Talk:Northern Ireland

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Previous Discussions:

Archive 1 (2004)

Archive 2 (2005)

What is the correct name of the UK's Olympic team?

Is the UK's Olympic team "Great Britain" or "Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?

see Cfd discussion: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:Great_Britain_at_the_Olympics_to_Category:Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland_at_the_Olympics --Mais oui! 22:23, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

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Validity of voter demographic?

I am puzzled by the 59%/22% Unionist to Nationalist percentage that We have on the main Northern Ireland article. These figures, in My opinion, don’t represent the voting figures for Northern Ireland voters and seem to bias towards the Unionist side for Me. I looked into it, and these figures were gained by interviewing an alleged 1800 people. I question the validity on the groups that it doesn’t state were this survey was carried out. For example, was it in Belfast city centre, a fairly unbiased city, or was it say Ballymena or Portadown? Can we also trust 1800 People to fully give us a representation of Northern Ireland opinions on politics?

This source seems to be a little too convenient for my liking.

I draw People’s attentions to the following link: http://www.nationmaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Northern_Ireland_election_seats_1997-2005.png/650px-Northern_Ireland_election_seats_1997-2005.png

Clearly showing a rise in Nationalist voting patterns.

On the same website, they also claim to have conducted a survey were a staggering 86% of People in Northern Ireland claiming they could learn to accept a United Ireland.

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2004/Political_Attitudes/FUTURE1.html

Based on voting figures, I don’t feel We have a fair representation of the opinions of Northern Ireland peoples.

I would recommend perhaps keeping in the voting figures as they are, but also adding it that they were based on only, what, less than 8% of the population of Northern Ireland? I would also recommend a few words on recent voting figures putting that percentage at a different scale, particularly that Nationalist vote is larger than stated.

BBX 23:05, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

You have completely misunderstood both the nature of polling and what they say. What those numbers show (and they are replicated in poll after poll) is that on the issue of a united Ireland 59% support the union, 22% support a united Ireland. Every survey ever done shows that not all nationalists support a united Ireland. The figure usually ebbs around the 50% mark. On my first visits to Northern Ireland I was astonished to find how few nationalists, while proud of their Irish identity, actually support a united Ireland. I met Conradh na Gaeilge activists, a lot of SDLP members, and even Sinn Féin members who privately would say that they would vote against a united Ireland. One of the main arguments was economic: they believed that even Celtic Tiger Ireland could not subsidise the North to the same level as the British taxpayer. They believed unity with the Republic would lead to wholescale cuts in education, environment and social spending. The figures accurately reflect surveys done year in and year out, and are far more accurate than voting figures, where things like personality of candidates, geography, tactical voting, and the undemocratic First Past the Post system all distort outcomes. (Eg, both Mark Durkan and David Trimble picked up large amounts of support from the other community because the alternatives, SF and the DUP, were less acceptable to moderates. Paisley, bizarrely, even picked up thousands of Catholic votes in European elections! In one ballot box I saw opened, some voted 1 Paisley, 2 the SF candidate, 3 UUP!!!) FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 23:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

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This isn't about the above - while I still disagree with the figures, I'll accept them until I can give concrete evidence against them. This is to do with the adding in of the phase:

"In practice, though, those born in Northern Ireland do generally become British Citizens and not automatically Irish Citizens. They can, however, claim or renounce either nationality."

The Irish Government recognise the birth right of all Irish People on the island as being Irish. Why doesn't it therefore also say everyone is recognised as Irish citizens by birth also? The above phrase, to Me as an Irish Nationalist, comes across as petty and serves no purpose. There was nothing wrong the paragragh as it was, this just seems to have been added out of spite by someone. I myself have always been Irish, and have never had to denounce anything.

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Since no one objected I've removed it. However, I dunno how this place worked to be honoust about editing pages and whatnot, so if I have get expressed permission before editing, I apologise and hope that if anyone does indeed disagree, then as the title say, discuss it.

I'm not bothered about the inclusion of the poll. What annoys me is the prominence given and importance attached to it, while election results (the true markers of change) are glossed over. 1800 people, plus acquaintances of Fear "Don't ask Google, ask me" Éireann. A fraction of a per cent of the region's population.

