Talk:Will to power

Free Will

Expert needed: It seems logically that a pre-requisite to "will to power" is an ability for free will on the part of the organism, an agency in the individual. I know Beyond Good and Evil touches on Nietzsche's views on free will but can anyone summarize his views here in the article as a pre-requisite for what is to be a dicussion on free will? Seems germane. --1000Faces (talk) 06:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

One implication of the will to power is a denial of free will. Given the amount of OR that creeps into the Nietzsche pages, it might be better to find a reliable source this discusses the will to power and free will than to invite editors to summarize his views themselves. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 21:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

True. Will to power is the replacement of free will. Man does not want to "choose", man wants to affirm himself. Besides, will to power essentially assumes determinism, because one conclusion from determinism is that nothing is excluded from power. If, for example, randomness was included in the process of becoming, then it is every time a (fatalistic) denial of power and will to power. Consciousness is generally about calculating power (coming from desired effects to necessary causes; thinking = willing = aiming = planning = predicting = teleology)... More conscious thinking (predicting) arises by connecting various less conscious thoughts, so that the result predicts even more intensively. 77.115.131.107 (talk) 14:07, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Please see The Gay Science where Nietzsche directly deals with several fundamental issues underlying even the question of "Free Will". Certain metaphysical structures or frameworks are assumed prior to the discussion of free will which typically are distilled into either Determinism or Fatalism. For the purposes of this discussion, the main difference between the two being cause and effect underling determinism and some deity underling fatalism however in both systems mans choices are either chosen for them or tightly limited. (In the classical Greek understanding the "Fates" or lesser gods could influence mortals and the outcome of their lives.)

One of Nietzsche's goals is to call into question the entire metaphysical pursuit and to show that it is an error and contrivance by the herd used as a type of weapon. In The Gay Science he attacks the ability of science to make definitive knowledge claims and questions our comfort with claiming we know the causes of said effects having assumed the causes act in accordance with certain laws that we can know with certainty. Also, he attacks the idea of the world being compared to "A Machine" or the world as it could be read viewed with deterministic lenses. He states that a world that acted like a machine would of necessity be a meaningful world and would in essence bring us right back to seeking another world of meaning beyond or behind this world, it is essentially world/life denying.

As everyone is familiar with the madman's proclamation in the market regarding God, obviously fatalism with its deistic structure is a non sequitur. Nietzsche insists that man is something to be overcome and that by asserting ones will (contrasted with relinquishing, renouncing, or repenting of the will) the over man can be realized in the process of becoming creators of new values. The only fundamental "cause" or "will" is grounded firmly in the instincts and not any ideal outside this world.

Furthermore, in his view the entire discussion of mans will being limited may very well be viewed as part of the slave morality assaulting the essential purpose and nature of the over man in that the discussion both begins and ends in a metaphysical pursuit that is world and life denying (a slow suicide).216.16.128.162 (talk) 13:51, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Expert Needed

It's now July, and noone has addressed this page. How about we let an expert handle it, and then decide how little we like his views? Gyro Copter (talk) 07:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

What are you suggesting? An "expert" tag on the article? RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 07:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

That's what I had in mind, wasn't sure how to add it though, so thanks. I guess I didn't read Template:Expert-subject carefully enough. Live and learn. Gyro Copter (talk) 07:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup.

I just went through and cleaned up a number of errors in spacing and formatting in the article, including incorrectly formatted book titles and references. There are still a large number of references that are formatted peculiarly and not at all in keeping with Wikipedia guidelines. This needs to be addressed, and should be a group effort. Anyone have any thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

In http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Will_to_power&action=historysubmit&diff=382941133&oldid=381868791 I removed the following sentence "The relevance of gender and cultural differences in the application of these theories to universal humanity and non-human life is a source for serious concern among many scholars." I've no opinion on it's validity, but the original author failed in communicating any meaning. Can someone with more knowledge re-add it to the introduction? Muxxa (talk) 21:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

What IS the "will to power?"

