Talk:Whiskey in the Jar

An infobox was requested for the 1972 Thin Lizzy recording of "Whiskey in the Jar" at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles/List_of_notable_songs/14.

Irish or gibberish?

Is "musha ring duma do damma da whack for the daddy 'ol whack for the daddy 'ol" Galeic/Irish or just a bunch of babble?

Just a bunch of nonsense. Like Toora loora loo. -R. fiend 06:15, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually, musha is an irish word that means rougly "If it be so." I think the rest is a little scattered by time and I have never heard it translated. I certainly don't have the knowledge to append it to the article. Audioweevil 22:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

This page has turned into a mess of lyrics lists, most of which are basically the same. Needs work cutting down on sloppiness and redundancy. -R. fiend 03:50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I would very much like to see someone put the lyrics on WikiSource rather than witness a continued argument over them here. WikiSource is really where they belong anyway; WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information, and Wikipedia is specifically not a place where song lyrics should be accumulated. WikiSource is even explicitly recommended on that page as a proper place for non-copyrighted song lyrics (of which the lyrics to Whiskey in the Jar are a prime example).--chris.lawson 02:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it needs some little changes

I think the name Metallica is very prominent in the article... maybe changing that a little?

Since it is not a Metallica song, but they just covered the song like so many others.

Khora 22:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree very strongly. As a player of traditional Irish music, I was a little insulted by the two very prominent boxes regarding Metallica. The Category box at the bottom (whatever it's referred to as) especially, as this article should belong in some sort of Irish music, Traditional music, or other music category, and definitely not in the "Metallica" category.

10:59 July 12 2007 (EDT)

and maybe remove the lars lilholt-comment. just beceause some random danish musician is singing the song, doesn't mean that he has to be mentioned in the very first part of the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.94.157.91 (talk) 21:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Can there also be a change to the line that reads "song originated in the 17th century, and (based on plot similarities) that John Gay's 1728" I feel that it should be changed from 17th to the 18th century in this line as 1728 is in the 18th century

thankyou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.239.12.77 (talk) 10:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Timing of the song

I really cannot judge the reference to the Irish "half pike", but one can just for instance check wikipedia to find out that "rapier" is a general term for a slender thrusting sword of the 16th and 17th centuries. Mkkls 14:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

name of origin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaro (false) far simply reffers to the container in which whiskey is stored for long periods of time.

The Highwaymen

The link for the band The Highwaymen in the lede redirects to a dab page in which two different groups are listed with the same name. Does anyone know which group recorded a version of this song? The link needs to be fixed to link to the correct band, obviously. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 17:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The Highwaymen (folk band) is the correct one. I fixed it.

JimCubb (talk) 19:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit war

Could someone outline the basis for the edit war currently going on here, apparently over the inclusion of the lyrics? Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:29, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Originally, I removed the lyrics because they are already available at WikiCommons, and the repetition seemed needless. The edit war began when anonymous fans of the Thin Lizzy/Metallica version insisted on reinserting the lyrics without explanation. Other editors became involved (as can be seen in the edit history), and the argument was raised that the lyrics might not be in the public domain. I cannot comment on that question---the fact that the original lyrics are on commons would indicate that they are well past any kind of copyright; the Thin Lizzy rewrite, though, is another matter. The anonymous editors have continued their campaign, simply reinserting the lyrics, as well as the old external links, without comment; in addition to this, they have posted personal attacks on the talk page. It seems clear that their intent is disruption, as such, it is no longer simply an edit war over content, it is a matter of stopping anons from vandalizing. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The lyrics are in the public domain and as such are not copyright protected. The differences between the two versions of the song clearly supports the inclusion of the lyrics from each version so that people unfamiliar with the subject matter can make the distinction between them. RepublicanJacobite has taken it upon himself to be a Wiki-Nazi and label all edits that do not personally appeal to him as vandalism, even if others think that the content may be important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.154.191.101 (talk • contribs) (21:22, 7 July 2008)

You have provided no rationale to believe the lyrics are in the public domain. In fact, you have provided no argument, no explanation, no reasoning whatsoever for your actions. Instead, you have reverted, again and again, in addition to engaging in personal attacks---like your "Wiki-Nazi" comment above, and your "faggot" comment on my talk page---in other words, you have been a disruptive presence. And, though you fail to acknowledge the fact in your rant above, I am not the only editor who has reverted you. I would also argue that your disruptive pattern has been recognized by administrators, hence the fact that you have been blocked more than once. Clearly, you cannot stand not getting your way, and have simply decided to be disruptive. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

RepublicanJacobite is the ultimate hypocrite. He jumps on me for my "personal attacks", yet he uses them himself. He says that I can't stand not getting my way, yet his Wiki-Nazi style tactics clearly show that it is he who acts like a big baby. He also fails to acknowledge in his rant above that I am not the only user who reverts his useless edits. I argue that not only is RepublicanJacobite a disruptive presence, he is also a waste of skin who should be put down before he procreates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.230.99.202 (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I am seeking outside help in order to resolve this dispute. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I have added my tuppence worth over there. I hope some helpful opinion will be forthcoming. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 01:33, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Another two cents via Wikiquette alerts. There seem to be two issues

1) Are the lyrics in the public domain?

