Talk:Creation myth

Important notice: The article title adheres to the Neutral Point of View policy and the Words to Avoid guideline. Furthermore, it reflects the consensus among editors here and has been discussed several times in the past. Before starting another discussion about the article title, please consult the above policy and guideline, and read through the archives to see if your concern has already been addressed.

Using the word Myth is NOT NPOV

":This has been argued to death; please review previous discussion and the archives. Let's not start flogging that horse again. " Too bad.

I don't have a dog in this race; I'm not religious and am pretty hard to offend anyway. Still, I don't see what harm would come from renaming the article to 'Religious accounts of Creation', or 'Creation (religion)' or some such thing. Is there a reason that 'Creation myth' is a better title for the article than these? Bdrasin (talk) 22:17, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll add to this that Wikipedia itself uses "myth" to mean a type of ahistorical fiction; for example the article Christ myth theory. 'Myth' isn't a precise synonym of 'fiction' but certainly myths are a subset of fictions; otherwise the title of that article is nonsense because Christ would be a myth weather historical or not. There actually is a case to be made that the religious accounts of creation are objectively false according to RS and therefore it is NPOV to describe them as fiction, but no one seems to want to argue this way.Bdrasin (talk) 14:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Well I am sorry but I argue the word Myth is very biased, the word "Account" is more appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Lewison (talk • contribs) 01:46, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

From Merriam-Webster:

myth n. 1 a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : parable, allegory 2 a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society

This has been discussed ad nauseam. In the context of this article's topic, the word "myth" is correct. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 03:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree and what's more important so does Mr Collins in his concise dictionary "a story about superhuman beings of an earlier age, usually of how natural phenomena, social customs etc came into being". Abtract (talk) 07:44, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be some dispute as to whether "creation myth" is a neutral term.

I googled it, and here's what I read at Amazon about the first book that came up in my serch:

• Evolution and Religious Creation Myths seeks to educate and arm the public on the differences between myth and science, fiction and theory.

It seems the word "myth" connotes "fiction", while "theory" refers to a finding of science. I don't see, therefore, how myth could mean anything other than false, made up nonsense. --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:29, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

That's because you're preferentially putting more stock in a definition you already agree with, above that of any of the others available defining a 'Creation Myth' as a supernatural explanation of creation, absent any judgement of truth or falsehood, perfectly neutral. --King Öomie 15:37, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

And you're also setting up a counter-argument yourself, using the colloquial definition of 'myth' alongside the technical definition of 'theory'. The colloquial definition of 'theory' isn't far from that of 'hypothesis'- unproven, and laughable to accept at face value. "It's just a theory!" --King Öomie 15:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

There may be an argument for renaming articles with titles such as Enûma Eliš - Enûma Eliš creation myth. But there is no reason at all to change the title of this one. Creation myths are a real life category - offensive to some or not we're not reinventing the English language here at wikipedia. The extreme oversensitivity about using this term in this article is absolutely 100% unjustifiable. Professor marginalia (talk) 15:44, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't own any stock in either viewpoint; I'm a longtime fan of NPOV. I'm just going along with what Evolution and Religious Creation Myths says: i.e., that there are differences between myth and science just as there are differences between fiction and theory. But the authors of that book also argue that evolution and creationism are not both valid theories and that they don't deserve equal attention.

I wouldn't want our use of myth in an article title to make the reader think that every "myth" is likely to be a "fiction". --Uncle Ed (talk) 15:59, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The argument then is to those in the real world that termed this category of stories "creation myths". It's probably been the proper usage for couple thousand years beginning with the Greeks-and it's certainly the name given in the overwhelming majority of reliable sources today.Professor marginalia (talk) 16:12, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Apparently contributors feel a need to distinguish between (A) scientific cosmology, i.e., scientific theories of creation (cosmogony) and (B) religious cosmology. I'm sure we can come up with terminology that suits all parties. --Uncle Ed (talk) 16:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure Mr. Lurquin will be surprised to learn his text has become the leading authority on religious scholarship. Again, the term Creation Myth does not assign truth or falsehood to the story it represents. It merely states that a group of people believe/believed that it is/was literally how we/the earth/the universe came to be. --King Öomie 17:34, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Side note-not all "creation myths" involve supernatural beings or forces either. The introduction to this article is terrible, imho, but I'm currently pulling together a body of good sources to use there. Many of the best known of the creation myths come from peoples who had no concept of separate realms between nature and supernature. Their creation myths describe beginnings initiated and guided by what they viewed as natural or "innate" properties and forces. Professor marginalia (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I disagree these words have loaded meaning, Myth in language might as well mean fiction. And Supernatural sounds like something on the X-files. Esp the abbreviated for of Myth. If there is so much disagreement CHANGE IT. isn't that how Wikipedia works. clearly it is a problematic word.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 17:06, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

