Talk:Cult film

Cult Following

There's significant overlap between this page and Cult following. There should be some rationalisation between the two and/or at least a link. --Anarchangel23 (talk) 04:46, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

References and POV concern

I flagged the film list on this article as unreferenced because there are currently no citations in that section verifying that the specific films in that list meet a consensus definition of having cult status. At best these films might appear in a list of cult films on one of the external links at the end of the article. Note though that even if a citation to a specific source is provided indicating that something is a cult film, that still leaves open point of view concerns on whether or not a specific film is "cult". It is certainly possible that a film is listed as "cult" on one critic's list, for example, but other critics do not consider it a "cult" film.

The bottom line, though, is that the list included in this article has no footnotes or citations indicating it is drawn from external, verifiable published sources. Dugwiki 20:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I reinserted this tag as it was removed without comment or correction. Please do not remove the unref tag until references are provided to verify that the listed films are generally considered "cult films" by the film industry. Dugwiki 22:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I once again had to reinsert the unreferenced tag that was removed without comment and without additional references being added to the article to very the list of films has consensus in the industry as being "cult films". Since the situation hasn't improved, and I don't like the idea of having to keep reinserting this tag, I posted asking for feedback on this section of the article at WP:Films. Eventually what needs to happen is either a) references are added to verify the films have consensus in the industry as having cult status, or b) the section should be deleted as something that is subjective and unreferenced (ie cult status is in the eye of the beholder adding it to the list). I'd recommend giving feedback and comments at that talk page so the discussion remains in one place. Thanks! Dugwiki 16:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Can someone help with citations on the list of cult films? I know a back issue of entertainment weekly had a list of the top 100 cult films of all time, there is also a large book called "Cult FLicks and Trash Pics" that I've read but do not have. This book is an encyclopedia of hundreds of cult films. If someone could track these down and use them for citation that would be great. Most of the films, actors, and directors that were on the lists removed from the article are in there DASA2 2:08, 13 February 2007

That's certainly a step in the right direction. However, keep in mind that in addition to the reference problem there was the issue of subjectivity. "Cult FLicks and Trash Pics" could simply be one particular author's subjective opinion on what films he feels should be considered cult films. In addition, as a more minor technical note, you have to be a little careful posting published lists because they might be copyrighted.

My best current suggestion for the moment is, if you want, to maintain the previously deleted lists on your user page instead of in the article space. That way you can add or remove films as desired without having to worry as much about objectivity. Then put a link to your user page here on the talk page so other interested editors can add to it as well. Later, down the road, if the POV and reference issues can be addressed, then you can maybe try and recreate the material in article space. Dugwiki 17:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, my two cents - the lists should just be removed completely. Maybe eventually one simple list of commonly recognized cult films that fit the more specific definition this article needs could be added. Mondo68 06:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed lists of cult films, cult actors and cult directors per afd consensus

Per the afd discussions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cult films and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of cult film actors, I have removed the recently recreated lists for cult films, cult actors and cult directors. Those lists are unverifiable original research and have inherent subjectivity issues (they are basically lists based almost solely on individual editors' opinions on what and who has "cult" status). Please do not recreate or revert those lists without discussing here, and the consensus appeared strong on afd that the lists were inappropriate for Wikipedia inclusion. Thanks. Dugwiki 16:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

By cleaning up this article and making more straightforward, fact-based, with verifiable sources, creating good cult film, cult actor, and cult director lists will be easier. But first things first, this whole thing needs to be revised Mondo68 06:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello

that was really annoying

I really enjoyed browsing through that list

Is there any way for me to get a copy of the list of films that was there? I hadn't finished reading the list —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.54.106.121 (talk) 00:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, up on the page, you can see a flag called "History", alternatively you can click on this link. If you click on the different versions, let's say one that was changed a couple of days ago, you can access the information (see that specific version). --MoRsE (talk) 08:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi If I remember correctly that list was on a separate page something like "list of cult movies" I can't find anything in the history so maybee its in the history for a page that has been deleted If anyone knows anything about what happened to it either the person who wrote the list or the person who deleted it any info would be much appreciated

According to my definition of a cult movie that list was spot on, I've been trying my best to buy, rent and download the films

If someone could copy and paste the list into this discussion page I can do some research and try and find citations and references for the films on the list

thanks alot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.136.139.253 (talk) 11:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Citations and defining cult film

I have a large collection of books and magazines on the subject of cult movies and would be glad to help provide a more well-defined definition of "cult film" for this article. Mondo68 07:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The Problem of the Rocky Horror Precedent

