Talk:Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation

The following was deleted from the page "Critics argue that the school trains attendees in practices such as genocide, massacres of civilians, and egregious human rights violations,<ref name=IOB>" Who are these critics and what is their first hand information concerning what is being taught at the shool? According to WHINSEC the school has never in its history taught any type of terrorigation techinques of any kind. To put this information in as fact simply because some organization makes an accusation is not proof. One of the main purposes of the creation of WHINSEC was to have a school which from its very beginnings was adament about properly reviewing any materials that were used by the school and removing any training that would raise questions of human rights abuse. (Just for everyone's information: One of the biggest drums being beat to attack the former School of the Americas is the "torture manuals". The SOA "torture manuals" often talked about were never used as instruction materials but were additional reading materials provided by a fromer instructor from another school. The school included them in their additional reading materials without reviewing them assuming they didn't not contain innapropriate materials. When it was brought to their attention that they did they recovered and destroyed them. That was an action taken by the school after the school realized the mistake.) I know these things because I traveled to the school for eight years and personally investigated most of the accusations.) If this defaming materials is to be returned to the page it should requre that somewhere there is found one person who will testify that they were taught any kind of interrorigation techniques at WHINSEC. If not what may or may not have been taughts at SOA has nothing to do with what is presently being taught at WHINSEC. This is an article about WHINSEC and not SOA. ~~~~

POV

This page is currently SERIOUSLY BIASED towards the school. There is almost no mention of the countless massacres and killings that the school's graduates have committed. There is no mention of the anti-union activity that the students are trained in. And, most of all, there is no mention of teh annual march against the school in which thousands participate every year, and in which dozens commit acts of civil disobedience in protest of the school. I have tagged this articl for disputed neutrality, and it would be great if someone researched the topic a little bit more and changed the article so it represented the reality of the school instead of the official government opinion. If no one else changes it, I'll have to. And soon.TrogdorPolitiks 20:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[Countless? How many do you consider countless. I have never heard of more than a small handful of accusations for which there was no direct correlation between what they did and what they learned at the school. With over 75000 students having attended the two schools, all military, police, or civil authority to have only a small handful being accused of misconduct is actually quite remarkable in that by pure chance the number would not be greater. I might even assume that is because the school and its training actually prevented such things from occuring. 72.69.90.213 (talk) 19:01, 29 November 2010 (UTC) ]

I fixed some stuff. Still needs a rewrite, not incredibly clear WHY there is so much dispute over the institution, but the facts are there.TrogdorPolitiks 20:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's remain objective. While I agree the article is flawed, what I see above my post here is as slanted as the article it's complaining about. If the facts are there, as you say, cite some references. I challenge you to present them without rhetorical devices like ALL CAPS; without inflammatory exaggerations like "countless massacres"; and without non-sequiturs: the fact that there are annual marches, in which people commit civil disobedience, does not demonstrate wrongdoing on the part of WHISC; it demonstrates that there are annual marches, in which people commit civil disobedience. The fact that numerous murders and some massacres (while clearly horrific and tragic) have occurred, does not prove that WHISC ordered them, nor that the WHISC trained the killers to commit them, any more than the fact that Ted Kaczynski's attendance at Harvard (or the attendance of any number of future white-collar criminals, lawyers, and CEOs) casts ill repute on that institution. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ancientgeekphilosopher (talk • contribs) 9 August 2006.

I would say it is POV in this manner: Most people who know about the School of the Americas/Western Hemispher INstitute for SEcurity Cooperation know about it because of the attrocities committed by graduates and the high number of future dictators it graduated and not what the institution says of itself. There is no reason to give the institution's POV of itself at 50% of all content. This type of thinking gives government a de facto veto on all such content. And that's just speaking of a US centric POV. Move beyond the US and the SOA/WHINSEC's POV of itself would be a much, much smaller minority. Unless of course US POV are the only views that matter. I don't think that is what wikipedia is about. LobotRobot 21 December 2006

The writing style of this article is a complete embarrassment. It is so thoroughly biased toward the school as to approach complete self-satire. EVERY point in the criticism section is followed by pro-SOA/WHINSEC replies. This is not seen in reverse in the other sections. A total rewrite of this article is needed, although it appears that the school and-or its supporters will not allow it based on a careful review of the changes. Mac.bh (talk) 06:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the main problem is that the "History" section is mostly in favor of the school, where in fact there's not much about the actual "history", while controversial parts of the history are only on the criticism part. I mean, for and against are in 2 separate parts, while "history" should be "history", representing both positive and negative sides.This part should be rewritten in order to match with the title of the section.--Desyman44 (talk) 21:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Pentagon changing the name

In 2000, mounting pressure upon the United States Congress to stop funding the SOA caused the Pentagon to rename the school the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, abbreviated as WHISC or WHINSEC.

