Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 February 16

I do not fully understand how notability criteria at WP:CORP affects the entry, since most companies in Comparison_of_file_hosting_services. Considering and "Deletion of articles" reasoning for consistency at WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS I ask politely to restore the page from User:Roberto_valerio/CloudSafe to common space. Direct admin contact is not possible right now since the page was marked protected. Roberto valerio (talk) 14:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Roberto, you need to be aware of both WP:CORP and WP:N. Without reasonable independent third party sources, it is very unlikely this article will be moved to main space. I'd have to imagine the company has seen some news coverage, either in local press or trade press. If you can find such articles (be they on-line or not) that provide significant coverage of the company, then we'll likely end up with an article here. Please feel free to ask me, or pretty much anyone else who hangs out here, for guidance or clarification. Hobit (talk) 16:40, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We need at least some indication of importance: market share is one possibly notable aspect, business awards are another, product reviews are a third. But not just what's in the article in the cache, a statement that the company exists. In any of these cases, it has to be shown by third party sources. If you can show these sorts of things, and have suitable reliable sources, then try to write an article. But not otherwise. DGG ( talk ) 04:32, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reject recreation based on current draft. I echo DGG's recommendations — please show notability with third-party verification. Stifle (talk) 09:20, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I found a few online repositories to the first coverage in print publications: "Hakin9" (print, german), "t3n" (print, german), "PC World" (print, polish). Then some blog coverage at AppStorm, Online Backup Dir, Online Tech Tips . Please give me advice what else is necessary to equal the companies on Comparison_of_file_hosting_services. Regards, Roberto valerio (talk) 12:30, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

going down the list, 1. exactly where in Hackin9 is CloudSafe mentioned? 2. is merely a statement that it exists, & is not substantial coverage. Furthermore it lists it as a startup, and startups usually need some time to become notable 3. is a PR release from the company, not an independent source. 4. This one is a full review. Blogs are not usually RSs, but in computers some can be, and this seems to be by a staff reviewer. If we can recognize this blog as a good authority this would be half-way there, but I'm not familiar with it. 5. is a mere directory listing 6. is an elementary comparison of 3 services, listing cloudsafe along with 2 very notable services. Its a fairly well known how-to site. Personally, I think 4 & 6 make enough. , though I'm sure someone will challenge it if at least one such review isn't from an actual edited computer magazine or the like. Any info on market share, btw? DGG ( talk ) 23:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lorenzo Iorio

I must state in advance that I am not acquainted with all the subtleties and policies of Wikipedia concerning similar issues.

I tried to resolve the issue of the recreation of the page about Iorio with the administrator who originally deleted this page, but without success. In my opinion, the substantial problems with this page were: 1) there was a sockpuppetry issue during the previous discussion. After I asked for a recreation, the administrator asked me if I was another sockpuppet, which is not the case. 2) It seems that Iorio has a current lingering conflict of interest with another Italian scientist active in the same field; the anonymity of editors and administrators should have made the rest.

One of the critical issues during the previous deletion discussion was that the h-index of Iorio, along with his publication record, compared to that of other researchers, was not high enough. Now, the situation is different since, as it turns out from the NASA ADS database, his h-index, number of citations, etc. are of the same level of, or even larger than, those of other researchers active in similar fields, whose dedicated articles are present in Wikipedia.

Please consider that, in the present case, it is fully meaningful to compare articles pertaining researchers working in the about same field.

Another critical issue was that the deleted page was substantially a sort of promotional CV online. The page I have in mind would be substantially different, much shorter. In practice, I would take as examples the existing articles about other researchers working in about the same field. In addition, I would include just a link to the Iorio's list of publications http://digilander.libero.it/lorri/list_of_publications.htm, his personal website http://digilander.libero.it/lorri/homepage_of_lorenzo_iorio.htm. I would also add the links concerning the several international press releases dealing with some works of him. I would also add the links to some of the distinctions received by Iorio like top cited awards by Elsevier, and so on. Such links are new, and were not available during the previous deleting discussion.