VERY PROBLEMATIC. In no way is it neutral, nor can it be when the most prominent meaning of "myth" is fiction, hence untrue fantasy. Do a Google search on "myth" on any major newspaper in English. There will be many hits, and I have yet to find even one that implies truth. Why do these writers and editors use "myth" so often in their headlines and titles? It's straightforward when one glances at the article. The editor or writer is claiming something this being misrepresented or falsified, hence is a myth. They don't have to worry about any technical understanding of myth occurring to even a single reader.

In no way is the definition "myth" not neutral. Seeing how the con provides no counter definition and the only definition within this conversation derives from the Merriam-Webster, we should use that definition. Even if popular culture (X-files) or google may offer a contradictory definition, you fail to provide any warrants why that definition should be used. In fact, It would seem as if these definitions fashioned by popular belief or google were "supposed" to be incorrect. "A usually traditional story..." is not something that MUST be fiction, "A popular belief or tradition" is not something that MUST be untrue. To put this in perspective, all Abraham religions can be placed into these general parameters but nothing tells us that they are fiction. Remember that the purpose of wikipedia should be to educate people in this case, end the misconception that myth means fiction. The fact that popular belief tells people that myths are anything but real should give us more incentive to make the line between such definitions bolder. 216.101.109.137 (talk) 02:39, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

LONDON TIMES:

• January 3, 2010 "What an anti-climax: G-spot is a myth"
• January 2, 2010 "Over 7000 women a year get false breast cancer alert. We debunk the myth behind the headlines...."
• April 20, 2010 "Exhibition explores the myths behind artist Paul Gauguin. They will depict a strikingly modern artist: a monstrous, exploitative, lying self-publicist and instead focus on “the tendency towards myth-making, in his work and his presentation of himself”.

L.A. TIMES: April 5, 2010. "Myth-busting polls: Tea Party members are average Americans, 41% are Democrats, independents." "It has nothing to do with the myth of left and right. It has to do with democracy versus corporatocracy (formerly known as plutocracy)." ...and the list goes on and on this way. Absolutely no one is going to FIRST think of "Symbolic narrative of the creation and organization of the world as understood in a particular tradition" when they see "Genesis" and "Myth" together in the same phrase. It defies reasonable expectation, particularly in view of the fact that there are many who believe Genesis or even the whole Bible is "a fictitious narrative presented as historical but without any basis of fact"─which was, by the way, a recent SAT's "correct answer" for the definition of "myth." ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 21:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Because the first thing I think of when I think "Wikipedia" is "Atheist plot". Well, after "Illuminati". --King Öomie 21:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

The most prominent meaning of "creation myth" is not "untrue fantasy". (This article hasn't done a good job of saying what it does mean yet, but I've got it in the queue to make improvements in that area.) The long and short of it is this: it's a real topic, well known and well covered from a variety of domains, from children's books, ancient history, anthropology, mythography, classical scholarship-themes from myth also frequently appear in art, sculpture, cinema and architecture, and real encyclopedias do not reinvent, they describe. Encyclopedias such as Britannica and Grolier do it, and wikipedia does too. Professor marginalia (talk) 05:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

