s “Legends of the Jews” are not considered “inspired” texts. At a minimum they are examples of historical documents that in fact do confirm the Scriptural record regarding Ezra as a 1st generation Babylonian exile who lived contemporaneously with Haggai, Zechariah, Zerubbabel and Daniel.

Regards, Wstruse Wstruse 21:20, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

I find the Prophecy of Daniel's 70th Week wholly prejudiced in its emphasis and co-opted by the Seventh-Day Adventist brand of eschatology. Daniel's Seventieth Week is not the exclusive purview of the Adventists--most definitely, Dispensationalists or Progressive Dispensationalists are wholly engaged in the debate over the futurity of Daniel's Seventieth Week and have been since 1840. The futurity of Daniel's 70th Week is also a major emphasis in the early Church, especially in the third century (i.e., its total futurity in the writings of Hippolytus (his tractates on Daniel and Antichrist acclaim the entire 70th Week of Daniel is yet future). In particular, I find it disconcerting to attribute the work of Antichrist to Jesus Christ in that the antecedent in Daniel 9:27 (i.e., "he" shall confirm a covenant, etc.) was and is NOT Jesus Christ during His ministry or at His crucifixion or His resurrection, but that this "he" is none other than the previous individual mentioned in Daniel 9:26: "the prince who is to come" - the same one whose people destroyed the city of Jerusalem, and some say, yet future destruction of Jerusalem.

In all intellectual fairness, this article is wholly deficient and I believe the editors of Wikipedia must come to grips with what is actually a very one-sided presentation of this most significant piece of prophetic writ. MOST of American Evangelicalism holds to a Premillenarian view of Bible prophecy. And, in the main (witness "The Late Great Planet Earth" and the entire "Left Behind Series") affirms that the commencement of the Daniel's 70th Week is the "Treaty with Hell and Death" - the infamous Treaty between Antichrist and Israel to guarantee Israel's security in the "end of days."

There is a complete disconnect of Daniel 9:27 on the part of the Adventists from the the remaining verses of Daniel 7 through 12 (Chapters 7-12) which speaks directly and in context to what is going on in Daniel 9 - i.e., Daniel 9 is not a "stand alone" - there are a multitude of direct and adumbrative texts in Daniel which preclude that Daniel 9:27 be interpreted in isolation! Again, the Seventh-Day Adventists do not own the Seventieth Week of Daniel. Regards, DWKrieger kriegerdwm 00:36, 11 December 2007 (PST)

Antichrist and Daniel's 70th Week

I find the Prophecy of Daniel's 70th Week wholly prejudiced in its emphasis and co-opted by the Seventh-Day Adventist brand of eschatology. Daniel's Seventieth Week is not the exclusive purview of the Adventists--most definitely, Dispensationalists or Progressive Dispensationalists are wholly engaged in the debate over the futurity of Daniel's Seventieth Week and have been since 1840. The futurity of Daniel's 70th Week is also a major emphasis in the early Church, especially in the third century (i.e., its total futurity in the writings of Hippolytus (his tractates on Daniel and Antichrist acclaim the entire 70th Week of Daniel is yet future). In particular, I find it disconcerting to attribute the work of Antichrist to Jesus Christ in that the antecedent in Daniel 9:27 (i.e., "he" shall confirm a covenant, etc.) was and is NOT Jesus Christ during His ministry or at His crucifixion or His resurrection, but that this "he" is none other than the previous individual mentioned in Daniel 9:26: "the prince who is to come" - the same one whose people destroyed the city of Jerusalem, and some say, yet future destruction of Jerusalem.

In all intellectual fairness, this article is wholly deficient and I believe the editors of Wikipedia must come to grips with what is actually a very one-sided presentation of this most significant piece of prophetic writ. MOST of American Evangelicalism holds to a Premillenarian view of Bible prophecy. And, in the main (witness "The Late Great Planet Earth" and the entire "Left Behind Series") affirms that the commencement of the Daniel's 70th Week is the "Treaty with Hell and Death" - the infamous Treaty between Antichrist and Israel to guarantee Israel's security in the "end of days."