Although it may not be formally considered as a valid argument from the point of view of Wikipedia policy, I must notice that the presence of articles dedicated to other researchers not displaying the same public coverage (few or no press releases at all, no top cited awards, no most viewed articles, and so on) and with similar or smaller h-indexes, together with the absence of a similar article dedicated to Iorio, would constitute an objective and substantial lack of fairness and justice. I could make several examples. Please, notice that during the deletion discussion some of the partecipants contrary to keeping the Iorio's page actually made explicit comparisons with other articles about different researchers.

Finally, I notice that the second speedy deletion was due to a copyright problem with another site. I would easily resolve it by writing an entirely new text. Michoball (talk) 09:13, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: If you think you can make a better article which demonstrates that he meets the notability standard of WP:PROF, the best thing to do would be to make a draft in your user space at User talk:Michoball/Lorenzo Lorio, which could be considered here. Read WP:YFA before you start: I will put some useful links on your talk page. JohnCD (talk) 18:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The WP:PROF page starts by noticing that the issue of notability is "best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply". It is exactly the common sense that should be applied when I invoke meaningful comparisons with existing articles to other comparable scientists in the same field explicitly exhibiting less public coverage and comparable or smaller bibliometric indexes.

Then, the WP:PROF page continues by stating that a notable person must be, among other things, "subject of significant coverage in independent reliable secondary sources." This is just the case for L. Iorio, as shown by the various links to international and independent magazines dealing with some works of him, by the various " Top 25 Hottest Articles " and " Most viewed articles " classifications of the various academic journals published by Elsevier, Kluwer, Springer showing the ranking gained by some of his papers, and by two New Astronomy Top Cited Author awards from Elsevier.

In the WP:PROF page we read: "If an academic/professor meets any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, they are notable." Among the following criteria there are:

The person's research has made significant impact in their scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources. It is the case for L. Iorio, since the NASA ADS database, which is certainly a well renown and trustable independent reliable source, shows that his various bibliometric indexes, among which the h-index is as large as 20 (after just 10 years of scientific activity...), are objectively high and comparable to, or often higher than, those of other scientists having their articles in Wikipedia. L. Iorio is also author of an invited review article on a well estabilished academic peer-reviewed jorunal. Moreover, as I would demonstrate, L. Iorio was appointed by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences for submitting nominations for the Crafoord Prize, which is the most prestigious prize in the field of geosciences.
The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level. It is the case of L. Iorio, as I would demonstrate. He did not receive the Nobel prize. But, please notice also that the WP:PROF page specifies: "Some lesser significant academic honors and awards that confer a high level of academic prestige also can be used to satisfy Criterion 2. Examples may include certain awards, honors and prizes of notable academic societies, of notable foundations and trusts (e.g. the Guggenheim Fellowship, Linguapax Prize), etc. Significant academic awards and honors can also be used to partially satisfy Criterion 1". Actually, as I can demonstrate, L. Iorio received a prize from the Italian Physical Society, and from another international astronomical institution.
The person is or has been an elected member of a highly selective and prestigious scholarly society or association. It is the case of L. Iorio, Elected Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society, as it can be shown.
The person is or has been an editor-in-chief of a major well-established academic journal in their subject area. Indeed, L. Iorio is associated editor of an academic journal published by Bentham Science Publishers

Thus, we have here more than one of the aforementioned criteria fulfilled.

Interested editors and administrators may want to check my claims by directly looking at L. Iorio website which collects the information I am conveying here in a public, objective and verifiable way. Indeed, they will find scanned copies of most of the original documents. Other suggestions are welcome. Thank you. Michoball (talk) 20:05, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite a non-infringing version in user space, and if it looks passable, anyone can send to AfD -- for a better discussion than the 09. This was most recently deleted because of being a copy of a web site. Otherwise, I think it probably does meet WP:PROF. I don't want to recap the 2009 AfD in detail, but I do not see that there was a clear consensus to delete, nor that the discussion was adequate in discussing the extent to which the person met the WP:PROF criteria. I think the articles and citations are enough to demonstrate the person as having made an impact, going by our usual standards. The Fellowship is indeed relevant--the objection was made at the AfD that he was just a member, not a fellow. If he can be shown to be a fellow, this is an important contributing factor, though not enough by itself. But it's two years later, and perhaps things are clearer now. But I point out that editor in the sense of WP:PROF is always interpreted as editor-in-chief, not associated editor or member of an editorial board, and I would not consider any Bentham Open journal truly a major journal in any field--not a single one of them is in JCR. (Some of Betham's review journals in Pharmacology are, but they're not part of Bentham Open). (I also point out that a better discussion is more likely to be had if the case is stated without the degree of overemphasis that was present there, and for that matter here.) DGG ( talk ) 05:04, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, dear friends. I rewrote it according to your guidelines at User talk:Michoball/Lorenzo Lorio. Comments, suggestions and criticisms are welcome. Thanks Michoball (talk) 21:05, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have serious concerns about this "rewrite".

