Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Sven70

Help needed

As some of you have already stated, it is difficult to understand Sven70 in regard to his shorthand, however - I am in the process of transliterating/translating (whichever is correct) his response - I asked an admin to link it on the RFC, which he has done - but for those of you who've not seen it (also please bear in mind it's incomplete at the moment) I am working on turning his response into readable work. It's not guaranteed accurate by any means, but I'm getting an idea of his comments - please refer to this link in order to read some of what I'm getting. Don't, whatever you do, take it as gospel, I'm only facilitating a means to an end right now! If anyone else can work it out, please help to finish it. BarkingFish ^{Talk to me} | ^{My contributions} 12:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Former username

As an outside observer: If Sven has RSI, why on earth was he using a kanji username? Those require plenty more keystrokes to generate in the first place, between the IME swap for input, phonetics, scrolling through characters, etc. I understand that it only necessarily has to be done once, but this is a chronic condition we're talking about here.

Also, if he can write an entire paragraph of shorthand, and can write a more or less legible user page, why can't he just write shorter yet properly written statements? If it's really so bad that single keystrokes make a difference, then he probably shouldn't be using the keyboard to edit Wikipedia, considering that it's a nonessential activity. Moreover, he came to WP having had said condition, and has been here since December 2008, and although he only has 517 edits, close to half are in places other than articles.

If it's really not so bad (which would seem to be the case), then it's become his crutch for why he can't follow rules, and he should be blocked. A disability is not something that comes and goes, and something is not adding up here. Much as I generally focus on content and not the editor, exactly when does one have time to do three advanced degrees (two in medicine) and learn six languages while living in multiple countries and working in cancer research (all of which he apparently stopped doing by the age of 38)? There are often people still in residency at 30. Something is suspect about this editor. MSJapan (talk) 06:23, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He has RSI, trust me. There's no conspiracy. Or is there?! Xavexgoem (talk) 06:42, 17 August 2010 (UTC) No, there isn't :-p[reply]

I didn't claim conspiracy, but rather overstatement in a few different areas. The problem remains that if his RSI is so bad that he has to type in shorthand, that maybe this isn't the best outlet for him, regardless of the rules. If it isn't all that bad, then he needs to stop claiming discrimination because of it as an excuse for his behavior, and start communicating normally to boot. MSJapan (talk) 12:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it so much trouble to get that thumb twitching and give us spaces between words? Tony (talk) 04:35, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

itypw/mypinkis'nukl+sp-bar=hardst1[ucanput'mthertho,ilprufread-----Please note, I have [[Repetitive Strain Injury]] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 14:31, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Come on guys, even I'm starting to realise it's not THAT difficult to read. If I'm understanding you correctly, Sven70, you're saying " I type with my pinkies and knuckles, and spacebar is the hardest one - you can put them there though, i'll proof read.". BarkingFish ^{Talk to me} | ^{My contributions} 00:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

y,+= pinkies' knuckles[specfcly.PIPjoint-----Please note, I have [[Repetitive Strain Injury]] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 14:09, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of WP editors do not read (or therefore understand) "shorthand". Once again, I cannot comprehend your above post, Sven70. I know it's not vandalism; but it's also beyond "difficult to understand". This is getting a little weird, and it probably shouldn't continue much longer... Doc9871 (talk) 14:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sven's signature contains alternative strategies for contacting him if one is unable to deal with his writing style. For my part, I've found that it's fairly easy to decipher Sven's posts even without specialist understanding, and I remain appalled at the rank ignorance and casual intolerance directed at him for his recognised disability. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 21:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also point out that on the flipside, if Sven is in such bad shape that he can only use the knuckles of his pinkies to type, we're facilitating and promoting a harmful activity. Moreover, if you want to get picky, I've got a "recognized disability", too; while it doesn't affect my typing, I don't use it as an excuse for not doing things like they should be done, or as an excuse not to follow rules. "rank ignorance" and "casual intolerance" are just rhetorical garbage; if you really think that not willing to make behavioral exceptions based on a condition is ignorant and intolerant, you should also think that allowing someone with a condition to be held to a lesser standard because of that condition is also ignorant, intolerant, and demeaning to that person (especially when they are otherwise capable of meeting the standard) and that's basically both sides of the argument. So, if you want to take an emotional position on a rational issue, you might want to rethink what you are going to say just a bit. MSJapan (talk) 23:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, no, that's not a logical argument at all. I am not making a "behavioural exception" for Sven; the problems presented in the RfC regarding such things as personal attacks and forum shopping are perfectly valid, but those are the only "behavioural problems" presented here. The simple issue of Sven using shorthand on talk page posts (with an open offer to contact him on two different media if his meaning isn't clear) is in absolutely no way a "behavioural problem"; it's a physical problem. As for the "lesser standard", we allow editors who have only an intermediate (or worse) grasp of the English language to operate on en-WP: this hardly as severe a situation as that. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 01:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's a problem caused by behavior caused by a physical problem, just as those who have a poor grasp of English pose a problem caused by behavior caused by a linguistic problem, and vandal pose a problem caused by behavior caused by a psychological problem. If the end result is a problem (which is borderline here - I personally would find it difficult to wade through paragraphs of Sven's shorthand in an extensive policy or content debate, but I don't find it to be utterly incomprehensible), then it needs to be dealt with, even if the solution is ultimately not to Sven's liking (although I very much hope that a solution that is to Sven's liking can be found, The Rhymesmith (talk) 08:05, 22 August 2010