Lapsed Pacifist 22:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Obviously you don't know what an opinion poll is. As to elections being "the true markers of change" no-one involved in politics believes that. Elections show a mixture of party strength, candidate appeal, regional impact, electoral spending, the impact on weather on the day of polling in terms of turnout, the impact of alphabeticalisation of candidate's names on ballot papers, media coverage and a host of other things. They do not, and never have done, give any clear example of views on a policy. Opinion polls do analyse policy issues alone without electoral, geographic, regional, financial and weather impacts and are done professionally using strict mathematical formulae and using carefully worded questions framed to contain no language that would influence the person being questioned.

The only people who feign disbelief in detailed polling are those who find that polls show their views do not reflect the opinion of most people. Tracking polls offer the additional protection of ensuring that no rogue polls create misleading impressions. Because polling organisations have to work with people on all sides of political divides, they refuse to ask questions framed to produce a particular result because their credibility rests on their independence. They could (and are) asked to work for Sinn Féin one week and the DUP two weeks later, the Tories one month, Labour the next. No professional organisation will compromise their credibility by fake polling. So you won't find them asking loaded questions like "The cost of subsidising Northern Ireland is x billions. The Republic's Minister for Finance says the Republic could not pay that and so would have to slash payments on health and roads in the North. In the light of that, do you support Irish unity?" or "Martin McGuinness was head of the IRA in Derry when horrific murders were carried out. Is he a fit person to become Minister for Finance?" or "Martin McGuinness is widely regard as having been a superb Minister for Education. The IRA has disbanded. Do you believe that Martin should be back in government?"

Questions are very carefully worded to be absolutely neutral. In fact before a poll takes place dry runs are carried out with questions to test out their neutrality with feedback taken to see if the person being questioned picked up any unintended bias in the question. Only questions that pass a strict test are carried out.

Polls use 1100 or more respondents because it means that mathematically the odds are that some people will be found who will not be representative of the electorate. The larger the poll size, the smaller the impact under mathematical formulae each individual respondent is overall, which means that on a poll of 1100 the margin of error is could be around 3% but in reality it is usually in the range of 0.7%. Depending on the type of survey, respondents are picked for age, gender, location, class, with groups used that reflect that their segment among overall society. The accuracy of polling is increased marketly if done face-to-face rather than by telephone and to avoid creating bias by making respondents give the sort of answers they think the questioner wants the organisation who commissioned the poll is never released. Indeed questioners may give false names for themselves if their name (Murphy, Paisley, etc) is seen as belonging to one community. Polling numbers are cross-referenced to ensure accuracy and all questions are examined to ensure that the numbers do not throw up a possible bias.

Everyone, from the DUP to Sinn Féin, uses polling and takes the results seriously. Some polling organisations, such as MRBI in the Republic, have such credibility that governments will change policy based on the outcome of polls. Professionals in politics swear by MRBI results. It is not simply a case of asking a couple of hundred people a few questions and claiming that that is representative. It is a very complex process carefully vetted and regarded universally by mathematicians, pollsters, and politicians as 100% reliable. LP's comments suggest that he does not know what polling is, how it is carried out, what its perameters are, and that is big gripe is that polls disprove his theories. Unlike him, privately Sinn Féin does believe the polls — privately leading Sinn Féin figures will tell you that a united Ireland is, on the numbers, not a goer in the forseeable future. But as with all political movements they have to say something else publicly because to say that would demoralise their supporters, just as Bertie Ahern knows that come the next election his party is likely to lose 10-15 seats and has no chance of being in government with the PDs after the next election. Which is why FF are trying to get Labour to ditch Fine Gael and why the PDs are trying build bridges with Fine Gael. The reason for all of this is their own private polling, and isn't explained publicly for fear of demoralising their supporters. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 23:49, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Nothing you've written, nor your tone, is new to me. Polls have changed and will change nothing; elections and referenda do that. I don't believe I've outlined theories anywhere on Wikipedia, so I don't understand how this poll disproves them. Unlike what you imply, I don't have a problem with the poll's inclusion. Just its prominence when compared to election results.