For the love of...Creation Myth is neutral. It's an accepted and official scolarly term used to describe a specific type of story found in various cultures. Each entry on this list meets the criteria to be described as such. Using the term is not a violation of NPOV standards, avoiding it simply to defend people's sensibilities would, however, be such a violation. And let's be honest here, that is why the change is being proposed as noted by the very phrasing of the arguments for change, including "Other people might not be aware that myth doesn't imply falsehood in this context" and the repeated reference to the creation, strongly indicating that the objection is not so much to the term (which again is an official scholarly term for these kinds of stories, applied to those of both modern and past religions) as it is the fact that their belief is being grouped with them. The request to change it is as ludicrous as suggesting that the title of Atomic Theory be changed because the colloquial usage of "Theory" denotes a uncertainty. The request doesn't work at all. 74.240.68.101 (talk) 15:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem is there is a problem. How do we know? because look at the energy going into this debate. Solution: Work on a solution. U have a point, I have a point. But they are pointing in opposite directions. Myth is a problem, as the above writer says. Language changes, and technical terms and terms in common usage do not always marry up. look what happened to feeling gay.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 15:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Your point is bunk. Let me put it this way, there was a lot of time and energy put into the Galileo Affair, that doesn't mean that there was good cause for labelling heliocentrism heretical. A lot of time and effort is put into holocaust denial and claiming that the moon landing was a hoax, that doesn't mean that there's any validity in either claim. What matters here are the facts. And the fact of the matter is that at the end of the day the usage of the phrase "Creation Myth" is not a POV issue because that's the term used in scholarly discourse, and in fact the insistence that it should be viewed as such because so-and-so doesn't like seeing the word anywhere near their own belief is far more of a POV issue as it insists that we ignore the official terminology purely for the sake of appeasing certain individuals (read: Favoring a point of view to the extent that we ignore facts). The term "Creation Myth" is accurate for the subject matter, and that's the long and short of it and the only thing that matters in encylclopedic entries. 74.240.68.171 (talk) 19:37, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Well said. The term is accurate, anything else is almost certainly going to be pov pandering to various interests.

So the scholarly discourse out weights the religious discourse? Because i think most humans subscribe to it not being a myth. Either way what you are saying is that as long as a minority of scholars (clearly not religious scholars) use the term it is valid. Finito. The "discovery" myth i.e. Columbus discovered the Americas is still used in most school systems around the world. SO i guess we just go with the majority on that one to. republish a lie because some Oxford scholar and friends use the word. Wikipedia NPOV rules apply outside of what so-called scholars say. Myth in english means fiction. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 16:20, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Scholarly discourse does outweigh colloquial discourse. That's the term they overwhelmingly use for this and thus the most accurate. Your inability to understand how the term is used means less than nothing, especially considering that the facts that a) that in scholarly discourse the term is used to describe the story type rather than it's validty and b) you've acknowledged as much in the history of the discussion and then started arguing that the article be renamed because of the colloqual usage of the word "myth". Again, what you're suggesting is akin to renaming Atomic Theory because the colloquialization of "theory" denotes far more uncertainty than is attributable to the model. You don't like it? Deal with it. The reality of the situation is that the term Creation Myth is used to describe the type of story, not the validity thereof. Your lack of research into the matter does not change this fact, nor does your dislike of the term 'myth' have any bearing whatsoever on it. Here's a piece of advice: Look up how scholars use the term myth before you do anything else. This would be a good place to start. 74.240.68.95 (talk) 20:23, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

My research shows that scholars of religion are far more numerous than your so-called scholars. unless scholar means secular scientific. Prove the point with sources showing that scholars (in the broad sense of the word) agree that it is myth. Encarta has rules, wiki has rules. If Encarta trends are valid then delete the page and just redirect to the likes of Encarta. Consensus over rules your claims of weight. I wonder if I look at all the religious schools in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity if the word Myth is used to describe creation. Now all of these schools have scholars. Because I have just glanced at the Iranian school for religious studies and I didnt see the term Myth in use. So unless you want to change the definition of scholars you have home work to do. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 20:55, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

You and I both know that you've done no such research. What you're referring to here is your presumption that the world agrees with you when the actuality is that you have done little to nothing to learn about the subject matter, as is overwhelmingly evident by your ignorance on how the term "myth" is used by religious scholars, as explained in the link above, in the Encyclopedia Britanica link in the introduction of the page we're discussing, repeatedly cited multiple times on the page about Mythology from multiple sources there, though if you'd prefer more, I could also cite the introduction here and this right here. Incidentally, I am using the term scholars correctly. The difference between your usage of the term and mine is that I refer to theologians, who use the term myth without the ire or presumption you're attributing to it. 74.240.68.95 (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

