Talk:Age of Enlightenment

Inclusion of Alexis de Tocqueville under Important Figures

Hard to understand why he is included as an "Important Figure" of the Age of Enlightenment - the article states the Age as being from mid 17th century to 1804 at the latest, yet de Tocqueville lived from 1805 to 1859. Suggest removal.

24.13.34.10 (talk) 04:51, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Why the 'social democracy' box ?

Why the 'social democracy' box ? OK I understand that social democracy was influenced by the Enlightenment but so were liberalism, anarchism, human right movement,... I don't see what makes it special on social democracy. If there's a reason please tell me, if not, either all (major) ideologies/movements/... should get a box (could be a bit to much, I guess) or none should get one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.195.221 (talk) 10:12, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, many, many things stem from the Enlightenment. It is somewhat disturbing to see that box and those behind it, in an attempt to 'muscle-in' and claim the Enlightenment as 'belonging to "social democracy"'. Little POV pushers, the Enlightenment does not belong to you!

I mean, you don't see the Mitsubishi motor's timeline beginning with, say, the wheel.

I notice their 'Social democracy' box contains 'Orthodox Marxism'. I'm guessing Marxism-on-paper is what they mean, because Marxism-in-practice usually results in an enormous number of, well... dead bodies.

Curiously, I notice in their box a conspicuous absence of any mention of, ahem... Gulag.

If there were to be any ideas that are worthy candidates for having their own 'box' on the Enlightenment page, they might be Freedom of expression, or Scientific method.

But in reality, the Enlightenment is too big and important to have any little POV pushing subgroupings lay claim to it.

The box should be begone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WantonTree (talk • contribs) 03:30, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Excellent points from WantonTree. Additionally, there is no source for this spurious and sweeping generalization: "The intellectual and philosophical developments of that age (and their impact in moral and social reform) aspired towards governmental consolidation, centralization and primacy" ...etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki truth enlighten (talk • contribs) 02:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

There needs to be a concerted effort by moderators to request Marxists and Socialist Democrats to keep their activist agendas off a great many of the wiki entries. The discussion here makes valid points about the problems. In addition to an "enormous number of dead bodies" the Marxist ideologue has a consistent tendency to censor, and turn definitions into their opposites. Marxist relationship to factual and logical methods are on a par with Radical Religious Fundamentalism. Perhaps the longstanding tradition of intellectual dishonesty should be included in its own "Box" for a wiki entry called "Cult Methods," "Mind Control, "pseudo science," and "criminal philosophies to enslave the masses."

I am all for Marxists working on their own entry for Marxism. It might have a heading at the top that says "enter at your own risk." Each time a non-Marxist comes in to contribute some factual information, or edit any skewed paraphrases that contain logical fallacies - the Marxists can execute that contributor immediately and obsequiously report their blood lust do-goodings to their Dictator, "Moral Leader, and Teacher.' Maybe the Central Bankster will write them a check once in a while. Let's invite Scientologists, Moonies, Marxists, Radical Fundamentalists of every stripe, and every other member of the Malignant Narcissistic Personality Disorder Collective - to opt out of the business of explaining or imposing their version of reality onto any number of online world pedia entries when said pedia is founded on healthy human cognitive functions and needs. A few of these needs include pesky little things like facts, objectivity, context that illuminates the topic, on its own merit, rather than promotes activist agenda. O, and, of course, some accurate History would also be nice. Thanks. Wiki truth enlighten (talk) 05:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)````

You might want to actually read the article before posting rants on talk pages. The social democracy box was removed a long time ago. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You might want to "actually read" the history and notice that I've contributed handily to this article - that my remarks are not a rant but point directly to the problem that relates absolutely to the same attitude that brought this box discussion to the fore. "Thinking inside the box" is precisely the right place for my remarks pertaining to this problem. You might also make a note that I'm already in this discussion a few passages up. I'm aware of what is going on as do those I'm mentioning. I realize there is a strong need by some to air their unconscious marxist sensitivity to any outspoken reproach or criticism of marxism. I'm sure the sensitivity is tough to live with. But let's keep it in the shrink's office where it belongs. We're dealing with real history here. Wiki truth enlighten (talk) 07:08, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not quite what you are getting at, but it seems to have nothing to do with this article, so please take it to a forum outside of Wikipedia, if you still feel the need for airing your opinions on random subjects. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Britain