The article doesn't have a section that explains its ideas, implications, etc. The definition might be in the article somewhere, but one would have to wade through to find it. I'm not an expert on Wikipedia's article layout methods, but I think it should be concisely explained somewhere near the top, in its own section.68.0.86.130 (talk) 02:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The article begins with Schopenhauer's perspective on the Will and the Will to Live, from there it goes on with explanations of different influences in Nietzche's life that may have developed his idea, but the idea is not explained. This article is more a discussion about the influences on Nietzche's "Will to Power" than it is on "Will to Power" itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.226.9.96 (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I also agree. I came to this page to see how Nietzsche 'got around' his problem of nihilism arising from the death of God (see God is Dead) and got nothing easily accessible (in stark contrast to the page that led me here). Furthermore, I suspect that many others have and will follow the same route and find no logical explanation, leaving feeling less enlightened than when they came. So please, if you know anything about the Will to Power, write something (anything) about it! --124.189.68.190 (talk) 13:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

• I added a bit to the lead. Hope this helps a little. Maybe an expert will come along and go deeper into the meaning of "will to power".  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  15:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I came to this talkpage to raise this same point, so I still consider it an issue. The lead section currently describes aspects of the concept, but doesn't appear to define it. Dissecting it (partially out of boredom):

1. "a prominent concept in the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche" we now know the category of the concept, and we know that it's important (vaguely WP:PEACOCK, but no big deal.
2. "describes what Nietzsche believed to be the main driving force in man" we now know it's one of many driving forces, particularly the main one, according to Nietzsche.
3. "achievement, ambition, the striving to reach the highest possible position in life, these are all manifestations" manifestations are subsets of a concept, but this does nothing to describe what unites them.

I presume the definition would be something like "the 'will to power' is the term used by Nietzsche to refer to the driving force of man to have control over his environment" but this is just an educated guess. It can't possibly be that hard to find a citable source that clearly defines the term. -Verdatum (talk)

In The Gay Science Nietzsche states the Will to Power is a will to survive however this is not merely to avoid death (Schopenhauer's and/or Buda's renunciation of life) or to procreate rather it is a will to be a cause (the desire which possibly lies behind procreation). We are to thrive (contrasted with survival) by ever becoming a more autonomous and self caused being defined by our own table of values and not those of another. According to Nietzsche, this type of person should be able to stand back from their life and say, "Thus have I willed it" according to their own categories and tastes. The thought may very well be amorphous intentionally to allow for flexibility, although the idea seems to have several distinct phases.

1. At first blush the will to power is a will to live life to its fullest pursuing mastery over oneself and the world around us.
2. One obtains mastery by breaking the old tables of values and freeing themselves to be creators understood as breaking free of the old, baseless, and life denying (suicidal) moral judgments, categories, and calculations of the herd or slave morality.
3. Redefining morality in ones own terms (by ones instincts) as a result of seeing morality as a control devise to lower man closer to animal more than they already are.
4. Developing the over man who will overcome and surpass man in his current evolutionary iteration.

The story of the tight rope walker in Thus Spoke Zarathustra illustrates the fact that man is in transition somewhere between animal and the over man and the difference is the will to power. That rare will to be self caused and free of both good or evil ever moving toward the over man even if it results in death as it does for the tight rope walker who Zarathustra caries away and buries.216.16.128.162 (talk) 13:36, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Skip to TOC

I added the {{skiptotoctalk}} template to the top of this discussion page for those who like to "get right down to it".  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  18:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Adlerian will to power

That was a good revert, RJC. I was coming back later to heavily clean it up, because I also feel it was too much about Adler and not enough about the Adlerian will to power. So next time you see it, hopefully you'll find it acceptable. I'll sandbox it for a while longer.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  14:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

The section on Adler's contribution has been cleaned and polished. And I redesigned it as a subsection for the Interpretations section. The brief piece is now much more about the subject matter, the will to power, and much less about Adler. I did try to stay focused on what would be most important to the article for it to remain readable (legible), and interesting and informative to readers.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  16:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. And I've included a quote from Adler, which shows the relation between his psychology and Nietzsche's will to power. --D.H (talk) 20:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Great! Definitely adds dimension to the subsection. Sorry about the Cquote; as much as I like 'em, WP says to only use them with pull quotes. Editor RJC and I had an edit conflict while trying to remove the "C". I think they look great, but if striving for FA is a realistic goal, Cquotes must be excluded.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  21:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Check your sources?

Nietzsche does not say: "in intellectual beings that pleasure, displeasure, and will are to be found" in §110. That quote is from the end of §127, I'll fix the error. --96.253.50.139 (talk) 20:03, 6 November 2010 (UTC)