Talk:Edward V

Is there contemporary evidence that Richard had his brother declared illegitimate? From my understanding, this is more Tudor propaganda. Richard was devoted to his mother, and to declare her as cuckolding his father is rather unthinkable. -- Zoe

Besides which, the old girl was still very much alive and would have had his guts for garters. But there are indications that was one of the stories Clarence was spreading to enhance his chance at the throne and, therefore, the reason their mother didn't hold his execution against Edward and Richard. But it was definitely the Tudor propagandists who said it in public and attributed it to Richard. -- isis 31 Aug 2002

Contemporary accounts of what was said vary. Mancini, who is often quoted by Richard's supporters, is one of those who said that Edward IV himself was declared illegitimate.

I don't think that replacing reasoned argument with non-NPOV stuff is going to help resolve the issue. --Deb

What issue? Nobody ever declared Edward IV illegitimate, so there is no evidence that anyone did. Edward's children were declared illegitimate, by Parliament, in Titulus Regius. Those are facts, and there's a huge difference between NPOV and revisionism. -- isis 31 Aug 2002

There is also no evidence of Edward IV's pre-contract. However, there is a big difference between listing all available evidence and selectively listing the bits you prefer to believe in. Even the Richard III Society website is more objective than the article as it stands. Deb

Yes, there was evidence of the precontract, namely, the Bishop's eye-witness testimony, and it was credible enough to convince Parliament. --isis 31 Aug 2002

Are we really going to descend to repeating all these tired old for-and-against-Richard III arguments? I did my best to make the article NPOV and objective. You have chosen to present only the evidence you find palatable. I can't be bothered to continue the debate --Deb

No one doubts you did your best, and no one doubts your intentions. This is just one of those cases where the consensus of the Wikipedian community went the other way. It happens. --isis 31 Aug 2002

I don't see anything NPOV about what's on the subject page. -- Zoe

Prince of Wales

(For a brief period after his birth and before he was officially given the title, he was one of two living Princes of Wales, the other being the only son of Henry VI of England, who was killed in May, 1471.)

I removed this bit because it's not at all accurate - Prince of Wales isn't a title automatically inherited at birth, it has to be awarded. There certainly can't be two of them, by definition. Edward (V) may have been heir to the throne briefly while Edward of Westminster still claimed the title Prince of Wales, but then the throne itself was still in dispute at the time. sjorford →•← 12:28, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Richard was only 'next in line for the throne' if qualifiers are added

"Richard's other brothers, Edmund and George, Duke of Clarence, had both died before Edward, leaving Richard next in line for the throne." This statement is only true if you also add that the Duke of Clarence's children were barred from the succession by their father's attainder. Historians are unclear on this (as was Richard III probably). The statement should probably be altered slightly to reflect this.

Not crowned

"Along with Edward VIII and Lady Jane Grey, Edward V is one of only three British monarchs never to have been crowned." Can't be true. There is few others too --Tbonefin 17:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC).

...and they are...? --King Hildebrand 15:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

• Edgar Atheling was King of England for two months in 1066, but never crowned.
• Matilda was Lady of the English for a few months in 1141, but never crowned.

So that has answered your question, King Hildebrand. Deaþe gecweald 12:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I think a more pressing issue is that he's referred to as a British Monarch. Britain didn't exist as anything more than a geographical concept in 1483.

- CharlieRCD —Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlieRCD (talk • contribs) 16:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

As an alternative to removing uncrowned monarchs only of England from a "British" list, you could add all of the uncrowned monarchs of Scotland (before the U.K.) to the list. It would then include all uncrowned British monarchs.64.131.188.104 (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

The part about uncrowned monarchs is problematic in that it places Edward V and Edward VIII, who though never crowned were both undoubtedly King for a time, with Matilda and Lady Jane Grey, who were never truly Queens. Most every textbook, and even the British monarchy website, simply lists Stephen as King from 1135-1154; simply because Matilda temporarily got the upper hand in the was known as the Anarchy does not mean she was truly queen. Additionally, Mary I is listed as succeeding Edward VI; once again, just because some tried to make her queen does not mean the nine days when they tried meant she was truly queen. To give these two ladies the same place in history as Edward V and Edward VIII, who were truly King and accepted as such, is simply misleading.

" Edward V .... who were truly King... " Edward V never reigned, ruled or had a coronation. His claim to the throne is doubtful. In fact, the only reason why he is listed is because of Tudor propaganda. 162.93.199.11 (talk) 17:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

EastShire

To what land does the title 'Lord of EastShire' attain to? No other King/Queen of England seems to have such a title. Lenzar 21:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Date of Accession

I've changed this to the 9th, rather than the 11th, as the 9th is stated in the tables elsewhere in Wikipedia, and also seems to be the date favoured by historians. Since he was never crowned, and his succession had been premeditated, it makes sense to say that his reign began upon the death of Edward IV. The 9th April is by far the more commonly encountered figure, but I have added a proviso to the main article explaining the discrepancy.