I think a lot of the misconceptions about what "cult film" is derives from the precedent set by the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Because it has long beeen held up as a kind of prototypical example of cult, many have assumed that what made it cult was the fact that it attracted an obsessed, participatory audience. Based on that precedent, people have concluded that Star Wars is a cult film. Another aspect of RHPS that a lot of people have latched on to is the repeated viewings. Of course, in the days when RHPS was building its reputation as a cult film, repeated viewings took a lot more effort and dedication than they do today. Tarantino fanboys watch Pulp Fiction over and over, sometimes in groups, and quote lines of dialogue to each other. Because of the similarity of that behavoir to the RHPS precedent, Pulp Fiction is often mis-labeled a cult movie. I would contend that RHPS was an entirely unique phenomenon in the cult movie culture. It made its own rules, and is not especially representative of cult movies as a whole.

To me, a cult movie fan was someone who was first and foremost an avid film fanatic who searched for new and unique cinematic experiences and in the process would champion little known and underapreciated films, not watch the same handful of popular (or even semi-popular) movies over and over again.

Any thoughts?

Mondo68 08:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment of how Rocky Horror Picture Show has often led to the misuse of the term cult film, leading people to believe that it merely means a fanatical devotion and involvement. Pulp Fiction, Star Wars, etc. shouldn't be classified as cult films. The OED defines "cult" as "fringe, non-mainstream" and having "appeal to a relatively small audience". (I have pasted the full definition at the bottom of this discussion page.) Ironically, (IMHO) RHPS long ago lost its status as a cult film once its following became so large. Proclivities (talk) 20:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

In Need of a TOTAL Re-Do

I would like to start REALLY cleaning up this article. Straightforward, fact-based, with references and verifiable sources.

Mondo68 06:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Most of the article appears to be pretty well written, although I have had to occasionally redelete the "lists of cult actors/directors/films" that were previously removed as being too subjective (the lists are unreferenced and very much a matter of editorial opinion). Most recently they appear to have been readded by an unregistered editor. Dugwiki 20:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the lists should be removed.

I think the article could be much better. It kind of rambles from point to point and doesn't feel cohesive. Also there are many subjective comments and little (no?) attribution.

Mondo68 03:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I could not concur more completely. This article should be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up. It is a personal, subjective, idiosyncratic, and largely ill-informed POV of what "cult" means as applied to film. Check out the OED definition below - "fringe, non-mainstream." That dictionary is the best and most general arbiter of definition in English, and by its dicta nearly none of this article is relevant to the proper use of "cult" by real film devotees, critics, and historians. Night of the Living Dead and Reefer Madness? Most certainly. But major studio releases by directors like Kubrick, Ridley Scott, Speilberg and others mentioned as cult???? 2001, Blade Runner, A Clockwork Orange - these were major studio productions, major releases, much discussed at the times of their releases and ever since, and seen by tens of millions over the years. You just can't stretch the word "cult" in ANY definition to fit about 70% of what is in this article. Add to that the wretched writing noted below and you have a perfect example of why no one past high school age (unfortunately) can take Wikipedia seriously. It is just distressing to read this.Sensei48 (talk) 05:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

And where did the editor author get the idea that the term was invented (or anything other than simply employed) by Danny Peary around 1980? The term was in common usage when I was coming of age as a student of film in the 1960s, and I have books on film from the 1940s that use it extensively. Further, a quick look at Peary's nominations for films with cult status reaffirms what I said above - there are virtually no A level major studio releases among his initial examples.Sensei48 (talk) 13:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

'Pretty well written'? This is possibly the worst article I've read on Wikipedia, on writing quality alone. It not just rambles - all over - but repeats itself (in the introduction, in various other parts), sometimes contradicts itself ("A cult film can often been widely regarded and had been successful upon its early release") and is full of vague generalizations/hand-waving. It needs to be redone for sure, at least the intro and the general overview. -76.172.41.63 21:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

To make it a better reference for a casual visitor, a chart with the name of the movie, the year of release and the MPAA rating would be an excellent resource. 99.225.244.235 (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Repetitive

This article is a bit too repetitive. It mentions obsessive followings and initial movie failure a bout 3 times in the first 15 lines. ArdClose (talk) 00:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Depending on Definition

The main aspect which defines a cult film, to me, is its relative obscurity, as if it were some sort of secret which only a small group of devotees knew about. It is not always that the films failed financially or were just poorly made, sometimes it is issues of distribution. And Soon the Darkness or the original version of The Wicker Man are examples of cult films, or even midnight movies, that were just never widely distributed, but developed followings after videos and DVD's became available.
I have pasted one definition of cult from the Oxford English Dictionary below:

Designating cultural phenomena with a strong, often enduring appeal to a relatively small audience; (also) designating this appeal or audience, or any resultant success; fringe, non-mainstream. Hence: possessing a fashionable or exclusive cachet; spec. (of artistic figures or works) having a reputation or influence disproportionate to their limited public exposure or commercial success. Freq. in cult figure, cult status.