Lapsed Pacifist 00:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Ulster Scots

I'd like to point out that Ulster Scots is not an "official language of Northern Ireland" as stated in the main article. The Good Friday Agreement does not refer to Ulster Scots as a "language", rather describing it as a "variety of the Scots language". It recognised it as "part of the cultural wealth of the island of Ireland", and the Agreement in part lead to the formation of the cross border "Ulster-Scots Agency". The Irish language is official, and is (supposed to) be promoted through media and television/radio broadcasts, as well as being taught in all schools, to all People who wish to learn it.

Since this is supposed to be an encyclopedia, I thought it best to point that out.— Preceding unsigned comment added by BBX (talk • contribs)

• Good point. I'll take it down, unless anyone can substantiate that it has official status. Guinnog 19:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • It's not named under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, which I assume is where Irish derives it's "official" status, perhaps renaming the "Official language" box, to "Languages", and annotating what languages are official would be in order? This could also include the languages of the substantial portugeese, and chineese communities that have developed over the past number of years.
  • For a list of NI languages see [[1]], which I suspect is about as much of an official statement as we are going to get

Unfair removal of work

I’d like to know why, when I add a piece that is constructive and informative to the article, it is consistently removed? Let me show an example.

I add in that Northern Ireland shares a “relaxed” land border with the Republic of Ireland, and it is removed. Why? This is true. The Irish border is as relaxed nowadays as, say, the border between Scotland and England. There is no stop points anymore, no check points, there is North - South ministerial bodies that will be put into place (Per the Good Friday Agreement) that will see the border even further relaxed. Isn’t it right to inform people of this situation and give it its proper title? Yes, it is a border which entails all the legal status of such, but is a relaxed border, which does not have the sternness of a border between say, America and Mexico. It’s an important piece of information to inform people of that, whether people leaning towards a certain side want to acknowledge that or that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BBX (talk • contribs)

It is just as "relaxed" as any other EU state border. Look up France or Spain or Netherlands etc., and see if it describes their boreders as being "relaxed". Jonto 14:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, the old government of northern Ireland has never been official as a flag of northern Ireland, and so what is wrong with adding the word “Unofficial” under it, to further explain it’s status? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BBX (talk • contribs)

It already says "De facto" and "former". It once was the official government flag. Was always and still is the de facto civil flag.Jonto 14:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

This flag was never an official flag to my knowledge, it was merely teh transposition of the coat of arms onto a piece of cloth, if you have any proof that it was ever officially used, would you please post it.86.12.245.194 17:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Under demographic and politics I believed that a piece from another part of the website would be a good addition under the small questionnaire demographic. I added:

Strangely, the same survey shows support for full independence at 11%, while the Ulster Third Way party (the only party that supports independence) receives less than a tenth of 1% of votes. It is important to take into account the fact that public opinion polls can be very inaccurate at times.”

This is a good addition as it informs the reader that although the questionnaire of tiny percentage of northern Ireland say this, it is also important to take into account that the survey shouldn’t be taken with a grain of salt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BBX (talk • contribs)

That is too much detail for the main article. Lapsed Pacifist added that to the Demographics article which needs cleaned up badly. Using words such as "strangely" is POV pushing.Jonto 14:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The difference between support for the independence option and Ulster Third Way is to my mind further evidence that elections cannot be taken as direct referendums on this matter. Leaving aside the fact that they only contest the odd seat, Ulster Third Way is a rather fringe political force with very limited appeal, primarily pitching to loyalist areas with doses of Ulster nationalism and having links to the British National Front. It promotes a lot of "traditional Ulster culture" like the Orange marches and the Ulster Scots language. That's not exactly going to appeal to middle class golf course Protestants for a start. And their reasoning for independence - as a Rhodesia UDI style way of escaping from an all Ireland state - is not exactly something to get Catholics to vote for them. U3W speak for virtually nobody and certainly aren't the voice of one community or the other.