CharlieRCD 22:58, 24 September 2007 (GMT)

Uncrowned monarchs

Lady Jane Grey as an uncrowned Queen of England? --Wetman (talk) 12:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Wikipedia ought not contain statements that Lady Jane Grey was legally, unambiguously, and without qualification, Queen, without some kind of footnote or "purported" or anything. See my addition to the Talk Page for Lady Jane Grey.64.131.188.104 (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

Date of birth

List of English monarchs says he was born 2 November. This article says 4 November in the lede, and 2 November in the info box. Which is the correct date? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Come on, guys. We cannot call ourselves a serious encyclopedia if we give him different birthdates in different places in the same article. I have no idea which is correct, but somebody must have some idea. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ...

I've changed the date in the lead ~ it now matches that of the info box. I chose that way because that's the date in the reference i currently have at hand, sitting next to my desk. Happy, Jack? Cheers, Lindsay^Hi 06:01, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thanks very much, Lindsay. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 08:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

New file File:King Edward V from NPG.jpg

Recently the file File:King Edward V from NPG.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 10:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Lambert Simnel

If this material about Lambert Simnel is encyclopedic, it would be better dealt with there than here. PatGallacher (talk) 00:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I would definitely consider Smith's work to be encyclopaedic. The initial webpage I linked the reference to is of course just a webpage, but that in turn links to a full article from the Ricardian, which is a reputable journal (in fact I have a paper copy of the original). And Smith presents a very convincing analysis of the jumble of information available in the original sources, which casts serious doubt on both the real and claimed identities of Simnel. I admit that Smith's argument begins to struggle when it tries to suggest that the real identity of Simnel was actually Edward V, so I would definitely agree that the original mention of the Simnel connection needed a reword. However I do feel that the reasonable chance that he claimed to be Edward V deserves a dozen or so words, out of a thousand, in Edward's article. People can go on to read about Lambert Simnel, they can read Smith's article, and then make their own minds up. What do you (and anyone else who's interested!) think?

Lambert Simnel's page itself would indeed warrant a fuller discussion of Smith's thesis, but really that whole article needs to be overhauled, and I don't know where to start! Currently it presents a largely coherent narrative that simply isn't supported by the aforementioned jumble of primary information (accounts of Simnel are much murkier than those of Warbeck), all based on one non-academic source. Interestingly, I note that Smith's article is the sole reference for the material on Lambert Simnel on the German language Wikipedia, but unfortunately, I can't speak German!

Thank you for taking an interest in this otherwise rather neglected page, and I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts :)

Stephen 81.129.2.220 (talk) 19:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Thomas More Account of His Death

I think the article should also include this. It might be an invention, but it also might be the true story about his disappearance. The nndb site states: "According to the narrative of Sir Thomas More, Sir Robert Brackenbury, the constable of the Tower, refused to obey Richard's command to put the young princes to death; but he complied with a warrant ordering him to give up his keys for one night to Sir James Tyrell, who had arranged for the assassination. Two men, Miles Forest and John Dighton, then smothered the youths under pillows while they were asleep. The murder was committed most probably in August or September 1483. Horace Walpole has attempted to cast doubts upon the murder of the princes, and Sir C. R. Markham has argued that the deed was committed by order of King Henry VII. Both these views, however, have been traversed by James Gairdner, and there seems little doubt that Sir Thomas Mores story is substantially correct." I'm not sure about this last statement but I still think this version of what happened should appear in the article.82.154.83.186 (talk) 01:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Was he ever actually King?

"Edward V" seems to be something of an anomaly. Past and future de facto monarchs such as Louis(1216) and Jane Grey are generally not included in Lists of English monarchs. Furthermore, he never appears to have even been a de facto King. Likewise, the Titulus Regius declared that he had never actually been King. It is only the Tudor revisionism and styling Henry VIII's son "Edward VI" that meant there then had to have been an "Edward V". In addition even if Richard III did "usurp" the throne, why do we not then recognise Arthur I, Duke of Brittany as ever having been King? When Richard I died, Arthur WAS next in line, yet the crown went to John. The major difference is that when Edward IV died, the throne went to Richard because the so-called "Edward V" was illegitimate, AS A BILL PASSED BY PARLIAMENT CONFIRMED. Arthur was clearly legitimate. Yet Arthur is not listed as a Monarch but Edward IV's bastard son IS? And if he was legitimate, would it not be possible that he died before his brother, in which case his brother would be "Richard III", and Richard III be "Richard IV"? had Richard III's son survived, and Richard III won Bosworth, his son would certainly be styled "Edward V". Likewise, had the Yorkists won the Battle of Stoke, then Warwick would have become "Edward V" also. "King Edward V" is Tudor revisionist fiction. 137.158.152.213 (talk) 11:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, if someone states that he was King(which he wasn't), then Titulus Regius would have to follow the precedent set by the Treaty of Lambeth which stated that Louis have never been the Rightful King, hence his actual de facto reign being erased. There is also the case of Edgar The Aetheling who was a King who even held Parliament, yet is not generally recognised due to the circumstances of his reign(which DID exist). or Matilda's reign not being recognised. Yet "Edward V"'s reign is recognised. Why? Simply because the next King Edward of England was made to style himself "Edward VI"? 137.158.152.213 (talk) 12:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)