I think that this definition can help clear up what determines whether a particular film a cult film or not. However, as this heading suggests, it still depends on what one's definition is. "The Nightmare Before Christmas" or "Dr. Strangelove" may have cult followings, but IMHO, I do not consider them "cult films", mainly because there appeal is not limited "to a relatively small audience". Proclivities (talk) 21:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Star Wars and Star Trek may have cult followings (a few dedicated members that take it further than normal viewers and get into costumes and attend conventions) but they are not (and never will be) cult movies because they began as commercial successes. A cult film needs to start as a commercial misunderstood flop that is either too complex or too far removed from society to be popular upon release. A relatively small number of dedicated fans need to do to the grassroots evangelism needed to encourage people to give it a second chance on DVD. Esptoronto (talk) 15:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

picture Camping Cosmos - belgian cult movie

Why was this image removed, without warning and without mention in "history"?Karel leermans (talk) 17:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:DonnieDarkoStill.jpg

The image Image:DonnieDarkoStill.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• Image:Rocky Horror 2.JPG

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --02:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

What?

"Another example is the place of The Wizard of Oz (1939) in white American homosexual culture, although a widely viewed and historically important film in greater American culture."

Anybody have a source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.152.32.92 (talk) 22:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

No source, but they probably meant Judy Garland as gay icon.

are links forbidden to be added?

I'm trying to add www.cultreviews.com to the external links section, but apparantly it gets undone every time. Is there anything I'm missing about links? A site that covers Cult Movies is pretty relevant I thought. 81.83.108.30 (talk) 19:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The main article's Talk page is a good place to put this in. If somebody can come up with a public citation referring to the website [1], it can be moved to the main page because it would then be sourced. In the meantime, leave it here if you think it will improve the main page, but just don't have a citation for it yet. In the meantime, there are a lot of people who check this out, and one of them may know of a famous celebrity (or anybody at all) who mentioned the website in public. That would be enough to make it sourced. Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 08:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's not correct. Mentioning a website in public by anyone does not make it a WP:RS, and a site with user-generated content such as this one will not qualify as a citable source. Sensei48 (talk) 11:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Where is Repo Man?

Perhaps the greatest cult film of all time, this movie needs to be mentioned somewhere on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.255.150.131 (talk) 07:53, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd support Repo Man being a cult movie. I also noticed that Big Trouble in Little China is missing. Esptoronto (talk) 15:38, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion

How about putting Sunset Boulevard as another example of Cult films? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.134.5.12 (talk) 15:30, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Hindi Cult films.

Rehna Hai tere Dil mein, and Hera Pheri cult films???? Care to justify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitinblr (talk • contribs) 07:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Beginning Clean-Up 4/6/09

Clearly editors have put a lot of work into creating this article, but flagrantly and I assume in good faith in violation of many, many Wiki principles too numerous to list here in their entirety. In addition to the clear violations of WP:OR and WP:NPOV, the complete lack of sourcing for the selections of cult films, the unsourced and flat out wrong attribution of term and concept to a single writer in 1980 when both existed as early as the 1940s, and the unintentionally funny but incredibly off-base designation of some of the most influential and debated films of all time (anything by Kubrick, for starters - though there would be a much better case to be made for the relatively less-seen Paths of Glory than for landmark films recognized as such at the time of their release and ever since likeA Clockwork Orange or 2001: A Space Odyssey) as cult just cannot remain uncorrected unless they are sourced as such...

...and more carefully sourced than here in the article. The references for both footnotes 1 and 2 do not demonstrate what the article purports that they do, supporting instead the more commonly understood definition of the term cult. Here is what the reference to the Allmovie Guide actually says:

Generally a cult film is one that has minimal popular appeal but has a great following with a select group within the public sphere. This genre generally has a following on college campuses or late night audiences and elicits audience participation in the form of responsorial dialogue, costuming and props. [2]

This is at least oblique to and closer to contradictory to this article's attempt to include A level major studio releases (like Kubrick's) that have generated extensive attention and comment from the time of their release onward.

The AMC filmsite ref reads as follows:

Cult films have limited but very special appeal. Cult films are usually strange, quirky, offbeat, eccentric, oddball, or surreal, with outrageous, weird, unique and cartoony characters or plots, and garish sets. They are often considered controversial because they step outside standard narrative and technical conventions. They can be very stylized, and they are often flawed or unusual in some striking way.