74.240.68.95: I can understand why you choose to remain an anynomous IP user. That's apparently so you can hide in a cowardly manner and be rude, crude, and ignore any intelligent discussion of User:Halaqah's attempt at logical and informed discourse. Disappointing from someone supposedly intelligent, scholarly and civil!─AFA Prof01 (talk) 21:00, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

So wait, let me get this straight...all of the edits attributed to me are on this page, over three responses (well, four including this one) over a period of less than 24 hours and because I dared to say that Halaqah was arguing a point based on his own ignorance of a term's usage, you declare that I am rude, crude and don't have an account because I'm a coward (which honestly makes no sense as so long as I sign an edit I'm ostensibly just as open to public criticism) instead of adopting the more rational and actually supportable belief that I lack an account because I don't do a lot of wiki-editing? Incidentally, while I'll fully admit to being prone to bluntness, how you managed to get "crude" in that personal attack is beyond me (with rude additionally being subjective, though far easier to understand where you're coming from). Frankly, after a quick review of your history I'm rather distressed that you're so quick to jump to conclusions. 74.240.68.95 (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment This is a completely unproductive conversation and someone should put it in an archive so no one has to be subjected to it anymore. Lexically "myth" is a homonym. Like any homonym, or indeed any word in actuality, meaning is dependent on context. There is absolutely no reason to believe that people are reading this entry and assuming that it covers "untrue stories about creation" as opposed to "sacred stories about creation." Anyone who does so fails basic English reading comprehension and I'm sorry but we can't do anything about that. Might someone who has not encountered mythology yet read the title only and wonder if it isn't about "untrue stories about creation"? I suppose that is a distinct possibility but as an encyclopedia our job is to help them learn what "creation myths" actually are. I will also note that none of Afaprof's examples above actually utilize the term "creation myth". And yes I'm sure there are some hard core atheists who have published books or articles in which "creation myth" is utilized in a way to also mean "untrue" but let's face it those examples make up 0.0001% of usages in mass culture. When someone does encounter the term "creation myth", as they will pretty much anytime this general subject matter is broached they should be able to turn to an encyclopedia to read more about it. This title is in line with common use across social fields -- the media, scholarship, everyday speech, etc. There is NO proof to the contrary. Please do us all a favor stop this silliness. It is this type of absurdity that makes otherwise neutral editors weary about supporting a different title at Genesis creation myth where common use actually warrants one. You all are doing those types of discussions a huge disservice and what you suggest for this entry is completely unencyclopedic. Please give it a rest.Griswaldo (talk) 12:22, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

The topic would be better served if you would be CIVIL and contribute to the debate or stay out of it. and use proper indents to address the issues at hand. Silly is not defined as "what you do not agree with". Edit the topic and not the editors.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 12:40, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing uncivil about what I said and I have not attacked anyone. This discussion is not helping the content of this entry in the least. If you want to have a serious conversation about the title bring in some real evidence from scholarship, mass culture etc. None exists on this talk page. The use of "creation myth" in any of those contexts is entirely consistent with this title. The presentation of this type of content in any of those contexts is also consistent with this title, with a few minor exceptions -- see for instance the discussion at Genesis creation myth. However those specific exceptions should be dealt with on a case by case basis. My very point here is that ironically your arguments here hurt even those specific cases because of the atmosphere of distrust they drum up. People have a hard time believing that genuine arguments based on policies and guidelines are being made as opposed to just "I don't like that phrase personally". I will not answer you again. I suggest, once more that you find something to back up your argument or stop making it. Best regards.Griswaldo (talk) 12:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Halqh, instead of choosing a random number of spaces to indent your comments, use one more colon than the comment you're replying to. --King Öomie 13:18, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Anyone that seriously thinks myth is a pejorative term needs to go read some Joseph Campbell and get an education. Torchiest (talk | contribs) 13:21, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

