Talk:Murray Rothbard

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"is considered by some to be"

Since this has been reverted a few times, just to be nitpicky, technically the sources says Rothbard IS the Dean. However, obviously LewRockwell.com is a bit biased, so either it should be noted as "LewRockwell.Com describes Rothbard as" or left as the non-referenced but more accurate "is considered by some to be." I'm happy to leave it as it is but if others want to debate the merits. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Rothbard on race

To counter the now deleted quotes from the Salon piece I put together a better overview of Rothbard's views on race. The Salon piece is based on material from The New Republic and Reason which was contested by Raimondo and others at the time. So those should be the source of any criticism and response not the second hand Salon piece. CarolMooreDC (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I removed the Salon refs because Rothbard was quoted, but no source was given for the quotes. The overall tone of the piece is troubling, as well, with everything directed toward proving Rothbard was a racist, and that, by extension, his allies are as well. The information you added is better sourced, Carol. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the Reason article again on the controversial Ron Paul newsletters which is widely ref'd lately, I remembered - OOPS! - I was quoted in it. Some short reference to this angry period of Rothbard's life probably should be mentioned so it doesn't look like a coverup. CarolMooreDC (talk) 02:48, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Wrong impression about Rothbard's views

Language at two places gives the wrong impression.

"Rothbard advocated minimum coercive government control of the economy." 'Minimum' is euphemistic. Rothbard opposed government tooth-and-nail. "Priding himself on his radicalism, he used to brag that if there were a button one could push that would sweep away all vestiges of government in an instant, he would break his thumb pushing it." http://www.libertariannation.org/a/f23l1.html How about: Rothbard advocated abolition of governments.

"Rothbard concluded that virtually all services provided by monopoly governments could be provided more efficiently by the private sector." 'Virtually' is against Rothbard's philosophy. Rothbard is one of the few libertarians who don't see any place for governments at all. The 'virtually', at least, should be deleted.

The State, then, is not simply a part of society. The brunt of this part of the present volume, in fact, is to demonstrate that the State is not, as most utilitarian free-market economists like to think, a legitimate social institution that tends to be bumbling and inefficient in most of its activities. On the contrary, the State is an inherently illegitimate institution of organized aggression, of organized and regularized crime against the persons and properties of its subjects. Rather than necessary to society, it is a profoundly antisocial institution which lives parasitically off of the productive activities of private citizens. Morally, it must be considered as illegitimate and outside of the ordinary libertarian legal system, which delimits and insures the rights and just properties of private citizens. Thus, from the point of view of justice and morality, the State can own no property, require no obedience, enforce no contracts made with it, and indeed, cannot exist at all. The Ethics of Liberty, Murray N. Rothbard, New York University Press, 1982, 1998; pp. 187

115.242.216.161 (talk) 15:37, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I plan to replace `minimum' by `removal of' and remove `virtually', in the two sentences respectively. Any objections? 115.184.123.103 (talk) 06:22, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Good for you for catching it. Check out Libertarianism where some people are trying to delete any ref to libertarian anarchism. I just haven't had time or energy to come up with the MANY new refs for that topic. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Made the two changes.115.184.17.128 (talk) 10:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Just FYI, I know the changes are right but I didn't really check to see if that's what the WP:RS say, meaning better WP:RS might be needed. Too many articles, too little time. CarolMooreDC (talk) 00:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Hello, no problem. Here is a collection of quotes from Rothbard. Please put proper references in the article too (when you get time to do so!).

• ["virtually all services":] All of this the libertarian denies: he sees the various apologia as fraudulent means of obtaining public support for the State’s rule, and he insists that whatever services the government actually performs could be supplied far more efficiently and far more morally by private and cooperative enterprise. [p. 32] For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto; Murray N. Rothbard; Revised Online edition, Ludwid von Mises Institute; 2002

• [role of State in the society:] But the critical difference between libertarians and other people is not in the area of private crime; the critical difference is their view of the role of the State—the government. For libertarians regard the State as the supreme, the eternal, the best organized aggressor against the persons and property of the mass of the public. All States everywhere, whether democratic, dictatorial, or monarchical, whether red, white, blue, or brown. [p. 54] For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto; Murray N. Rothbard; Revised Online edition, Ludwid von Mises Institute; 2002 (emphasis in the original)