There is a complete disconnect of Daniel 9:27 on the part of the Adventists from the the remaining verses of Daniel 7 through 12 (Chapters 7-12) which speaks directly and in context to what is going on in Daniel 9 - i.e., Daniel 9 is not a "stand alone" - there are a multitude of direct and adumbrative texts in Daniel which preclude that Daniel 9:27 be interpreted in isolation! Again, the Seventh-Day Adventists do not own the Seventieth Week of Daniel. Regards, DWKrieger kriegerdwm 00:36, 11 December 2007 (PST)

Verse 27 is not isolated from the rest, because verses 25-27 form a tight literary chiasm. It is the literary structure that defines who the antecedent is to which "he". In this case the literary structure is:

Jerusalem constructed

Messiah to come

Jerusalem constructed

Messiah comes to save others not himself

Jerusalem destroyed

Messiah cancels the written code, with its regulations, (i.e. the Temple ceremonial code/law) nailing it to the cross

Jerusalem destroyed

The "Left Behind Series" is a novel based on very sloppy interpretation of Bible Prophecy. Hal Lindsey was proven wrong in the 1980s when all his predictions were supposed to have come true. Christian Skeptic (talk) 01:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Dating of the prophecy or authenticating it

Could the fact that the numbers in the prophecy are written out in full, rather than using numerals, allow for, although not prove, an earlier dating of Daniel 9. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 15:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This site says Hebrews generally used numbers spelt out (documents?) or, in inscriptions, frequently written according to well known 'arbitrary' symbols (while speculating that one instance of using alphabetic numerals at that age may have been found dating from 312BCE): http://books.google.com/books?id=2nHLqnmLNckC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=phoenician+numbers&source=web&ots=NV6LF8MUHE&sig=_2ls9xA6dmRM3FS_-FNcUy1gkMI The 'spelt out' numbers must be in the bible, but it does say this was also the practice of the Phoenicians. Although there are exceptions (there are inscriptions spelt out (such as the Moabite stone and the Siloam inscription - both of which at some time were claimed by scholars to be written after the claimed date(The Story of a Forgery and the Mesa Inscription, A. S. Yahuda and 'Was the Siloam Tunnel Built by Hezekiah', Rogerson and Davies), and manuscripts with numerals (the hypothetical proto-masoretic script)), this is a rough guide and there is no unequivocal correlation between style and chronology.

Archaic numbers: From 'Insight on the Scriptures' under Number, Numerals, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, it is said that numbers written on archaic Saloam Tunnel are fully spelled out. The Moabite stone is one example, dating from 930BCE. Could the writer have avoided numerals because of the official nature of the stone? In 'The Phoenician Stele Inscription from Cilicia' by R. Marcus and I.J.Gelb, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol 8, No 2 (Apr 1949) pp116-120, the Phoenician Stele (740BCE), an official artifact, included a vertical stroke for the number 1, for 1 sheep in column 3, line 2, "as normally in hieroglyphic Hittite". If this was a Phoenician inscription, the use of numerals is in accordance with Phoenician and Hebrew custom.

Six examples of archaic numbers —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk • contribs) 11:48, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The Moabite stone (Mid 9th century BC) includes the number thirty and forty as the reigns of kings. In an article in Vetus Testamentum (Vol 52, Fasc 4 (Oct 2002) pp483-492), J.A.Emerton says another author regarded the Moabite stone as a work of fiction (partly because of its' nicely rounded numbers). Emerton refuted this, but the question remains - why weren't numerals used on the Moabite stone? Possibly because of the simple rounded nature of both numerals. (Regarding the Siloam tunnel, In "Was the Siloam Tunnel Built by Hezekiah", John Rogerson and Philip R. Davies say: "...it is frequently not possible to prove on paleographic evidence alone whether a text in paleo-Hebrew dates from, say, the eighth-seventh centuries or is Hasmonean or later". But both these artifacts are well respected).

A paleo-Hebrew TELL QUDEIRAT Ostracon (another inscription) dates from 600BCE and uses hieratic numerals up to one hundred thousand: http://www.mathorigins.com/T.htm, obviously preferring the numerals to written form.

Samaritan Ostraca (800BCE) written in ink on shards of pottery (not broken from a whole vase) and having the same Phonecian script as the Moabite Stone and Siloam tunnel inscription: "The years mentioned are the ninth and tenth, which are always spelled in full, and two others, apparently eleventh and thirteenth, which are always expressed as figures" (Harvard Theological Review, "Hebrew Ostraca from Samaria"). Gandz ('Hebrew Numerals') says several other symbols appear as the number 15 and perhaps the number 17. The number 15 is identical to the hieratic numerals. This is the reverse of the numeral 1 and spelled out number thirty. The figures used in the Ostraca are years of reign, or dates. The figures in the above paragraph are part of remarks. However there are no numerals in the Old Testament at all, it seems the text has been edited and it would be unsafe to draw any chronological conclusions as it is at the moment.