The source for this is an unsourced blog which is not a WP:RS. It was in fact Congress who changed the organization and name by law, the 2001 Defense Authorization Act, 10 USC, Sec 2166. It may have been the Pentagon who was behind the proposal for the changes that the Congress voted on but this would require a RS. As such I will removed this statement unless there are sourced objections.Ultramarine (talk) 12:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

At present WHINSEC is the best source of human rights protection and training available. How do I know that? Because I served for four years as and advisor and four years as a Board Of Visitors member at which time I helped in its development and implimentation. The real problem with entries on the page is evidently most people who post neither know the actual work of the school, have never been to the school, nor had any contact with its administration, teachers, or even students for that matter. I am constantly bewildered by statements such as "All those graduated who massacured people are never mentioned in connection with the school." Or statments like that. While in its existance the School of the Americas had over 60000 students. WHINSEC has had well over ten thousand students in its existance. I get a little greived when I give out information about WHINSEC and people say "who are you" that we should accept your information at truth. Well I ask the same question as to those who post falsehoods about the school and delete easily verified information which could be obtained by a simple phone call the school administration. What is even more frustrating is that after over 75000 students attended the two schools when a hand full go out and commit human rights violations that it is automatically assumed that they learned how to do it at either SOA or WHINSEC. How does a class on running a supply depot or writing military orders or working in cooperation with anti-drug taskforces across boarders teach torture or human right abuse? The answer is simple it does not. As concerns WHINSEC in their entire history they have never taught interrorigation techniques of any kind. Period. What they have learned at WHINSEC to the requirement of protecting human rights and not using torture or abusive treatment of others. Period. The WHISEC of today, an organization which is sending out trained country of origin graduates back home to teach their entire country the importance of protecting human right and the elemination of torture and such techniques is what should be the lead article on the WHINSEC post. Instead what we see is false propaganda coming from political anarchists such as SOA Watch and other organizations which are parroting false accusations in order to obtain political gain. Rev. / Chaplain (Major USAR, Retired) Kent Svendsen Advisor Board of Visitors 2000 - 2004 Member Board of Visitors 2004-2008 WHINSEC / Former member Board Of Church and Society United Methodist Church Northern Illinois Conference/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.90.213 (talk) 18:53, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Image

Not found on the webpage of WHINSEC, in contrast to the seal, and it does not list from where it was taken, so unless a source is given it will be removed.Ultramarine (talk) 09:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

Not sure if this belongs under the Controversy section, but the Punk Rock band Anti-Flag has a song called "School of Assassins (SOA)" a clear reference to this topic I think is worth adding somewhere 76.190.164.114 (talk) 05:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Adds from Italian Wiki

I added some information that were missing, by translating from Italian Wiki[1]. I think that if on that version the information are not considered violation of POV, they arent as well on the English one. I am still working on it anyway.--Desyman44 (talk) 17:52, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

New Photo

I have a photo of what SOA looks like now (hotel) if that might add to the page?--Abarratt (talk) 17:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Why not? in my opinion it's all right, but specify that that is the OLD location, not the current! On italian wiki there's this pic from commons: - is that one or a new one?--Desyman44 (talk) 17:47, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

adds on Japanese wiki

Please edit it, anyone who can speak Japanese :)--124.155.16.92 (talk) 06:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Posada Carriles

I added a picture of Posada Carriles at the time of his education in Fort Benning. at the time the school was in Panama, but Fort Benning is the actual location of the academy. That's why I chenged in the beginning my own edit from "in the school" to "here", of course referring to Fort Benning. --Desyman44 (talk) 13:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Posada Carriles went there. In Joan Didion's book "Miami", she discusses that several Cuban exiles went to military training in the US prior to or concurrent with the formation of the exile action groups Alpha 66 and Omega 7. But it wasn't SOA, and actually (according to Didion) the exiles saw the training as a sort of run-around by JFK to keep them occupied without actually committing to a full-scale invasion (that is, a second attempt of the Bay of Pigs). After becoming disenchanted with JFK's plan to train them, they stopped their training and returned to Miami and apparently it was really touchy for JFK at the time and he pleaded with them to stay or something (he was desperate to keep them convinced that a second invasion attempt was underway, when in fact he didn't want to do that). 173.3.41.6 (talk) 19:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Introduction, NPOVs and sources

Ultramarine made an edit to introduction [2], claiming there is a NPOV, without stating which one, since all information has source, they are not dissimilar to other wiki versions, they tell neutrally facts.