It can only be pejorative in contexts where people are obsessed with the truth value of stories. There certainly are people who use it specifically to mean "untrue" in relation to religious stories. Everyone isn't Joseph Campbell. But those people are in the vast minority, at least in the real world. One of the problems here, unfortunately, is that people on both sides of "truth value of (religious) stories" argument are uncommonly many in contexts like Wikipedia. They feed off of each other as well. What you get is a hostile environment in which rational discussion based on sound research is drowned out by ideological defensiveness. Personally I wish these people would find their way back to chat rooms and blogs, where their types of argument belong.Griswaldo (talk) 13:38, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Both the use of the word myth in its original meaning and with the meaning that its untrue is appropriate for Wikipedia IMO. Wikipedia should not be the place for people to spread their misinformed views about the origins of this planet. Let me quote Larry David : "I wasnt making fun of his religion, and even if I was, so what, you know, its a comedy. Religion should be made fun of, its quite ridiculous, isnt it? Just think how people spend their lives; they have no idea, they go around as if this is a fact. Its so insane, you know. If I really believed in this I'd keep it to myself."Wims (talk) 16:51, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

This is not only incorrect, but unhelpful. The purpose of this article is not to mock religion, and you inflame the (misplaced) anger of its detractors by claiming that it is. --King Öomie 17:47, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The base of this problem is that Wikipedia should not be putting politeness and political correctness above truth. For example, would you describe Thor's Hammer as a myth or a theory? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.192.119 (talk) 04:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Jainism

Should this be in the article? If these were "cosmological" as opposed to "cosmogonic" myths I'd say it belonged but since there is no actual creation I just don't think it should be here. Thoughts?Griswaldo (talk) 11:44, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Jainism

See also: Jainism and non-creationism

According to Jain beliefs, the universe was never created, nor will it ever cease to exist. It is eternal but not unchangeable, because it passes through an endless series of cycles. Each of these upward or downward cycles is divided into six world ages (yugas). The present world age is the fifth age of one of these "cycles", which is in a downward movement. These ages are known as "Aaro" as in "Pehela Aara" or First Age, "Doosra Aara" or Second Age and so on. The last one is the "Chhatha Aara" or Sixth Age. All these ages have fixed time durations of thousands of years.

When this reaches its lowest level, even Jainism itself will be lost in its entirety. Then, in the course of the next upswing, the Jain religion will be rediscovered and reintroduced by new leaders called Tirthankaras (literally "Crossing Makers" or "Ford Finders"), only to be lost again at the end of the next downswing, and so on.

(see: universe history section in the Jainism article.)

Discussion

• For two reasons I favour including this in the article. First, I am an inclusionist and, when there is a marginal call, it seems to me better to let readers decide if marginal information is relevant to their search. Second, the cycles could be interpreted as 'destruction and creation' as easily as 'upward and downward' since "even Jainism itself will be lost". Starting again from scratch is very like creation out of primordal chaos. A rose by any other name smells as sweet. Abtract (talk) 13:24, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
• Regarding inclusionism - there is a main entry already covering Jain "non-creation" so we wouldn't be taking anything out of the encyclopedia per se. Also we need to change this entry rather drastically to cover the basics of creation myths without all the examples. The idea would be splitting the laundry list out of this article. I do agree however with what I think your main point is about this subject matter being related and of interest here. I think in the new article we can include a section on myths like the Jain one (with it as prime example) as something related that does not fit exactly. What do we call such myths? Another question that comes up is what do scholars call the Jain myth?Griswaldo (talk) 13:29, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm in favor of cleaning this up and splitting off most of these here now because a complete and comprehensive description of all known creation myths would fill a bookshelf. But that said, Leeming calls the Jain story a "non-creation creation myth". Professor marginalia (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Neopaganism

Does Neopaganism use any creation myths? 68.36.120.7 (talk) 04:21, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

surely it would depend on who you worship? i though paganism was just a polytheistic religion? (if it can even be called that) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.212.182 (talk) 03:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Chipping away at this

I've been plugging away at this bit by bit. A good deal of it, but not all, is clean enough to be kicked loose. I think all the existing subsections should be in their own articles (they'll be stubs, most of them). The article here can't be describing any and every creation myth on Planet Earth, and until they're gone there is no scaffolding for a coherent article discussing themes, theories, etc. By their very nature, coming mostly from non-textual, oral traditions, these myths come in a myriad of variations, and spellings! Ideally we move them all to existing articles, where they can be identified, and create new articles when needed. I'd like to see new categories for creation myths; categories based on geography and theme, such as "earth diver myths" or "ex nihilo myths". And then this article takes on more of a comparative mythology analysis angle than the "catalog of every creation myth ever told" angle. So I'll begin kicking loose those I've checked for sources and copyright vio's to stand-alones. It would be great if some savvy editor set up a few new categories (or category tree) to help make sure they don't get lost once they're on their own. Professor marginalia (talk) 04:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