In discussing the hypothetical proto-masoretic numbering system, some articles cite stone masons' marks on the wall of Jerusalem. This site, in the footnote, says the markings were verticle and horizontal strokes too: http://www.sacred-texts.com/gno/gar/gar57.htm. But these are 'inscriptions as well. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 08:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

A find of several sumerian tablets dating from ~600BC has the unusual feature that a lot of numbers in a mathematical table are spelt out as words. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0066-1546(1952)2%3C25%3ATSTAPN%3E2.0.CO%3B2-M Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 22:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

In "Number Idioms of Old Babylonia" by Albrecht Gretze, in the Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol 5 #3 (Jul 1946) p186, it says in recently found mathematical tablets there were "a considerable number with phonetic spelling"

Late numbers: JSTOR: Solomon Gandz, Proceedings of the American Academy of Jewish Research, Vol 4 (1932 - 1933) p 53 -112. p85 says: "However, T Reinbach already advocated the theory that these coins belong rather to a time of 66-70 AD. It is true, Reinbach in his learnerd article on Numismatics, in the Jewish Encyclopaedia, retracted his former opinion and favoured again the date of 139 BC, GA Cooke still holds... that the coins belong to the first revolt against the Romans." The coins were dated for example 'first year' using the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Reinbach's reasoning is available on line at the Jewish Encyclopaedia under ' Date of coins' in the section referred to - numismatics. The section above the dating of coins contains the command to mint them. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=368&letter=N&search=numismatics#1153

Here numerals, which are usually reserved for inscriptions are used in manuscripts. This encyclopaedia says the Elephantine papryi in Aramaic used verticle strokes for units and horozontal strokes for tens. http://books.google.com/books?id=bb6BV_AD5e8C&pg=RA2-PA556&lpg=RA2-PA556&dq=lachish+letters+numbers&source=web&ots=vCFBQMIf9o&sig=vYMsVzsA5Al80U79JARjUGJbBgo Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 08:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC) It seems clear this was the phoenician numbering system as described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet#The_numerals —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk • contribs) 18:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Conclusion

Archaic writings testify to the use of numerals - with the Hebrews adopting the contemporary system in use. It is mysterious that there are no numerals in the Old Testament (as stated by "Insight on the Scriptures".

---

If it is true that numbers, in all cultures, graduated from spelt-out form to numerals wone would expect the New Testament ot be mainly cipher numbers. This link says that this is the case, even though Nestle writes them out: http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/Mathematics.html 121.91.33.130 (talk) 02:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

It would not be a very substantial argument in any case, as it's generally agreed that Daniel purports to be a product of the 6th century BC. If I was writing a fake Shakespeare play, I'd use the language and style of that period, not modern English. --Robert Stevens (talk) 12:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

If the choice of spelled out numbers is due to a Hebrew preference for this in formal text, as Robert Stevens said the writer would naturally prefer this if he was writing as if from God.

Infact there must have been cipher numbers in a copy of the Masoretic text around the time of the writing of the septuagint as the Emphatic Diaglott says http://www.divineplan.org/htdbv5/r1980.htm: ""A difficulty occurs here which has very much puzzled Bible chronologists. The date given here is at variance with the statement found in 1 Kings 6:1. There have been many solutions offered, but only one seems entirely satisfactory; i.e., that the text in 1 Kings 6:1has been corrupted by substituting the Hebrew character daleth (4) for hay (5), which is very similar in form. This would make 580 (instead of 480) from the exodus to the building of the temple, and exactly agree with Paul's chronology."