It now looks like this:

This is denied by the WHINSEC and supporters who argue that the alleged connection is often weak, such as taking a single course on Radio Operations and human rights violations many years later. The education now emphasizes democracy and human rights. [6][7][8]

Since: 1. Saying the connection is "often weack" can be considered a NPOV, since the only provided case of weak connection is the one of Roberto D'Aubuisson. I doubt, anyway, that this can be considered a "weack connection", since he actually was fully graduated there - independently from the specialization course he attended - as all of the "Notorious graduates", and not a sporadic contact. The fact that years passed from his graduation, I dont think can be brought as justification. Graduation is not like milk, that then you throw away. One remains a graduate till he dies...or have I to repeat my study in 10 years to have it confirmed???

2. "such as taking a single course on Radio Operations" is given as a general statement, while it does correspond just to D'Aubuisson. This is, anyway, explained later on, in the "according to SOA Watch" section, where this information seems more appropriate since states who is the person in the case.

3. That "The education now emphasizes democracy and human rights" is given as stated, while this is only wht DIRECT SOURCES, that should be avoided but here are widley used, do say. Sources, in fact, are: the official website (6), an article quoting the school's officials (7), another article where I dont find traces of the words "human rights" or "democracy", but rather talks about the case of D'Abuisson (8). "Emphasize", in fact, seems not neutral, but rather a personal consideration. More neutral would be stating the fact, more reliable, that 8 hours of Human rights and democracy education has been introduced in curricula, or at least write that the "emphasizing" is in supporters'/officials' words.

Then I suggest to: - restore the previous version;

-in alternative, to find a compromise such as: This is denied by the WHINSEC and supporters who argue that the education now emphasizes democracy and human rights and that the connection with the school is in some cases weak. --Desyman44 (talk) 16:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the actual courses taken by these persons if is usually in things like logistics, tank warfare and so on. Only a few took courses in the intelligence and counter-intelligence which allegedly mentioned some torture techniques in intelligence manuals. If you insist, I can state exactly which courses those persons mentioned in the intro, and other places, took. 8 hours of human rights eduction is the minimum per course.Ultramarine (talk) 16:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I know it's the minimum. If u prefer, it can be written explicitly that "a minimum of 8 hours of human rights and democracy education has been introduced in curricula", even if it's already written several times later on. The "emphasizing" still remains not neutral if not stated that is a consideration by somebody. Or writing the pure fact that min. 8 hours have been introduced, or that the consideration that it "emphasizes" comes from DIRECT SOURCES (that should be avoided as often partial).

Adding all the courses taken can be a good idea for the scheme in the bottom, that needs to be filled, according to SOA Watch, eventually also with the main crimes those people are accused of. But seems not proper in the introduction nor in the text of the article, since will make it less flowing.

the use of the "often weak" remains non neutral, since I dont think that the type of course does mean a stronger or weaker connection, since we dont know, besides the tytle of the course, what exactly they were thought or which manuals they actually read. It can be stated connection is sometimes weak, but "often" it's a word I'd avoid.

The "such as..." part does apply only to one person, so it's not properly written. Better avoid the "such as" and just say in some cases ("some" doesnt nor say "many" or "a few", so fits better and is more neutral) the connection is weak. Then you can specify all the courses later on. I thik this can be a good compromise, hm?

--Desyman44 (talk) 16:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

We know that the criticized manuals were used in Intelligence courses. That seems to be the only concrete allegations regarding teaching material or other material teached. No evidence that every course included teaching human rights violations. I disagree that it is necessary to mention specific persons in the intro. The intro in your version is biased against one side. Another suggestion for solving this would be to restore the prior intro which was not biased against either side.Ultramarine (talk) 17:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I dont see why u see it biased against one side. I put a specific, relevant and sourced information, not a POV, that is in nobody's interest to hide, unless that person is a Carriles supporter! The part about answers to critics was present, I never deleted it. Some of your expressions, on the other side, such as "very weak" or "emphasizes" seems not neutral as to try to understimate the responsibilities. I will split my points it in parts, please answer me to each, so discussion is easier:

1."often weak" is not really neutral, I'd avoid "often" and put some more neutral word such as "sometimes weak" or "not often strong"...etc.

How about "at least sometimes weak"

2."The education now emphasizes democracy and human rights." is a quotation from school's officers[3]. Or you report it, as it is in the article you put as a source (School's Officers claim that...) or you just tell the fact that min. of 8h education in human rights has been introduced in curricola.

More correct "According to the WHINSEC, now there is a minimum of eight to forty hours of human rights eduction per course depending on its length.[4]."Ultramarine (talk) 09:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

3.If, as you stated, the evidences are not enough to know whether the manuals were used in other courses or not and, I would add, since we dont know if there have been other manuals or if the teaching has also been without manuals explicitly teaching "human rights violation", using the case of one person (itself, anyway, not clear) in order to state it is the case of many ("such as...") is implicitly a contraddiction. I do not say not to write it, and I agree with you mentioning a specific person in intro is not the best solution. That's why i would avoid talking about him without telling his name (it's not really encyclopedic) and state that is argued that sometimes connection is weak/not often strong. Then the topic will be developed in details in the appropriate section.