I think Britain should be changed to England and Wales, because of the Scottish Enlightenment being another large topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.27.117 (talk) 21:53, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree - this piece comes across as too closely aligned with Roy Porter's ridiculous revisionist English nationalist presentation of the Enlightenment in the UK, which is noteworthy only as part of the recent school of anglo-saxon revisionism typified by the blatantly erroneous effusions of various rabid english nationalists in UK academia these days who nevertheless the broadcast media and publishing houses allow to parade their highly partial and distorted views without any consideration of their bias. Just say England here rather than Britain and perhaps have a link to the Scottish Enlightenment page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.115.25 (talk) 23:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Updates to Article

Hello everyone. From a historiographical point of view, this article needs updating. Specifically, there is no description of the historiography of this period, nor are there any references to the vast amount of work on the social interpretation of the Enlightenment. I understand that a lot of people have put hard work into making this article what it is currently - it is not my intention to criticize the work that has been done so far. I would like to underline that I am not proposing any modification to the existing article - I am simply adding new information. But this new information is necessary.

I have written a series of additions to address these problems. My work is essentially a series of summaries and syntheses (within Wikipedia standards) of prominent Enlightenment historians. I have been criticized for being too academic; however, my articles are no more academic than other wikipedia articles, such as the Public Sphere. I have provided citations for every piece of information referenced. Nevertheless, for the time being I will refrain from editing this article until I have completed more revisions.

When I do re-submit my updates, please do not delete them out of hand. Instead, inform me and others what your specific problems are. That way, the article can be updated in a way that satisfies everyone's expectations. --JPSCastor (talk) 01:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I have also been accused of writing my own analysis instead of that of the historians. This is not the case. There is a reason why I have cited almost every paragraph that I have or am going to add.

--JPSCastor (talk) 04:47, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Good work! I've been intending to update this article for a while, but never seem to find the time. You've done a great job. As a history PhD student focusing on Enlightenment philosophy, I think your historiographical additions are highly valuable. Kudos. -- Palthrow (talk) 04:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! I am a history student myself (as you may imagine!). I'm glad that you approve, as you probably know more about enlightenment philo than I do (hence my lack of updates concerning the intellectual side of things).--JPSCastor (talk) 03:38, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Separate article for key figures

Just a proposal that came to me, for others to consider implementing. Would it be a better idea to create on the key figures of the enlightenment, currently a component of the article. A category such as this is really endless and likely to expand exponentially, so should we not perhaps create a separate article, where the discussion of the key figures will probably be able to develop a better structure, leaving this article to discussion of the general themes and progress of the period? I think this would also be better than incorporating the key figures discussion into the text, since then the article would be in danger of developing an old-fashioned "great thinkers" approach and sidenlining wider historical processes.Nwe (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Excuse for the Enlightenment

Where's the main ideas of the Enlightenment and it's affects on society in this article? All I see is history of it and some random uninteresting subjects dealing with it. What happened to the lesser-religious cause it had? And the improving of science? That is what the Enlightenment is all about at it's core. And next to nothing of it is here. This is really a terrible article for such a grand period of time. 98.28.163.219 (talk) 15:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Pictures

Just a thought: Pictures of people, places, etc, would enhance this article quite a bit. I started with one, but others would be welcome additions. Hires an editor (talk) 00:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Sacred Circle

Someone removed my request for clarification without clarifying, so I put it back. What I'm saying is that it's not immediately apparent what a "sacred circle" is, and if you want to use this quote you have to explain what the phrase means. FYI check out what happens when you try to pull up "sacred circle" on wikipedia. Either this quote needs to be deleted or someone needs to explain what a "sacred circle" is.Yonderboy (talk) 23:12, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Proposed template changes

See here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Over-reliance on one source

I note that the section on Freemasonry relies almost exclusively on Margaret Jacob as a source. This needs to change. It is never a good idea to base an entire section on just one source. While Jacob is certainly reliable, there are other scholars that would disagree with some of what she says. These contrary viewpoints need to be included to balance the article. Blueboar (talk) 12:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Good point -- I reduce the text, added new material, and broadened to include other sources, such as Palmer, who dispute the Jacob's argument.Rjensen (talk) 10:15, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Much of that was excellent... but the over all change was a bit much to swallow in one gulp. Let's slow down and take it one step at a time. One question that I would love to see addressed is whether Freemasonry influenced the Enlightenment... or whether the Enlightenment influenced Freemasonry. Blueboar (talk) 14:22, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

    Freemasonry did influence the enlightment  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.100.51.77 (talk) 00:59, 13 October 2010 (UTC) 

Reason or Enlightenment?