There is no problem here, at least so far as general communication with Sven goes. The forum-shopping and user page attacks highlighted in this RfC are orthogonal to his general conduct in discussions, which is not disruptive. On the other hand, some of the treatment Sven gets due to it is repugnant, and that does need to be addressed on the grounds that it hurts the community as a whole to allow its members to be insulted. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 09:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Naturally, I look at this in terms of the evidence presented in the RfC, meaning that everything I see is through the lens of his worst and most incomprehensible behaviors. That being said, people's 'insults' to Sven are largely a function of their inability to deal with him, and here WP:COMPETENCE applies. The Rhymesmith (talk) 17:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sven has, other than the particular issues highlighted in this RfC, managed to successfully engage in collaborative editing on this project for some time now. I rather think that it is those editors who for whatever reason are unable to see past Sven's disability who demonstrate an insufficient grasp of Wikipedia's social requirements to be productive editors here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 21:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let me offer an example which has the same logical structure as your argument. Paranoid schizophrenics are not responsible for violent actions they commit. I am appalled at the rank ignorance and casual intolerance directed at them for their recognized disability. We do not hold paranoid schizophrenics responsible for their actions in the same sense as a fully volitional individual, but we do seek to inhibit damaging behaviors, just as we do not treat Sven as an outright vandal, but nevertheless chafe at the impositions of his shorthand and other actions. (Please do not charge me with comparing Sven to a paranoid schizophrenic, incidentally - it was the first analogue that came to mind.) While the community's repudiation of him has probably caused some of his disruptiveness, if the net contribution to Wikipedia of Sven'e editing and the reactions of other editors is negative, something needs to change, even if the solution is inequitable to Sven. That being said, Dragon or Windows Speech Recognition would more easily solve this. The Rhymesmith (talk) 01:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't want your crass and offensive equivocations to be held against you, then consider choosing better ones. Given that there are no parallels between the example you've chosen and the subject at hand, there is no argument to be considered here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 01:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Equivocation? Do you know the meaning of the word? Crass? I construe that as an insult to paranoid schizophrenics (and I do not say that glibly - I am making a logical connection dealing with the assignation of responsibility in isomorphic cases, whereas you are demeaning schizophrenics by crassly assuming that my example is pejorative.) My argument is perfectly valid in logical terms - I merely wished to forestall the inevitable accusations of those who do not understand structural comparisons and rush headlong to make fools of themselves. I did not compare, and am not comparing, Sven to a paranoid schizophrenic (at least not in the sense of suggesting that there's something wrong with his mind). The parallel is reasonably simple; I don't quite know how to make it clearer.

In cases of paranoid schizophrenia, an individual is not held responsible for their actions, but, nonetheless, if their actions damage the general public, their actions must be stopped, or channeled, so as to ensure public safety.

In cases of RSI, an individual is not held responsible for his or her deficiencies in communication, but, nonetheless, if their actions damage Wikipedia in aggregate, their actions must be stopped, or channeled, so as to ensure that Wikipedia continues to improve.

You can replace the example with paranoid schizophrenia with a host of unrelated and logically equivalent examples if you can't quite manage to understand the isomorphism of the two statements without doing so. The Rhymesmith (talk) 07:53, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where I'm from, comparing physical to mental illness is typically not considered polite. But ignoring that, the point remains that Sven's general talk page conduct is not disruptive. On the other hand, his being continually insulted on the basis of his RSI on grounds such as a) that he's faking it, b) that RSI doesn't exist or that c) his RSI couldn't possibly prevent him from communicating more naturally (all of which he's been subject to in the last week by editors that you'd think would know better) is something that should be dealt with. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 09:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, wherever you're from needlessly stigmatizes mental illness as somehow more despicable than physical illness, which is tragic. Some of Sven's conduct has unarguably been disruptive, and his talk page conduct can be said to be disruptive in that his expositions disrupt discussion, being unintelligible to many (although not all). I have no idea of whether or not he does nor does not have RSI (nor does it matter, as far as I'm concerned, although I'm inclined to believe it, given that the alternative would entail the strangest practical joke I've seen on WP), but his method of communication is clearly causing problems for other editors, and the onus is not necessarily on the other editors to resolve that situation (although they should treat Sven civilly, of course.) ~~My recommendation is, as before, speech recognition software. ~~The Rhymesmith (talk) 17:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)~~~~[reply]