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 08:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Although a more recent book on chronology states different reasons, not resorting to copying errors: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZkBasQYRy4sC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=%221+kings+6+1%22+chronology&source=web&ots=VtNiE1tIgS&sig=CbTfl2eS3NYzcESfLQW3YlhvEQU

Am I right in thinking that the Dead Sea Scrolls only have a few fragments of Daniel and none of the key verses relating to the 70 weeks were discovered? This is a pity as I hold the opinion that radiocarbon dating methods can be very accurate--Another berean (talk) 10:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I checked this link http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/266 and you are right, Daniel 9 was not found, thanks Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 13:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Although I checked some other sources and three or four fragments of one word length were found from the prayer of Daniel 9. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC) "Daniel Manuscripts from Qumran Part1: A preliminary edition of 4QDana"BASOR 268 Eugene Ulrich, p17:" consists of only five tiny fragments all from the prayer in chapter 9, but none with more than one complete word"

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 10:41, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Daniel 9's conservative dating

Three or four fragments of one word length were found from the prayer of Daniel 9. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 22:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC) "Daniel Manuscripts from Qumran Part1: A preliminary edition of 4QDana"BASOR 268 Eugene Ulrich, p17:" consists of only five tiny fragments all from the prayer in chapter 9, but none with more than one complete word"

The author of this writing gives a future dated (AD) prophetic interpretation of Daniel 9's 70 weeks from the Essenes and mentions that the Pharasees also had a similar prophetic interpretation. http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0048-1009%28199810%2940%3A4%3C407%3AC%26CJ%26C%3E2.0.CO%3B2-9&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 05:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But if the mechanism of prophecy is prophetic dramas (Gal 4:24), Antiochus Epiphanes could have inspired the 70 week prophecy. The word 'understanding' seen in this context could (I wonder) be 'inspired dark sentences' (Dan 8:23).

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 21:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Such a style of writing would be in keeping with the Bible's style of hyperbole. A tidal wave saves the leaving Israwlites: Moses divided the water and the Israelites didn't even get their feet wet; God creates heaven and earth: but the earth puts forth animals; Moses goes up into an active volcano:the earthquakes are called trumpets; a plague kills 185000 Assyrians who were to attack Judah: the king is saved from Assyrian crucifixion miraculously and Psalm 22 has salience.to Christians...

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 09:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 14:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Question

Can anyone explain why from Jesus' birth to the fall of Jerusalem is roughly 70 years? - referring to the 70 sabbaths

Is it some sort of parousia of the Lord of the Sabbath?

Jesus said he would be with us until the conclusion Matt 28:20; which could be the destruction of Jerusalem in Matt 24

Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 16:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't want to enter this in the article as it is a theory but as Gabriel mentions 'a word went forth' could Daniel's words the 'going forth' of the word imply Jesus' going forth from the house of Judah or Bethlehem (Micah 5:1-2) and a seventy Sundays begin from then and end at Jerusalem's destruction. The word 'going forth' is discussed in http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=8815 under mo-tsaw'. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Historical Facts?

I guess I don't understand what you are getting at. All those dates and events are historical and can even be found on other WP pages. What is it that doesn't make them facts? SDA's didn't make them up. Christian Skeptic (talk) 17:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources for which facts? You are extremely vague. You have yet to prove that there is anything controversial about any of the facts about the reconstruction of Jerusalem. And you expect that we are supposed to just take your word for it?! Jerusalem was destroyed. Jerusalem was rebuilt. The exact dates are relatively unimportant. What's your problem....... Christian Skeptic (talk) 03:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you object to the SDA Bible Commentary? It is just as good as any other Bible commentary. Just in case you didn't know, the SDA church is the second or third largest protestant church in the world with some 16 to 17 million members. It operates at least 10 Universities (i.e., Loma Linda University and Medical Center) besides many more colleges, hundreds of secondary schools, and thousands of elementary schools. It has operated government approved archeological digs in Jordan and Israel for more than 40 years. All digs have been published in appropriate journals. To accuse SDA scholars of being unaware of archeology is an argument based on abysmal ignorance. Christian Skeptic (talk) 04:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Who are you talking to?--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

to JoshuaZ. Christian Skeptic (talk) 12:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Reviewing JoshuaZ's edit, he is correct. An SDA source is not an impartial source for validating details asserted to be facts by SDAs.--Jeffro77 (talk) 13:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

As I said in the first paragraph above, the very same information is found on several other WP pages, and they have been linked. So his asking for sources for data already established on WP is ridiculous. Christian Skeptic (talk) 20:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, an SDA source is not a valid source for confirming SDA beliefs as fact. If there are other sources, use them.--Jeffro77 (talk) 21:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't using an SDA source to confirm any SDA belief as a fact. And I don't understand which facts you are talking about? You are just as vague as the other guy. Exactly what 'facts" are you talking about??