• ["limited state":] Advocates of a limited government often hold up the ideal of a government above the fray, refraining from taking sides or throwing its weight around, an "umpire" arbitrating impartially between contending factions in society. Yet why should the government do so? Given the unchecked power of the State, the State and its rulers will act to maximize their power and wealth, and hence inexorably expand beyond the supposed "limits." The crucial point is that in the Utopia of limited government and laissez faire, there are no institutional mechanisms to keep the State limited. Surely the bloody record of States throughout history should have demonstrated that any power, once granted or acquired, will be used and therefore abused. Power corrupts, as the libertarian Lord Acton so wisely noted. Furthermore, apart from the absence of institutional mechanisms to keep the ultimate decision-maker and force-wielder "limited" to protection of rights, there is a grave inner contradiction inherent in the very ideal of a neutral or impartial State. ... [p. 211] The Ethics of Liberty; Murray N. Rothbard; New York University Press, New York and London; 1998 (all emphasis in the original)

• ["limited state", continued:] Finally there is a crucial inconsistency in the proferred criterion of laissez-faire itself: limiting the government to protection of person and property. For, if it is legitimate for a government to tax, why not tax its subjects to provide other goods and services that may be useful to consumers: why shouldn't the government, for example, build steel plants, provide shoes, dams, postal service, etc.? For each of these goods and services is useful to consumers. [p. 217] The Ethics of Liberty; Murray N. Rothbard; New York University Press, New York and London; 1998

• [relation to the State:] It means, for example, that no one is morally required to obey the State (except insofar as the State simply affirms the right of just private property against aggression). For, as a criminal organization with all of its income and assets derived from the crime of taxation, the State cannot possess any just property. This means that it cannot be unjust or immoral to fail to pay taxes to the State, to appropriate the property of the State (which is in the hands of aggressors), to refuse to obey State orders, or to break contracts with the State (since it cannot be unjust to break contracts with criminals). Morally, from the point of view of proper political philosophy, "stealing" from the State, for example, is removing property from criminal hands, is, in a sense, "homesteading" property, except that instead of homesteading unused land, the person is removing property from the criminal sector of society—a positive good. Here a partial exception can be made where the State has clearly stolen the property of a specific person.... [p. 218]The Ethics of Liberty; Murray N. Rothbard; New York University Press, New York and London; 1998 (emphasis in the original)

N6n (talk) 03:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The reason I bring it up is because in libertarianism we've got these nutty minarchists who want to quote Rothbard as THE expert on why libertarianism has nothing to do with any kind of anarchism! So at some point they may drift over here. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:49, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Rothbard the father of Libertarianism? really?

Even if we were to send to oblivion the fact that the French anarchist-communist Joseph Déjacque is credited with developing the idea of Libertarianism in the late 18 century, is it appropriate for an encyclopedia to use Rockwell's website to claim without attribution that Rothbard is "considered the founder of libertarianism"?

And more importantly, is www.lewrockwell.com a reliable website to use for this article? 198.22.236.230 (talk) 20:21, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems it could use better sourcing (or more nuance, given the obvious leanings of lewrockwell.com). An assertion that may need balancing viewpoints probably is not best placed in the opening sentence. BigK HeX (talk) 20:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Page 441 Hamowy's Encyclopedia of Libertarianism Rothbard article says Rothbard "was of central importance to the modern libertarian movement because of both his writing and scholarship and his personal outreach to young libertarians." This sounds like a good source. (Note: Sources pointing out he was often called "Mr. Libertarian". CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that "important figure in the modern libertarian movement" or some such is probably less contentious. BigK HeX (talk) 18:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Carol what you posted is a far cry from Rothbard being considered "the father of Libertarianism". There's an evident difference between being associated with libertarian ideas and being credited as the "the founder" of them.

In my opinion, Rockewell's assertions merely reflect his affiliation with Rothbard and not a widely held view of him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.132.56 (talk) 16:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, my point was this was a WP:RS way of describing him instead of "father of Libertarianism." CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:02, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

It looks good. It should definitely differentiate between the American notion of libertarianism (ie; Anarcho-capitalism) and the classical (more widely embraced) European view of libertarianism. 198.22.236.230 (talk) 14:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)