The introduction contains the statement "most historians consider the Age of Reason to be a prelude to the ideas of the Enlightenment". But I can't see that the reference by Hackett does any more than treat the terms as rough synonyms. More typically the article by Frost suggests that the Enlightenment is part of a larger Age of Reason. But the latter Wiki article is a sorry affair, not much more than a list.

In addition the lead section gives the impression that it centres on the revolutionary period whereas most comment sees that period as its swansong. Could things not be a little more balanced? Including possibly redirecting "Age of Reason" to this article? Chris55 (talk) 09:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Most sources I have read discerns between the Age of Reason, which is placed in the 17th century, and the Age of Enlightenment, which mostly played out during the 18th century. So I don't think redirecting Age of Reason to this article would be correct. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

While the enlightenment certainly peaks in the 18th century most treatments I've seen put its roots firmly in the 17th. e.g. Hooker's article which is used in the article to justify a mid-18th century start is actually talking about the 17th Century and writes "in the spirit of not dating the Enlightenment". Hackett mixes the two and indeed says 'The eighteenth century was primarily an "Age of Reason,"'. In fact the "Timespan" section settles for a start of the enlightenment between 1637 and 1687 and an end with the French Revolution - which I am happy with.

The philosophes of the 18th century who produced the encyclopédie were the epitome of men of reason. I suspect that the real problem is that Tom Paine hijacked the term "The Age of Reason" and people are reluctant to use it. But it's strange to limit it to the 17th century. What are your sources? Chris55 (talk) 15:56, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, several standard dictionaries associate "Age of Reason" with the 18th century, not the 17th.

American Heritage Dictionary: An era in which rationalism prevails, especially the period of the Enlightenment in England, France, and the United States

Collins English Dictionary: (Historical Terms) (usually preceded by the) the 18th century in W Europe See also Enlightenment

Wordnet 3.0: Enlightenment, Age of Reason - a movement in Europe from about 1650 until 1800 that advocated the use of reason and individualism instead of tradition and established doctrine; "the Enlightenment brought about many humanitarian reforms" i.e. Enlightenment and Age of Reason form a synset.

On this basis, the redirection is simply wrong. Chris55 (talk) 16:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't dispute that fact that the Age of Enlightenment by most historians is said to have begun or has roots in the late 17th century, I only dispute the fact that most historians equate the historiographical terms Age of Reason and the Age of Enlightenment. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

It would not be illogical to call the "Age of Enlightenment" the "Age of Reason", it was probably the favorite expression for the era used by the enlightenment thinkers themselves (much more popular than "enlightenment"). I guess the division of the "Age of Reason" (also "Age of Rationalism", hinting at the application of rationalism to theology in the first half of the 17th century) and "Age of Enlightenment" is not so much a historiographical term, but more applied in the history philosophy, where "rationalism" as a school of thought appeared in the 17th century, and is distinct though heavily influenced the various age of enlightenment schools of thought of the 18th century (See this). I guess the term as used specifically for the 17th century was popularised by Will Durant, and that this distinction has been accepted by some, but apparently not to a degree that it can be used exclusively for one period or another without a disclaimer (see for example this). As such I guess it would not be unacceptable to include mention of the term here, but the ambiguitiy of it ought to be stressed. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:23, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to Will Durant, but I don't think a popular American writer ranks alongside the Oxford Dictionary. As for the Timeline it's a tertiary source like Wikipedia from which it may have got the idea. I haven't heard much mention of "The Age of Rationality", nor "Age of Enlightenment" for that matter—it's usually called the Enlightenment. Chris55 (talk) 11:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

I haven't heard of any "Age of Rationality" either, but the "Age of Enlightenment" is pretty common, however I don't know what your point is with that. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

True, my typo! As far as googling goes, "The Enlightenment" gives 1,810,000 hits,"Age of Enlightenment" 413,000, "Age of Rationalism" 43,900 (and "Age of Rationality" 10,300!). "Age of Reason" gives 2,260,000 incidentally. Since enlightenment with a definite article usually refers to the same thing, I think that does indicate its popularity. Chris55 (talk) 12:05, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Why did it occur when and where it did?

Why did the Enlightenment occur in 18th century Europe? Why then? Why not elsewhere, or at a different time? It would be nice to include a section on the best research on and analyses of this topic, contending perspectives, etc.