I see that you've just recommended that Sven not only spend large amounts of money on speech recognition software, but also on a new computer to run it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 21:47, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend that Sven do what it takes to contribute in a fashion akin to that of other editors, if his communications have become a problem (as they have). Sven has no unique right to edit Wikipedia. The Rhymesmith (talk) 02:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~sum ex.~~
apartheid"..for him to entirely eschew the discussion pages, as has been mentioned in the Beer Parlour. If, and only if, I can be reasonably convinced that pages of shorthand are not going to appear in the Beer Parlour and that he isn't going to email every admin he's previously harassed (and I have seen the emails) I might consider temporarily unblocking him as a grace period to see if things have really changed. But I am not exactly about to hold my breath. --Neskaya kanetsv?"{myemail=unblokdther btw(by08:33, 4 June 2010 Bogorm (Talk | contribs),NUNensuedfromesins(blowinofsteamafteINDEFBLOK4SILVERBULITamunitngenstmePOST HOC=pervers}[1]
ridicul"I hate to say this, but I've always consider Sven70 a joke. Why would anyone use a 'shorthand' that involves typing random characters in between the real characters, whilst randomly hitting the caps lock in the middle of words. Sven has never answered this, presumably because it is just a joke. Users bend over backwards to by nice to him, and he insults them and gets blocked for life. Where's the controversy here? Mglovesfun (talk) 09:30, 13 May 2010 (UTC)"{cfurthedifwheriDIDxplain}[2]

talkpgBLANKIN[3]{"ntimidating behaviour/harassment"<HU=?}>DELETINcmnts[nutin2hide?]~as"[repeatdly!>falaces/sofist'resonin'>]JUSRITE EVRYTHINOUT!--Dan Polansky <ilositBAITIN""Your mindless, disrespectful, intolerant, senseless and logicless gobbledygook is not welcome on my talk page--Wiktionary is a big place, go play somewhere else, oh so full-of-yourself brat, with the community's blessing, of course; hounding disgrace you are.--史凡; 08:38, 9 October 2009".igetblokd

v.1.edits:# 09:17, 29 October 2008 (diff | hist) 今 ‎ (→Han character)
09:13, 29 October 2008 (diff | hist) 叨 ‎ (→Hanzi)

09:01, 29 October 2008 (diff | hist) 甘 ‎ (→Han character)

08:59, 29 October 2008 (diff | hist) 甲 ‎ (→Han character)

08:56, 29 October 2008 (diff | hist) 甘 ‎ (→Han character)

07:34, 25 October 2008 (diff | hist) put one's money where one's mouth is ‎ (→Verb) [4]>iget11:15, 30 October 2008 SemperBlotto (Talk | contribs) blocked Sven70 (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled, e-mail blocked) ‎ (Disruptive edits: multiple)[5]<--WizardOfOz: "wher=DISRUPTN?"[idunlikdadwordbynow,funyhu?
vindictivns:20:36, 15 October 2009 EncycloPetey (Talk | contribs) changed block settings for 史凡 (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of infinite (account creation disabled) ‎ (Intimidating behaviour/harassment: repeat offender)>EncycloPetey went2Seicer214:31, 25 December 2008 Seicer (talk | contribs) blocked Sven70 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (Disruptive editing)<iwasonWP:ACESIBILITY+ANI[but'Disruptive 'hu?

furthe[6][7][8][9][10][11][12]
~~=SAMPLofwotiendurd>wmfnoz[cx.goem-c.bass convo,buDUNCAR!~~
-----Please note, I have [[Repetitive Strain Injury]] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 14:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~dis=yDISABL.N.BOARD=neded![praps~partofETNIC~~

>P.S. If Sven70 can type one letter correction on his keyboard, he can take extra time to type all the characters correctly. It’s just that simple. Stephen Hawking gives lengthy lectures via his voice synthesizer in crowded auditoriums and prepares the lectures in advance by typing it word by word and character by character using an eye-driven palette. It is an exceedingly process. In Sven’s response, above, I see a huge swath of nonsense that reads like wmfDUNCAR]~BRAINWASHEDIDOLISIN[gods=wmfppl,UNfalibl dey r]medcab;wmfbegsMILIONSOFDO$2ALOWBLATNTDICRIMINATN[cfurthesuminflamatory.

That post has been up there for days now, and Sven70 has made forty or more posts to Wikipedia since, and two of them were to this page. Yet Sven70 seems quite satisfied feeling absolved of the requirement to simply proofread his posts [IFI'V2brekalrulzCOSOFMYDISABILITY,SOBE IT+OTHEDISABLD HERNED2LEARNasertivns+solidarity[BUTNO,overadaptin2anABUSIV'COMUNITY]INSTEDOFHAVINMEFENDIN4M ONMYOWNBYAFORSD-UPONMEDIUMDAD=POISON2MYDISABILTY-VOICE-MSG ONTALKPGS!![SV-24.8]and, seeing such gibberish, go back, select the nonsense portion, delete it, and hit save again. Every bit of his behavior convinces me this is about attention-getting efforts. If I had a disability where I invested loads of extra time to craft nice looking posts, I’d feel slandered by association over the antics Sven70 has exhibited as of late. Greg L ([[User talk:Greg L|talk]"-----Please note, I have [[Repetitive Strain Injury]] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 02:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]