But you are describing specific individuals in the intro. We do not know if the SOA teached those individuals anything corrupting or was in any way responsible for later human rights violations. Since this is unknown such controversial allegations should not be in the intro. I still think the earlier shorter version was NPOV. It did not mention any individuals exactly because there is no evidence for any role of the SOA except for those taking Intelligence courses. If you accuse specific individuals, it should be those who took Intelligence courses.Ultramarine (talk) 10:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, according to the SOA "The School of the Americas taught military education courses as they were taught in U. S. Armed Forces institutions -- the School translated the courses, lessons plans and all, into Spanish."Ultramarine (talk) 10:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

4.You wrote that WHISC and supporters say connection between SOA and terrorists is often weak, but I can only see that WHISC reject accuses to CURRENT practices, while about SOA just says it belongs to past and that now there's human rights education. The defence of SOA through the "very weak connections" are stated only by supporters (the Paul Mulshine you quoted), not by WHISC and, anyway, they regard just D'Aubuisson: another reason why I'd avoid the "such as...". Let me know if you have information that state it differently--Desyman44 (talk) 18:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Mulshine only mentions D'Aubuisson but it is quite clear that he argues that many of the other individuals linked to the school are so on similar weak grounds. Again, I think this whole problem could be avoided but not mentioning any individuals in the intro.Ultramarine (talk) 10:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Pov tag

I have removed the POV tag since the user who added it, even after I invited him/her to leave a comment on this talk page, did not explained why and what his/her proposal were, therefore only adding the template without allowing any possible resolution of the dispute as no dispute actually started.--Desyman44 (talk) 19:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

So the introduction is not open to any changes? The instuctions plainly state that wikipedia entries are supposed to be impartial and not defaming. Why is the opening statement that WHINSEC is equivalent to SOA when in fact the two schools are nothing like each other? Granted SOA trained Central and South American soldiers, police, and civil authority and WHINSEC teaches the same catagory. And yes I can see where it would be logical to link WHINSEC to the SOA article and state the connection. But why is this article about WHINSEC almost totally filled with accusations against SOA as if it were things that WHINSEC are presently doing. They are two different schools. If there are accusations against WHINSEC and their it documentation then fine. But to repeatedly over and over again talk about SOA activities like they are WHINSEC activites is dishonest and defaming. This article so extremely biased and does not reflect the wonderful work WHINSEC is doing today. I am asking that all materials regarding SOA and their former activities be moved to the SOA article and that WHINSEC be given an opportunity to post what they are presently doing at the school. I investigated the school for over eight years. I traveled to the school and interviewed teachers, students, and administration asking the hard questions. I find it rather insulting to have materials I put on here dismissed and deleted saying I have no documentaion. I am that documentation having researched it. While other organizations are given credibility when they are simply repeating accusations. In investigation SOA I was told that while there was inappropriate materials given to the student that is was by accident and part of a reading list of materials that were not vetted before including them. I was told that they were never used as text books and never taught from. If that is not true than if that accusation is to be made surely after over 61000 students attended the school some former student somewhere can be found to say: I was taught this at the school. I read all kinds of accusations but I never read about any eye witnesses to it. Are there such witnesses out there willing to say it was done? I have never heard of any and would gladly accept such information as part of my research. So what we have is organization like SOA Watch and Amnesty International which quotes themselves in their accusations and because its repeated enough times its accepted as documentation. Did anyone stop to consider why so many congressional inquiries were completed and nobody was cited or prosecuted for any wrong doing? So what happened? Were all of them corrupt and all of the investigations biased and all of their outcomes rigged? And do you want to know why I spend so much time personally on this issue? Its because when I talk to people like SOA Watch and get letters back from those sitting in jail who were arrested when presented with the facts their reply shows they don't really care if what I tell them is true or not. That's right and I quote: "Even if what you say is true we simply don't want the US military training anyone." So its not about ending human rights abuse and stopping torture thinking the WHINSEC is promoting and teaching such things. Its about a dislike for the US military and any information used no matter how biased, defaming or just plain wrong is properly used for the cause. WHINSEC is in fact actively helping to prevent torture and human rights abuses. Their program on human rights protections is being taught to every student and instructors are returning to their countries and teaching it to their military, police, and administration. Democracy, the type we have where people can speak their minds and protest is being taught as a valuable move forward in the progress of a nation. I spend so much time on this subject because if the school were to be closed I truly believe it would be a blow to human rights protections and people would be tortured, hurt, and killed who would otherwise have been spared such a fate. Rev. Kent Svendsen Advisor WHINSEC 2000-2004 Board Of Vistors member 2004-2008 peace and justice advocate and retired Army Chaplain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChaplainSvendsen (talk • contribs) 19:47, 4 December 2010 (UTC)