When you "kick stuff loose", please at least LINK to the article instead of simply deleting stuff...I've come here to get an overview of creation myths, which I now can't. How am I supposed to get an overview if I don't know which creation myths are even covered by Wikipedia? For example, I never even heard of the "Bakuba". Since you now deleted the entry about their creation myth in this article, I would have never found out about their beliefs had I not checked the history of this article and then searched for the separate entry (which I found with a slight detour when I was first directed to some Iraqi city) where I found the link to the main deity which in return also sports the creation myth...Either you add links to everything you've removed, or I'm in favor of returning this site to the state it was in before you crippled it. One could think that there were no creation myths in Europe from looking at this entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.91.28.83 (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

i agree, until it has been discussed properly then there should be no major changes, and at the very least a list of all the subsections you deleted should have been made —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.212.182 (talk) 03:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Please check the [ [Category:Creation myths] ] page which should keep these in a more appropriate itemized collection. The category page is linked, and nothing that isn't either unsourced or redundant is being deleted. The article isn't encyclopedic in this fashion: it's too much an ethnographic myth archive or catalog. And as an article it's far too big and disjointed to be useful except as a collection, which isn't the mission of the encyclopedia but more appropriate for wikisource. I'd welcome any help with cataloging to improve the ability of editors to retrieve these from many more angles--the only ones "gone" are those that have languished unsourced for years now, and they're unreliable. Professor marginalia (talk) 04:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Oral origins

"Creation myths develop in oral traditions". Is this an invariable rule? Because if it is, then we have to take the Jewish, Christian and Islamic creation stories out - none of them ever went through an oral stage. PiCo (talk) 07:29, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

According to Scott Leonard and Michael McClure in "Myth and Knowing", "The first five books of the Hebrew scriptures, or Torah (Pentateuch in Greek) were, according to Jewish and Christian traditions, attributed to Moses until modern times. Most biblical scholars now agree that the Torah is composed of at least four separate and distinct narratives, compiled from an original oral tradition and eventually written down over the course of several centures." Professor marginalia (talk) 19:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Scott and Mike are a bit behind the times - the "oral tradition" thing is from Gunkel, first half of the 20th century. Current thinking is that someone sat down in about 450 and wrote the whole thing out by hand, based on the Atrahasis myth. Not that I much care. But certainly modern biblical scholars don't think it ever went through an oral phase. PiCo (talk) 22:19, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

North America only?

why is there only a north american section? where is the garden of eden etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.146.55.22 (talk) 23:43, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The article is undergoing a major clean-up and should be restored soon. I believe the plan is to break it up into smaller, more manageable chunks that can be more easily fleshed out and documented. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 00:49, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, sorry that it's a bit of a mess at the moment, but it can't be helped. The clean-out is almost complete, and then the priority is the rebuild. Professor marginalia (talk) 01:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

If you're doing a major revision, can I suggest you approach the subject more analytically, by myth-type? There are a few basic types of creation myth: the Cosmic Egg, the Primeval Twins, Primeval Waters of Chaos, maybe more but not many. That approach would allow you to simply refer to various individual myths, rather than summarising them one by one. PiCo (talk) 06:11, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly the approach to build from. The hitch has been how to dislodge the many years accumulation of the "summarising one by one" without sending them to oblivion or sacrificing a legit licensing history. The "one-by-one" has been an albatross that can't be loosed without considerable backwork and forework. Professor marginalia (talk) 06:29, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Under construction