The only "historical facts" I was talking about was the reconstruction of Jerusalem after the exile and it's destruction by the Romans. Both of those are well-known historical facts independent of anything SDAs might believe. Kennedy was shot in Houston in 1961. This is a historical fact regardless of all those who believe that Nostradamus predicted his death. Christian Skeptic (talk) 02:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

But you wouldn't use a reference from Nostradamus to establish when Kennedy was shot, you would use a reference that is universally accepted. That is the point.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I haven't used prophecy to establish when Jesus was baptized. The date of Jesus baptism comes from Luke (which is not a prophecy but a narrative) that mentions the year of Tiberius that John began baptizing and Jesus baptized by John (i.e. 27 AD). It happens, however, that calculating the prophetic 483 years from 457 BC (the 7th year from the historical date of Artaxerxes beginning to reign) one also gets 27 BC. The prophecy doesn't establish the date of the baptism, rather the baptismal date establishes the prophecy. some may argue that Daniel wasn't written until the 2nd century BC., But that doesn't help. There were no calendars back then. An author in the 2nd century BC would not know how far back came the decree of Artaxerxes, neither would he know the year of the beginning of the ministry of the Messiah. Even the author of Luke would not know the date of Artaxerxes, because there was no common calendar by which to date old events such as we have today. The concordance of the timing of the prophecy with the events in the 1st century BC are impossible to account for but for God being the author of the prophecy. Trying to apply the prophecy of Daniel 9 to any other event, especially anything in the 2nd C. BC, is an exercise in futility. It cannot possibly approach the accuracy of that applyed to Jesus. Christian Skeptic (talk) 20:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There are so many layers of speculation in this that it is barely worth responding to. The fact that Josephus later was able to present historical records prior to Artaxerxes invalidates the claim that Luke could not have had access to such records. When the later Christian re-interpretation of Daniel 9 is removed, the chapter is not actually a Messianic prophecy at all, but rather, 'Messiah' (משיח, mashiyach) in Daniel 9:25-26 actually refers to Cyrus, in reference to the 'anointed one' at Isaiah 45:1, where the same Hebrew word is found. The re-appliction to Jesus was back-formed later.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The accuracy of historical dates is much better today than in those days. It is impossible for anyone to have faked these prophecies and faked "fulfillment" of the prophecies to make them come out with the accuracy they have. Jewish scholars over centuries have proposed many ideas to try to explain the Bible, but that doesn't mean they have truth in them. Christian Skeptic (talk) 22:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Using an SDA source to confirm that SDA hold certain beliefs sounds pretty good to me. (Aside from the fact that the beliefs are completely nutty). PiCo (talk) 08:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The primary concern with my tagging it as facts were the dates given which are in the SDA material but are not as far as I'm aware accepted by all secular scholars. JoshuaZ (talk) 19:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Were you tagging just that paragraph, or the entire section? The only date in the paragraph is 70AD for the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, which is the accepted date so far as I know. The mass of other dates elsewhere in the section tends to give me a headache - I think the whole section could be reduced by about half and made more comprehensible. PiCo (talk) 07:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I was tagging that these were "historical facts" in that the details especially the dates aren't agreed upon and seemed to be primarily the SDA chronology. There's no issue using the SDA's own sources for their chronology but then we need an independent source stating that those dates are correct. JoshuaZ (talk) 17:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I put links to other WP pages where dates for the reconstruction and destruction of Jerusalem are given. SDA's use commonly accepted historical dates for these events as found in just about any historical source. The computations shown in the illustrations are based upon commonly accepted dates for the beginning of the reigns of Artaxerxes and Tiberius (again see the WP links to confirm the dates). Even the distinction between civil and religious Jewish Calendars is linked to WP, it is not an SDA invention. Everything else is SDA interpretation sourced from SDA literature. Thus, there are non-SDA sources for all base historical dates in the section. If you have a problem with SDA interpretation, fine, but the base starting dates are long accepted dates for historical events. Christian Skeptic (talk) 17:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't see that there's any need for sections on SDA and Jehovah's Witnesses viewpoints - they're just subsets of Christian beliefs, and pretty marginal ones at that (both are tiny sects). Perhaps both should be reduced to a sentence each in the Christian section. PiCo (talk) 05:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