Most cult films cut across many film genres (science fiction, horror, melodrama, etc.), although some film genres are also more prone to being cultish, such as the horror or sci-fi genres. Teen comedies are also more often rated as cult films, such as Dazed and Confused (1993), and Fast Times at Ridgemont High (1982), with quotable lines of dialogue, and memorable characters and scenes.

Many cult films feature or effectively showcase the performance of newcomers or other unknown talented actors/actresses. These often-obscure and cheesy films are usually made by maverick, highly individualistic film-makers with low-budget resources and little commercial marketing. And cult films are rarely, if ever, sequels, since then they would have attained mainstream appeal and widespread success. Some directors are more prone to making cult films, such as John Waters, Quentin Tarantino and David Lynch, especially early in their careers, because of their individualistic perspective and style, although they can often make a conventional 'mainstream' film too (such as David Lynch's The Straight Story (1999)). [3]

Many of the films on the list in the lede that I reverted fall in no way under either of these rubrics.

Much, much more needs to be done with this article, some of it correcting errors of fact as above and more of it having to establish an agreed-upon rubric for what does (and equally importantly does not) constitute a cult film. So....more to come. Sensei48 (talk) 05:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Caddyshack

Where is Caddyshack!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.81.197.249 (talk) 20:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It's very difficult to think of this as a cult film - it was commercially successful and has had a very large and appreciative audience since its release. That's not "cult."Sensei48 (talk) 20:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Fight Club?

Fight Club not only has a cult but it has a militia, it deserves a mention in the section about the newer flicks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.178.145 (talk) 17:55, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, the "militia" is precisely what makes it not a cult film. By any definition, a film with a large and devoted following - which certainly defines major release and frequently broadcast Fight Club - isn't "cult" - see the discussions above on this page. Several editors have tried repeatedly to correct the misimpression that any film that excites intense allegiance is "cult." That term as noted on this page and in the article connotes a smaller group of devotées and a much lower public profile than FC. Sensei48 (talk) 18:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Notability

Cult film is clearly WP:Notable. User:Piano non troppo claims "The issue is that the allmovie reference provided defines term in such a way that's it's impossible to identify what is and what is not 'cult'". Many notable things are not completely unambiguous. For example, cult itself is not precisely defined, some people believe that the Falun Gong is a cult, some do not. Yet the idea of a cult is clearly notable. The reason is that there are many things we can say about "cult-like behavior". Likewise cult film is clearly notable because there are many things that we can say about cult films, they often have poor reception in theaters and then become spectacularly popular over time gaining a following that is often irrational about there love of the movie, cult-like, etc. For those who like to ref the WP:MOS, this topic has significant coverage in WP:Reliable Sources. Cheers, — sligocki (talk) 02:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to locate a cult film

but some nut keeps nominating the lists of cult films for deletion.

I can understand keeping a wiki link off of the article's main page, but the talk page is the best place to put a list of this kind, especially if it relates to improving the main page.

Just because a list may, arguably, be "original" research doesn't mean it really is. So if you find it on the Main page, move it over to the Talk page, instead of nominating it for deletion. There may be a lot more people here than you first realize, and any one of them could come up with a citation to go with the reference.

---

What was the name of the cult film about a girl that was cursed with eternal life underwater as a giant turtle? All I can remember, is that it was a made-for-television film, and it had a very nice soundtrack, based on a piece of classical music. And the director might have been a Japanese guy hired by ABC or CBS to do the direction. If you know the name of the film, maybe you can also find a reference to someone who publicly called it a "Cult Film"? Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 08:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

---

I do believe I heard someone say that Dr. Strange (1978 film) was a cult film. But if I could remember who told me, and if words to that effect were in print, why, that would count as a reference I could cite.

---

When my oldest brother was in Anaheim, California, a cult asked him to come over to their place and watch Brother Sun, Sister Moon with them, with the implied promise they would take care of him after he signed away all his future income to them. There were bunkbeds all over the place, and it struck him they were some kind of a cult or other. There were rows and rows of chairs with hoboes and bums in them. Does that make that movie a cult film, if it is used as a propaganda piece for swelling the ranks of their penniless followers? He ended up bored out of his mind when he was forced to watch the film, and walked off after it was over, or perhaps before it was over, even though they wanted to get some money out of him. Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 08:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Hello Dexter. I agree that moving unsourced lists of cult films to the talkpage is preferable to straight removal. As for your questions about cult films, you will probably have better luck finding answers at our entertainment reference desk, where such things are handled. Regards,  Skomorokh  12:23, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Tron (1982)

The original 1982 Tron should be added - it's a true cult classic --KpoT (talk) 00:17, 3 January 2011 (UTC)