What the raw headline figures don't show is just where in the population the 11% comes from. But belief in an independent Northern Ireland as a compromise for both communities (and it's easier to grasp and sell as a permanent option than a joint sovereignty area) and a view that the people of the six counties are closer to each other than to those in either Great Britain or the Republic, or for that matter emigrees from either wanting to get the province away from them, is not an unknown phenomenon - but none of these are even ideoligcally in line with Ulster Third Way even if they do happen to reach the same conclusion. Timrollpickering 14:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

=To “Jonto”=

I am from Ireland, I travel to Dublin quite often and to mainland western Europe on occasion, I can safely say it is more relaxed than any EU State border I have ever crossed. It’s no more a border than the border between American States. I don’t understand why people get so worked up about the word “Relaxed”, it’s the truth whether people want to believe it or not. A relaxed border is exactly what it is, yet people don’t want it to be acknowledged as such here. Seems like a case of anti Nationalism towards northern Ireland and Southern Ireland people to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BBX (talk • contribs)

I was born in Northern Ireland - I currently live in Switzerland and being right in the centre of Europe I travel frequently. I travelled from Belfast to Dublin and back less than a month ago. The border is no more relaxed than most borders throughout continental Europe.

This is not "anti nationalism" as you put it. I respect that you have nationalist views, but you must remember that when you write here that you must be careful as to not only what you write but as to what you are implying. What you are writing implies that the border doesn't really exist. The border may currently be more relaxed than it was in the past due to the past higher perceived level of terrorist threat, but the current border has simply been brought into line with any normal European borderJonto 18:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The old government of northern Ireland flag has never, and will be the official flag of Northern Ireland. It has no more right to be there than say the Irish Tricolour, which represents the other half of the northern Ireland community, yet if I was to add it, I’m sure that it would be removed. That is despite the fact that there is a much better change of seeing the Irish Tricolour (along with the Union Flag) flying over the city hall of Belfast, than seeing the old government of northern Ireland flag flying over it. Again, an unbiased opinion is not being given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BBX (talk • contribs)

That's why it's used for the Commonwealth Games team, isn't it?! The Tricolour wouldn't be allowed because it is the flag of the Republic of Ireland, not Northern Ireland. There isn't such thing as a "nationalist flag" for Northern Ireland, because many Nationalists would prefer if Northern Ireland did not exist at all. I'm sure that even if NI had a new flag sanctioned by the assembly then nationalists would probably demand that it was removed! Jonto 18:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

=To “Timrollpickering”=

You make some good point, as for “where in the population does the 11% come from” that is a question I have asked before, in relation to where exactly the figures for the entire survey were conducted, and even at that, is it fair to simply take this as the word of truth when only 1800 people, a tiny percentage of the people of the north of Ireland, were questioned.

Maybe the piece was perhaps too long and too commonly written to be placed into an encyclopaedia article, but how does the term below term suit:

“It is important to take into account that small scale opinion polls can be very inaccurate at times”.

This is short, to the point, truthful and simply insightful to the reader. It wouldn’t be fair to try and give a casual reader fact that are not facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BBX (talk • contribs)

The facts that are being stated are that these are results from a poll. Please take a look at Image:Northern_Ireland_Poll.png for the results of the poll over time. It is up to the reader to make up their own mind about the poll results. Your edit still implies that the poll is wrong. Jonto 18:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm living this year in Germany, but normally I live about half and hour from the Massachusetts/New Hampshire Border. And I can say that any time I've travelled internationally here (with the exception of one time into Switzerland), the borders have been comparable. So I'm not sure how the Northern Ireland / Ireland border could be much more relaxed. --jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 17:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Jonto, what I added in is not implying anything, however leaving the results section as it is implies that the results are the full truth, when in reality, 1800 people (a tiny percentage of northern Ireland) cannot possibly give a fully accurate and unbiased viewpoint of Irish northern beliefs on Unification. The Catholic population has been growing for years, if the trend line continues their could likely be a Catholic majority in the north of Ireland by 2017. Should we incorporate that into discussion? 40% of the north of Ireland vote Pro Nationalist/Republican, and Unification parties, should we incorporate that into discussion in that section?

What I’ve added in (and I’ve seen it has been removed/censored even though I shortened it, so I’ll add it back in) gives the reader an unbiased opinion on the Irish northern situation, removing it is clearly bias.— Preceding unsigned comment added by BBX (talk • contribs)

User:BBX, please avoid editorializing within the article. Instead, continue to discuss the inclusion or removal of the poll data here on this Talk page. Adding editorial comments on its reliability is outside our purvue. Jkelly 18:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't want it removed, I simply want it made clear that the opinion poll could be unreliable and shouldn't be taken as the full truth. I don't understand why people are so against giving an unbiased viewpoint on this matter, isn't an enclycopedia supposed to be unbiased and free from personal opinions?