These sections have to do with historicist and dispensationalist interpretations. If you are going to drastically cut the historicist interpretation, then the dispensationalist interpretation needs to be cut just as much. The historicist interpretation was the primary interpretation of Daniel by nearly all Protestants up through the 19th century. Dispensationalist interpretation has grown in popularity since the mid-19th century to where it has become the majority view today. But to ignore the historicist interpretation would be to ignore or rewrite history. It's not up the the editors to rewrite history, but to present what is and was. Perhaps a separate page on the historicist interpretation (and another for the dispensationalist interpretation) of the 70 weeks is in order. Christian Skeptic (talk) 17:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

After a quick review of the article, I'm even more convinced that the Christian Views section is far too long - far, far longer than either the Jewish Views section (and Daniel is, after all, a Jewish book) or the Secular Views section (if that's what it's called). If you make your section too long, you risk losing readers - will they want to wade through all this? Have a go at reducing the whole Christian section to the same length as the Jewish section. At the very least, it'll be a useful exercise in condensing your argument. PiCo (talk) 06:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, the prophecies of Daniel have played a much larger place in Christianity than in Judaism. The entire Protestant movement was predicated on the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. One would expect much more from Christiany than Judaism on the topic. This is especially so since a ban was placed by rabbis warning Jewish people away from reading Daniel. Christian Skeptic (talk) 20:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the Protestant movement was predicated on the abuses and corruption of the early Renaissance Catholic Church, but that's not really to the point. I'm not arguing that the Christian section should be drastically curtailed itself, but that there's no need for separate SDA and Jehovah Witness sections, nor for the entire entry to be quite so long and detailed. PiCo (talk) 04:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Abuses and corruption were a part of it, but there was much more. It was recognized that these factors and others were due to apostasy from many Biblical truths as the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation predicted would happen by the Church causing it to be identified as the Antichrist. As for size, this article is only 48 kb long. The article about the Book of Daniel is 65 kb. And what's wrong with detail that is clear and easily readable and well illustrated. Also, there are separate JW sections in several of the other articles on Daniel's prophecies. Christian Skeptic (talk) 06:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Disputed clauses

I think that the disputed clauses should not have built in commentary, but rather a note/link to where a commentary/explanation can be found lower down in the article. (i.e. such as in the Jewish interpretation section below.) Otherwise, this could become a rather cumbersome section as all kinds of note may be added to explain various positions.

Just for the record, in vs. 24 I agree that it is Most holy Place. However, I go with The Anointed One or Messiah for the other verses. as you say, Messiah the Prince not a name but a title, or two titles actually. Some don't put much stock in the scholarship of the original translators of the Bible into English. But, I have no confidence in Modern Scholarship which is primarily atheistic and skeptical and based upon reinterpretation of the texts within Naturalism's "Higher Criticism" which is basically BS. I'll go with believers interpretation any day over unbelievers. Christian Skeptic (talk) 19:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

---

I have clarified 9:25, indicating that Hebrew punctuation isn't the issue. The Masoretic text is only making explicit the meaning present in the text, a punctuation not used by the translators of the KJV who arrived at the same meaning. I have therefore omitted the following sentence which doesn't deal with the substantive issue.

Since the Dead sea scrolls have no punctuation, Some Christians consider the insertion of punctuation here in the Masoretic text to be inaccurate.

--spin (talk) 09:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Original research

This is some original research, so I included it here. The LXX and MT differ in that the LXX uses the word 'temple' in vs 27; the MT uses 'overspreading'. But according to Gesesius כָּנָף can mean 'highest summit' of the temple - so the LXX was right in its' translation but it can also mean a shirt, skirt, surrounding, cornering...and I think this is close to the MT meaning and it reflects what happened in 70CE. So both authorities, the MT and LXX are respectable. Notpayingthepsychiatrist (talk) 21:39, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Establishing The 20th Year of Artaxerxes Reign

Overview

This discussion explores the evidence that tends to establish or qualify suggested dates for the 20th Year of Artaxerxes Reign. This is of importance as it tends to establish the beginning of the Seventy Weeks of Years as per Daniel Chapter 9, taken from a historical view.

I have laid out a outline which I hope my peers will find helpful. I hope you will freely enter your findings within the skeleton provided. It is my intention to add this as a section to an appropriate area of the main page in due course. Enjoy.