Much of it is original research, based on analysis of papers he has written. Please remove all sources except the secondary ones that actually discuss him.
Some of the biographical information is unsourced. Please provide reliable sourcing or remove it.
His "Bibliometrics" are sourced to this website: http://digilander.libero.it/lorri/bibliometrics.htm , which is Iorio's own personal website. It claims, for example, that his h-index is 20, g-index is 25, and number of citations is 633, but http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Author/5500192 gives an h-index of 6, g-index of 9, and number of citations as 180. Please explain this discrepancy, and please provide reliable secondary sourcing for these numbers.

Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:04, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please, note the following.

Please, Jay, be more specific about the alleged original research which I would have included. Do you refer to the invited chapters by him? Do you refer to the invited review by him? I could, perhpas, remove them, especially the chapters, but, on the other hand, they are all means contributing to support his notability. Consider, for example, the invited review. It is a clear sign of notability. But, now, should I remove the citation to it? So, somebody else will say that I wrote an unsourced reference...The same for the EGU talk, which also holds as media coverage: should I remove the citation to it? Moreover, Jay, I have included a complete list of secondary sources, press releases by international magazines and newspapers, which deal with Iorio's works. Very few other existing articles about scientists active in the same field can display them. This is a fact, not an opinion.
Please, explain me exactly: what bibliographical information is unsourced? Must I find somewhere on the Internet Iorio's driving license and/or his Identity Card displaying his address and his nationality? Must I find somewhere on the Internet that he actually has a degree in Physics? Ok, I've found this http://miur.academia.edu/LorenzoIorio/Teaching/15155/PhD_certification. Do you refer to the fact that I wrote that his first article in gravitational physics dates back to 2001? If so, it is easy to check in the included list of publications.
Sorry, Jay, but your remark about his bibliometrics is totally absurd, as anyone can notice. As I stated, and as it is stated in the Iorio's bibliometric page, the source of such numbers is the NASA ADS database which, permit me, Jay, is certainly much more complete, reliable and accurate than yours (just to make an example, Jay, please note the field of activity that your site attributes to Iorio...Artificial intelligence! Notice also the ridicolous lack of lots of published papers, not to say about their citations..It is so since, perhaps, it is based on Bing? Who knows) and, in this case, also of other ones like, e.g., Google Scholar, ISI Web of knowledge, Scopus whose coverage is less complete. It is well known that different databases have different coverages. For example, Google Scholar, for reasons unclear to me, attributes very few citations to a work by Iorio and Ruggiero on the Hořava-Lifshitz gravity which, instaed, has 37 citations on NASA ADS. Take the time to carefully check NASA ADS, please. Look at the definitions of h-index and g-index, go to the NASA ADS database, and check yourself by doing the required math (you will not find there a button for the h-index and the other bibliometric indexes: you must do the calculation by hand). I cannot explain here how to make bibliographic researches with NASA ADS. Anyway, you may want to carefully read http://nebulium.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/the-hirsch-index-part-1/

and make the necessary operations. Please note that, actually, how NASA ADS works is a bit strange: sometimes in a day some citations disappear, then they re-appear, and so on (mirroring issues? Regular mantainance? Bugs? Who knows). For example, right now it returned me 626 citations (self-citations excluded): I'm sure that tomorrow they will be again 633... Anyay, thank you. Nothing personal. We are all here to do our best, of course. Michoball (talk) 23:18, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, Jay. I just removed the citations to his invited chapters. Michoball (talk) 23:39, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]