I also brought it to attention that Ulster Scots is not an official language of northern Ireland, yet it still remains listed as so. I wouldn't care if it was or not, but encyclopedia is about facts, and we should respect that. Why can't we simply be more unbias with this subject and try and give a fairer representation of northern Ireland?

I haven't been following the language issue, but your commentary on the value of polls is itself the kind of personal opinion that articles should be free from. Jkelly 19:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Flag Status

What is the official status of the flag? And can it be backed up with a source? Under which government was it official? I'm asking simply because I'm curious, don't know for sure, and feel like it's important to the discussion of whether or not to include any reference in the infobox.--jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 20:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing up discussion on this

The old government of northern Ireland flag is taken from the actual flag of Ulster. The hand has historical fact as being the symbol of the O’Neil’s and a representation of Irish resistance before the Ulster Plantation. Since that time many myths and stories have arisen, such as the popular story of a King and his Sons and the cutting of a hand. There are, however, fabricated due to some Unionist/Loyalists not wanting to have a symbol of Irish resistance to British rule on their flag. On the hand, the thumb was moved from being towards the hand, to being outward, to try and differentiate it from the original hand and the historical symbolisation which it has. The cross was also thinned out from the original Ulster flag, to make it into a St. George’s cross, the flag of England. When displayed in the Governor of northern Ireland’s flag, the disc was yellow, not white as it’s became known by Unionists today. The colour was quickly changed also, to further give it a more “English/British” look, with the addition of the Royal crown of Britain.

The flag was used as the official government of northern Ireland, however, after the Irish Civil rights movement began (Peaceful protests against Unionist oppression towards Nationalists) and the Provisional IRA began their much documented campaign to end British rule in Ireland, the British government suspended and then abolished the Unionist Stormount government in 1973 and began governing northern Ireland straight from England, which - give or take a few moments here and there - has continued up until today.

The flag has not been the official government of northern Ireland flag since 1973, and has never been the official flag of northern Ireland. Some unofficial usages of the flag exists, usually in Unionist dominated fields, such as the Irish FA (the Irish FA only use it during game openings, but since Nationalists don’t support the state of northern Ireland, they would find it hypocritical to support a football/soccer team that represents that state, so they support the Republic of Ireland, hence why there isn’t much objection to the usage of the flag, although the Irish FA might gain interest more from Nationalists if they incorporated a neutral flag)

Although northern Ireland doesn’t have it’s own official flag or national anthem (mainly due to bickering) most peaceful Nationalists and Unionists would probably agree that the unofficial national anthem of “Danny Boy” and the St. Patrick’s cross are fair, unbiased, good and neutral representations of northern Ireland, while it remains a State.

I am a Nationalist of Ireland, however, I would agree upon using the St. Patrick's cross to represent northern Ireland, as most people from here that are neutral would already view it as such.

No discussion?

What goes on at this place. I was hoping that we could perhaps discuss the subject, and maybe get ourselves a neutral symbol for northern Ireland, instead somebody has simply overlooked what I said, and decided to heighten sectarianism and further oppress the views of Irish Nationalists. I even see the old government of northern Ireland flag is still there, so I will ask: Would anyone object to me adding the Irish Tricolour to the same grouping of flags?

Belfast city council were discussing Flag regulations in regards to what is flown on city hall prior to the suspension of the northern Ireland assembly. There was three options tabled:

1. No change. Union flag.

2. Union flag flown at regulated occasions.

2. Neutral. Belfast city crest, or no flag.

3. Equality. Union flag and Irish Tricolour flown simultaneously.

Not once did I hear or read anything about the old government of northern Ireland flag being used. Therefore, by logic, the Irish Tricolour has as much, if not more, legal right to used as a representation of northern Ireland in the modern age.

I will await a reply, but if none is given then I will obviously presume that no one objects, and I will add, or ask for assistance in adding, the Irish Tricolour.