Evidence for 455 BC?

How long did Artaxerxes Longimanus rule?

Was it only for 41 years, or was it 51 years?

Evidence that Artaxerxes Longimanus ruled beyond his 41st year

(Catalogue of the Babylonian Tablets in the British Museum, Vol. VII: Tablets From Sippar 2, by E. Leichty and A. K. Grayson, 1987, p. 153; tablet designated B. M. 65494) which is a commercial document from Borshippa containing dates relating to Artaxerxes 50th year.

However some suggest that this contains a typo, and that it should say 40th year.

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Perhaps other more relevant tablets will be unearthed in due course. After all, Archaeology Odyssey states: “Experts estimate that somewhere between one and two million cuneiform tablets have already been excavated, and another 25,000 or so are found every year.” (Obviously not all relating to the subject of Artaxerxes or even Persia.)

This is a large workload for Cuneiform scholars. According to one estimate, “only about 1/10 of the extant cuneiform texts have been read even once in modern times.” (source?) You can see why they get only read once, cuneiform is soooo dry.

So perhaps there is further evidence, even a mass of it, yet awaiting translation. But that's a original synthesis so I won't repeat it.

Greek sources

Establishing The Death Date of Themistocles

The death of Themistocles seems pivotal in fixing the start of the reign of Artaxerxes Longimanus. What evidence is there to support the several dates suggested by commentators?

Persian sources

Was there really a coregency of Xerxes with Darius? Artaxerxes Longimanus was the successor of Xerxes, and a consideration of factors supporting or denying a coregency may solve some historical riddles.

Evidence for ? BC

could put evidence that strongly supports alternate years here.

El presidente sooty (talk) 22:18, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Context

I have cleaned up some of the POV in this section, but it is still unsourced and does not provide a good balance of views. Nowhere does the Bible specify that the Jews were in captivity for exactly 70 years. Also, no mention is made in the article of the 70 year period between 609 (fall of Harran to the Babylonians) and 539 (fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persians).--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Replaced JPS 1917 Edition with Judaica Press Translation

The JPS 1917 edition is not a true "Jewish translation."

The original 1917 JPS Tanach is oftne quoted and found all over the internet because the copyright is over so it is easy to find online. Because it was published by Jews (Jewish Publication Society) they assume that it is a Jewish translation, but it is nothing more than a slightly modified KJV / ERSV. Dr. Welty has fallen into the same error as many others who try to use it to support Chrstian arguments that it is an accurate "Jewish" translation from the Hebrew / Aramaic "source."

The Preface to the 1985 JPS admits that the 1917 edition is not in reality a Jewish translation:

   Quote: "With the rise of Protestantism in Europe, scholars within the movement set themselves the task of making the Bible available in the various vernaculars of the time.

   By 1526 the first parts of two notable translations began to appear: Martin Luther's in German and William Tyndale's in English. The latter, by way of several subsequent revisions, became the King James Version of 1611.

   The more modern English versions - such as The Holy *****ures by the American Rabbi Isaac Leeser (1855), the (British) Revised Version (1881-1885), the American Standard Version (1901), the Jewish Publication Society's The Holy Scriputes (1917), and the (American) Revised Standard Version (1952) - made extensive use of the King James." 

Leonard Greenspoon is an authority on bible translations speaks about the 1917 JPS in his article "Birth of a Bible" most "translations" into English were based on the KJV until as late as the 1960s and 1970s. There were one or two in the 19th century, but they weren't widely accepted and went out of print. From Greenspoon:

   Quote: the earliest English versions were either

   (a) a volume with KJV on one side, the Hebrew text facing, with a few Jewish exegetical notes at the bottom of the page; or

   (b) a listing of KJV passages that needed to be corrected either because they were erroneous or should be improved upon.

   There was a reluctance among Jews to part company with the KJV, even after Protestants began to experiment with entirely new translations rather than KJV revisions. This was the case as late as the JPS 1917 version, which is a rather light revision of the English Revised Version of 1885 (a direct descendant of KJV),although no reader of the JPS version would discern this on the basis of the title page or introduction. Such reluctance says a great deal about the Jewish communitys self-image as well as the image it wished to project for outsiders.

Therefore the 1917 JPS should not be used as a "Jewish" source.