This entry is currently going through a major rewrite. Please help! Please do not revert to previous versions just because it looks like there is content missing at the moment. The old entry was simply a repository of examples of creation myths. Prof. M took the very arduous job of finding new more appropriate homes for that material. Now we are trying to build the new entry about creation myths in general focusing on the different motifs found in this category. Concrete examples are of course welcome as long as they illustrate a more general theme. Please help expand the entry in this regard. Griswaldo (talk) 18:57, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• "The ex nihilo creation is thought to be the most common type of creation myth." Who told you that? Ex nihilo is the least common, found only in Christianity, Islam and modern Judaism. Which I guess makes it the most common in terms of number of believers, but not in terms of all myths. It developed from a mistake: Philo of Alexandria in the 1st century BC applied Platonic concepts to the Genesis story and interpreted Yahweh as Plato's First Cause. It was then picked up by Christian philosophers in the 1st century AD and then later by Jewish thinkers, but it isn't the original idea in Genesis, which is creation from the waters of Chaos. I can find references for all this if you want.PiCo (sn't deducible talk) 05:05, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm... "is thought to be" is not equivalent to "is actually", and it often turns out to be "is erroniously thought to be" though correctness vs. error isn't provable in re the question of creation except to dogmatic believers and disbelievers. Regarding whether or not "is thought to be" is supportable, see [1] (challenging the assumption, but ceding the point that the assumption is made), [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], etc. Now that the assertion you quote has been challenged, WP:V requires that it be supported by citation of a supporting source. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Lots of refs there. For your first, the publisher's blurb that you point to says Gerhardt May's book is "challenging the assumption that the doctrine of 'creation out of nothing' was inherited by Christianity along with the Jewish scriptures," yes, but what does it really mean? From May's book it's clear that he's engaging in an academic argument over whether Christianity developed CEN for itself, or whether it came ready-made from the intellectual milieu of late Hellenistic Judaism. In other words, the assumption the publisher refers to is that CEN was a pre-Christian idea - May says it wasn't, and the early Christians thought it up for themselves in the late 2nd century AD. (See the chapter "Recapitulation" in May's book). This has nothing to do with whether or not CEN is the most common type of creation myth. I think it would be safer just to leave that statement out.PiCo (talk) 05:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Outside observer on titles

Cosmogonic beliefs (here_ is not an improvement over creation myths, and Genesis creation narrative (@Genesis creation narrative) is not an improvement over Genesis creation myth. That said, if the decision has been made to go "Cosmogonic beliefs" (far more impenetrable than "creation myth" but would not be the first time WP scares away readers), then Genesis creation narrative needs to be retitled "Cosmogonic beliefs in the Judeo-Christian tradition" or similar. Since "narrative" is not used for similar other articles, it is inappropriate there; and since other articles speak to geography and not specific scriptures, then the use of "Genesis" (specific named scripture in the title) is also inappropriate unless you organize along the lines of:

• Cosmogonic beliefs in the Book of Genesis
• Cosmonogic beliefs in the Bhagavad-Gita

et al. including any similar article using "creation myth" regarding specific accounts. So why, exactly, has "Creation myths" not been renamed to "Cosmogonic belief narratives?" I have to ask, has anyone thought of the reader here, lately? PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 18:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

The name changes to "cosmogonic beliefs" was very poorly considered and short-lived. I think that proposal is completely dead now-and it never had much support in the first place. Professor marginalia (talk) 18:48, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm utterly confused. Where was the decision made to call creation myths, "cosmogonic belief narratives"?Griswaldo (talk) 18:50, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm reading the notice at top as stating content being split out into a series of "Cosmogonic beliefs...". It that's dead, it needs to be removed. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 18:52, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

No, it's dead :). It's probably not helpful to dig for the old bones of that "phase", but I'm sure they're in the talk page archives somewhere. I don't see the notice there now but if it's there please do remove it. Professor marginalia (talk) 19:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Individual creation myths now on master list

The creation myths which were split or merged from here have now been listed on the List of creation myths and grouped by region or continent and myth type. Professor marginalia (talk) 21:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Creation ex nihilo