I would have personally agreed to the St. Patrick’s cross being used as a neutral flag, which most unbiased northern Ireland today probably view as the flag of the State, for the time being.

• See the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus article, complete with flag. Guinnog 23:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Complete with NPOV tag. --Red King 23:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Flags and emblems

Flags and emblems are a major issue in Northern Ireland that inflames continuous PoV arguments such as the one above. As BBX observes, it is not unique to Wikipedia. In the interest of NPOV, the most reasonable approach is not to have any flags. Northern Ireland is not a nation, so it does not have a national flag. The most reasonable position is to replicate the infobox from, say, the North East England article. No flags, no emblems, no PoV. Just a map. --Red King 23:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

That's an excellent idea. It's the approach also taken by official governmental issues in northern Ireland at the moment. Whether it is to do with Policing, simply official letters, or even building, the two governments and official bodies in northern Ireland (Unlike the rest of the U.K or the island of Ireland) tent to avoid ANY flags or emblems, which has seen changes to a lot of things in northern Ireland (such as the police force getting the neutral name of "Police Service of northern Ireland"). BBX 00:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is different from a region of England, and is generally seen as more akin to Scotland and Wales, it has its own International Football team and had its own regional government. The flag normally shown is a recognised symbol of Northern Ireland and is used by Northern Ireland at various events. Also, It's the Police Service of Northern Ireland, in English language northern Ireland and Northern Ireland are completely different, northern Ireland could describe the northern half of the island. Northern Ireland is the name of the constituent part of the United Kingdom set up by the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. There have been a number of discussions about this and they usually end in the "Red Hand flag" being reinstated as a cultural symbol rather than national flag. There are many strange things associated with this article, like the .ie TLD in the infobox. - TheKeith 00:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

In some sporting events the old government of northern Ireland flag is used BY CHOICE by the northern Ireland people using it. However, Wayne McCollough and Eamon McGee are example of Sportsmen who used/use the Irish Tricolour as their representation. McCollough used it mainly because northern Ireland is apart of the Irish Boxing body, who’s flag is the Irish Tricolour, and McGee used and uses it because of his heritage and Nationality. The bottom line is that the old government of northern Ireland is used in some sporting events because the people/bodies using it have chosen the flag, just as they are free to choose the Irish Tricolour if they so choose.

Also, if the old government of northern Ireland flag is to be used a “Culture symbol” them the exactly same case will be made for the Irish Tricolour. Unionists, by and large, decent from Scottish and (to a lesser extent) English settlers from the Plantation of Ulster, so they have their culture. However, Irish Nationalists, again by and large, decent from the Irish population predating such settlements. They have, therefore, different cultures and different heritage and so if one culture is to be represented, then the other should be also. Otherwise there will be a serious case of one sidedness that does not reflect the modern day northern Ireland.

The best solution, in my opinion, is to take the advice of Red King (Not to mention the example set by current northern Ireland ways) and leave all flags and emblems for the section that lists northern Ireland flags and emblems.

Anything else would be simply be one sided.

BBX 00:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to say BBX and Red King have a point. Northern Ireland has no official flag. Why should one be displayed so prominently on the page?--jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 02:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I see your point. The non-existence of any acceptable flag for this entity is very telling of the particular circumstances that apply. I still feel the article 'needs' a flag or flags somehow. Maybe another bit of text about the controversy would be appropriate? Guinnog 02:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

That would indeed be a good idea - a section detailing the ins and outs of the situation that have been laid out in the course of this discussion, with appropriate images (of the red hand flag, the irish tricolor, the union flag, and the saint patricks cross) would certainly be both informative and npov. I say yes.--jfg284 ^{you were saying?} 02:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