The Thin Lizzy version: almost certainly not. Since they're changed from the trad version, that makes them a derivative work with separate copyright.

The trad version: yes, if you can find an old enough print source that is out of copyright. The Wikisource version contains no information as to whether it came from such a source.

2) Should they be quoted?

The Thin Lizzy version: only within "fair use" - and that usually means selective quoting for the purposes of analysis or comment, not a dump of the whole thing, and also within Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources.

The trad version: only within the Wikipedia:Don't include copies of primary sources.

In short, the WP:NPS guideline - "Avoid including entire texts of treaties, press releases, speeches or lengthy quotations, etc" - covers it. Let the article discuss the song, and hyperlink out to the full lyrics. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 01:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Intro

Per my view above, I've added to the intro a sourced quote of typical lyrics that I think is useful for identifying the song, but short enough to be fair use. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 00:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Rapaire etc

Judging from the mention of a rapier it is likely that the lyrics date back to at least the late eighteenth century. In at least one version, the rapier is replaced with a sabre; the reference to the rapier could have originally referred to a rapaire ("half-pike" in Irish) and the highwayman could have been a rapparee - Irish irregular soldiers and bandits of the 17th and 18th centuries.

Source? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 02:25, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Combination of rapier and pistol suggest 17th century

The Dubliners' version of the song has the highwayman armed with a "rapier" and a "pistol," which appears from the context of the song to be a single-shot, muzzle-loaded pistol of the type for which experienced users would carry "charges" (i.e., premeasured amounts of gunpowder tied up in wadding) they had fixed up ahead of time to facilitate quick reloading. The rapier was used in the 16th and 17th centuries, while the flintlock was used in the 17th and 18th centuries (though the more tempermental matchlock, less practical for a highwayman, was used earlier). Thus, the the Dubliners' version of the song appears to suggest a 17th century provenance. -- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 16:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC))

Thin Lizzy version: also traditional?

In one of the comments above, Gordonofcartoon stated that the Thin Lizzy lyrics were revised by the band.

Is this certain? We know that this song existed in many different versions in the mid-twentieth century. Is it possible that Thin Lizzy's version was taken word-for-word from one of these multiple versions?

The Metallica version and the U2 version have the exact same lyrics as the Thin Lizzy version, but that doesn't answer the question, since they were probably just repeating the TL version without realizing that there were multiple versions available. — Lawrence King ^(talk) 04:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Kilmagenny Mountain

Folk music lyrics being amendable is the tradition, so we have to deal with it. As to the locale of this song, the songbook, Folksongs & Ballads Popular in Ireland, Vol. I, Loesberg, John, Ossian Press, (Cork, Rep. of Ireland, 1979), p. 53, gives the locale as "Kilmagenny Mountain". Kilmagenny Mountain is located about five or ten miles south of Kilkenny city in the county of the same name. I feel this is the correct lyric, if such there be, to this song, due to other references to Kilkenny within other verses of many versions of the song. "Gilgarry", "Kilgarry" or other similar variants are garblings of the Kilmagenny name, as there are no such mountains by name in Ireland. "Cork and Kerry Mountains" is probably a variant promoted by singers living in those counties, but it would not explain the references to "go roving in Kilkenny" found in later verses of the song, although there are references to both Cork and Killearny, Co. Kerry, in the song regarding the stationing of the brother in the Army. My view of these lyrics will no doubt prove unsatisfactory to rogue supporters of Mettalica, Thin Lizzy, the Limeliters, or others, but I feel Loesberg's lyrics make the most sense, and that the singer who is supposed to be singing this song had his home (and crime scene) in southern County Kilkenny. Daniel Sparkman (talk) 23:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I was taught the song by my grandfather, 93, who lives in Aghada, Country Cork, Ireland, and his version goes like this: As I was going o'er the Cork and Kerry mountains, I came upon Cp'n Farrel and his money he was a'countin' So first I produc'd my rapier and then I produc'd my pistol, And said, "Stand 'n deliver fer ye are a grea' deceiver"

I agree that there may well be regional differences. If you speak gaelic then you're probably well aware that if you even go 50 miles away the accent is so different as to make it virtually unintelligable, and that's despite the attempts to standardise it in schools.

I've had some arguments from people who say it's just plain illogical to draw your rapier first, but given the period (anywhere from 18th to 19th century) it would probably have been far more logical to draw a reliable melee weapon before drawing a highly unreliable and inaccurate one-shot pistol. The version my grandfather taught me is the only one I've seen where the drawing of the rapier is put ahead of the pistol, and in my opinion lends considerable weight to its authenticity, whereas I suspect that the other versions may have been revised as time went on to reflect the increased accuracy and ease of use of pistols and other inaccuracies may have crept in.

The version sung in Cork contains no referencing to going roving in Kilkenney, but rather to going roving in Kilarney, which is in the heart of Kerry and seems much more consistent with the rest of the song.

Either way it's a great song and it's not worth getting hung up on the details, although the song does lose a lot when sung by someone without a proper Irish accent, and the rhythm and meter suffer considerable.

Dubliners' lyrics

The Dubliners' lyrics are given here as the Cork and Kerry mountains and yet in several renditions of them performing,it begins with the 'far-famed Kerry mountains.'Did they use both versions or should the lyrics given be altered? Lemon martini (talk) 02:06, 6 February 2010 (UTC)