Creation ex nihilo is definitely not the most common form of creation myth - it's quite a recent idea, and more a philosophical concept than a myth. I've rewritten that section in line with the reality.PiCo (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm finding that the rational/philosophical concept of ex nihilo is quite different than the mythologist's term for it. I'm not sure how the same term came to be used for both, but from what I've gathered in the context of talking about myth themes today ex nihilo means a creation from an emanation (or emission) of the creator. The "something from nothing" abstract that so captivates theologians and philosophers intellectually today is a rational rather than mythical focus. In myth it's a "from the creator" absent a refashioning of other stuff, thus it can be from the speech, thought, look, sweat, spit etc. Also the creation myths don't fall into tidy categories--they can employ multiple themes, for example a myth can begin with a cosmic egg (chaos) from which emerges a creator who creates the skies through both look and sweat (ex nihilo), much like a new creation springing into existence as a newborn baby first opens his eyes. Since so many well-known creation myths are later refined via a more structured, rational discourse into religious doctrine I'm finding more conscious use of the term "creation doctrine" when it applies. That's one of the complications talking about Genesis--there is the creation myth itself, and then there are creatio ex nihilo doctrines which develop from it. And this idea that the ex nihilo enjoys this lofty perch as somehow the most elegant, highly developed in a metaphysical sense has definitely fallen out of favor--just another case of western civilization's propensity to invent excuses to congratulate itself. I was also surprised, though, that it's thought to be the most common-but the given explanation helped it to make sense. Professor marginalia (talk) 14:08, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

More: In Leonard and McClure, these categories are said to come from Eliade with the addition of "Emergence" by Eliade's student, Long, and a later broadening of "dismemberment" to "world parents/parent". In this text also, ex nihilo is defined as created cosmos by thought/word/dream or bodily effluents, and does not imply that "nothing" is the pre-existing condition. In one of the examples given, from the Yuki, the creator emerged from a primeval sea and creates a rope that he seems to coil or twist to draw it up; in doing so, he is attempting to pull the earth up through the waters to the surface. This doesn't work well-he's pulling up too much water with each draw and washing everything away again. So then he spoke the earth into existence, and immediately lined it with whale hide (before there are whales) to keep it from washing away again. And because the earth was empty-no plants or animals-the creator made them from the eagle feathers(before there were eagles) taken from his headdress. This is cited as an example of ex nihilo creation in myth, presumably referring to how the creator spoke the earth into existence.Professor marginalia (talk) 15:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Leeming and Leeming are very good at their joint job. They make this statement, which I find quite extraordinary: "The God of the Hebrews in Genesis simply decides to create, and 'He made Heaven and Earth'." That flies in the face of all current understanding of the first verse of Genesis. It's even an incorrect translation - what Genesis actually says is that God made "the heavens and the earth" - 'heavens is a plural, and earth isn't capitalised (i.e., it's not the planet Earth, it's the earth, the stuff trees grow in - the ancient authors weren't aware that they were living on a planet whirling round the sun). Going a little deeper, it diregards the inherent ambiguity of the Hebrew, which can be translated quite validly as both "In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth," and as "In the beginning of God's creation, the heavens and the earth...". The second excludes the heavens and the earth from God's creative activity, and this is the translation preferred by the vast majority of modern scholars. Please, burn your copy of Leeming and Leeming. PiCo (talk) 11:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Pico - I think you're trying to approach this with the hyper-rational "theological" lens. So in myth it's largely meaningless to claim any single "pure" version of the story-there is no such pre-eminence given in creation myths. All creation myths are seen to be meaningful only in terms of how they are viewed to the people who adopt them--they're a cultural artifact that changes as cultures change. The singular "heaven and earth" may not be the preferred translation today to the historians--but tell that to the millions who've adopted the King James version.[15] So I'm not sure what you mean by it "flies in the face of all current understanding". I think the hairsplitting is appropriate when the argument is over the proper interpretation of the oldest existing Hebrew texts and what that means in theology, but that's a bit far afield here. I think I'd be safe assuming the majority of people, living or dead, who've ever adopted this creation story themselves have concluded God made heaven and earth. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

The inclusion of creation by "creator's bodily secretions" under "ex nihilo" confuses two differnt forms of creation. Using a body secreation, even if it is by a creator, is not "out of nothing", and is contrary to the definition of the term, and the understanding of the meaning of the term by those whose coined it. The traditional belief of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslims communities is that God (Allah) truly created the world out of nothing, i.e., by the God's will alone. That is quite different that using a body secretion, Creation using the creator's body secretion have more in commmon with the Norse and Mid-East creation myths of out of a body of a dead god or giant. In addition, the ancient Egyptian creation myth are not an example of "ex nihilo" - Ra is said to hatch out of an egg or primordial ocean, depending on the version, which is not nothing. By the way, whatever the original intention of the writer of Genesis, the Judeo-Christian communities have for the past 2000 years have understood the first chapter of Genesis as describing creation "ex nihilo".