While i agree that symbols of Northern Ireland are a contentious issue both here and in the real world. I do not believe nor do i support the removal of the symbols on the basis that it would make the article any less pov, if anything it would make the article just as pov not to have these symbols then it would to have them. The removal of the symbols would give editors of the unionist community the ability to say that the removal of the symbols is some kinda of nationalist pov. Regardless of NI is a nation or not, it is one of the 4 constitute parts of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, and should have an infobox that is appropriate to it's status, of which it currently has. While i will not stand in the way if the current infobox being reshaped to remove the flag and coa, based upon their current status of usage, i will only support it on the conditional basis that a section about symbols is added with the imagery, as being that both at one time were official symbols of Northern Ireland, and then in the case of their flag, it sill holds a de-facto status in being a representative symbol of Northern Ireland, regardless if it is accepted as so by all communities, and that the coa still holds a semi-official status being that it's grant has not been rescinded. Besides that i don’t see any need to add any other symbol, i.e. the try colour, to the section with the exception poss of the St Patrick saltire. Also if were are going to remove the sympols because of their non-official status, then the same should be done with images of the same status on other UK pages, i.e. the COA of Wales. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:26, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Poll: Ireland article titles

A poll is currently underway to determine the rendition of the island, nation-state, and disambiguation articles/titles for Ireland in Wp. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 08:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Net Domain

As with most things in Northern Ireland, we have 2 tld .uk, and .ie. While .uk is the most common, the .ie is "open the domain to registrants located in, or with a significant connection to, the island of Ireland". Historically there has been geographic domain allocations such as the .gb, although largely defunct would have covered Britain, and not NI. I would guess the .sco name should also be included if it finally materialises. 86.12.245.194 10:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Flag usage

While the government of northern Ireland was the flag that represented the northern Ireland government pre the early 1970s, people also need to realise that the Irish Tricolour was originally created to be the flag of ALL IRELAND, under the Provisional Irish government after the 1920’s partition of the island.

The green on the flag was supposed to represent Irish Catholics throughout Ireland (and their heritage), the white in the centre was to represent a lasting peace, and the orange was to represent the Protestant peoples in the north (and their Irish/Ulster-Scots heritage).

The Irish Tricolour was never the official flag of northern Ireland, but neither was the old government of northern Ireland flag. The Republic recognised it as such though, as did the Irish Nationalist population of the Ulster Province.

As northern Ireland is at the moment, there is much more chance of the Irish Tricolour being flown, along side the Union flag, than seeing the old government of northern Ireland flag flown officially.

Many Unionists don’t mean offence when they fly it personally, but to many Nationalists and Catholics, it represents a government that treated them like second class citizens, myself included. The Nazi flag was once the flag of the German government, yet it also wouldn’t be correct - politically, officially, socially or unbiased - to show it on this website.

I say either one of the follow should take place:

A. Both the old government of northern Ireland flag and the Irish Tricolour are shown, listing both as “De Facto” or “Unofficial”.

B. No flags used, only a map.

We really need to come to an agreement on this, instead of ignoring the discussion and simply doing what fits one’s agenda. I have my own view on the flag situation, but I’m clearly trying to find a compromise, and I believe I have been nothing but unbiased here.

PS: Since no one has objected since Guinnog's post, I believe it's time we removed Ulster Scots as an "official language", since it currently isn't an official language of northern Ireland. As the Good Friday Agreement states, it does play a role in “the culture wealth of the island of Ireland” but I guess there simply wasn’t enough demand for legal status pertaining to the dialect, as their was for the Irish language. Most Unionists/Protestant I know don't seem to care about it anyway, although their is obviously speakers of the dialect and I would never object to it recieving legal status if the sitution ever arose.

This is getting ridiculous.

Whoever the silent editor is, I would appreciate that you join the discussion, instead of simply overlooking what people are writing and doing as you so please. We’ve already brought it to attention that Ulster Scots is not an official language of northern Ireland, you are giving false information by consistently listing it as so.

We’ve also come to the conclusion that - what you have edited - are unofficial symbols of northern Ireland, the Tricolour of Ireland is also an unofficial symbol of northern Ireland, not just with Irish Nationalists in northern Ireland, but throughout the island of Ireland and worldwide. Removing it, yet keeping another unofficial symbol, is biased.

Either equality: both the old government of northern Ireland and the Tricolour of Ireland, or nothing. Those are fair opinions I believe, and I would appreciate some discussion and not totally overlooking what we are discussing. This is a public encyclopedia and we all entitled to have our say on issues pertaining to how exactly an unbiased article should be laid out. I've got my POV, but adding it into the article without any regard for an unbiased read is - as far as I am aware - against Wikipedia rules.

BBX 21:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC).

United Ireland

Ireland will be One once more, one day.