Talk:Geli Raubal

Vegetarian?

Hitler was certainly not a "devout vegetarian" after 1931, and there are many proposed reasons for his vegetarianism, the most common being stomach problems. However, I've left the vegetarian bit in this article in a weaker form, not having any cites to confirm or deny it. Adking80 06:04, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERraubal.htm <-- less bias.

Das Verbot

Hitler hatte ein sexuelles Verhältnis zu seiner Nichte, obwohl er eigentlich eher schwul war. Jedenfalls hat er ihr alles mögliche verboten, woraufhin sie sich mit seiner Pistole das Leben nahm. Although Hitler was in reality gay, he had a sexual relationship with his niece. Anyways he forbid all possible things, leading her to take her own life. Simon Mayer, 4. August 2005

Note, there is zero evidence or support for any assertion that "AH was gay." There is lots of evidence he was involved in an incestuous relationship with his niece, which was socially acceptable among certain groups in the area where he grew up (his mother Klara was his father Alois' cousin on both sides of her family). Wyss 13:40, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

sorry, but I cannot understand you!

This is the English Wikipedia. Try the German one? Wyss 13:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Incest?

Use of the term incest to describe AH's relationship with GR is problematic.

• We don't know if they were ever intimate
• If they were, incest to most anglo-saxon readers would imply a criminal act, which it would not have been at that time and place
• Marriage between close cousins etc was normal in AH's family and was not illegal. His parents Alois and Klara were closely and similarly related, for example.

The evidence indicates suicide more than murder and that's the broad consensus of historians. There is zero evidence AH murdered his niece, only speculation (most of what which seems based on rumours, inuendo and/or disinformation circulating at the time and during the later 1930s, not documented facts). There is plenty of evidence she felt somehow trapped in a relationship, important details about which we do not know, and in a moment of despair took her own life with a pistol she knew to be in the Munich apartment. Wyss 00:19, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I would debate this point. Statistics show that women use firearms as a form of suicide uncommonly as a method of suicide except in the usa where firearms are readily available. even then the rate is 30%. The site using a pistol is to the head, not lung. A firearm injury to the torso is typical of a murder, not suicide even in men. Women commit suicide by poisoning. No autopsy, found 24 hours after the event for a gun shot wound in one of the most highly guarded/restricted people in germany at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephenkennethomara (talk • contribs) 01:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Is sex with a half-niece considered to be incest in modern Germany? I know that Roman Catholics need(ed) to obtain a dispensation for Uncle-Niece marriages (Hitler was, or at least started out, as a Catholic). Also, as late as the 1960's a marriage with a half-niece was not considered incest in California and no doubt other states as well. Ironically, I don't think such marriages are/were considered incestuous in Jewish marriages and I've read that there is an eastern U.S. state where such marriages are still legal for Jews. An academic observation - If such relationships were not considered incestuous under the laws in effect at the time and place, the label should be removed from the main article. In any event, Hitler was certainly a misogynist and possibly a latent homosexual. The one and only time he was seen kissing a woman on the lips was in the bunker shortly before his death. Hitler viewed women as little more than breeding stock.

Pictures that Hitler did of Geli naked are here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~wimduz/astro/geli1.htm

The article above also states that Geli told her lover that Hitler made her do things that sickened her. I'm not saying there's total evidence of him raping her or beating her, or having her whip or kick him, but there's definitely suspcious circumstances, especially since Geli supposedly committed suicide. Even that could be Hitler's doing.

I do find it odd that an older uncle would have a younger neice pose naked for him, even if it is in an artistic manner.

I do agree that in order to innocently paint one's niece naked, one would have to be so immersed in the culture of the Arts, as to be able to listen to the William Tell Overture from beginning to end without once thinking of the Lone Ranger. However...in the best traditions of fairness and balanced reporting, if one wants to blame Hilter for everything, then perhaps they should also "blame" him for the Volkswagen Beetle, singularly the most successful motor car ever. In this bloodyminded world, who ever thinks to balance the happiness that this machine has brought to hundreds of millions of people, against the misery that his political career caused? Only being balanced!(Valhalan (talk) 02:13, 11 March 2011 (UTC))

Erm, to paraphrase one historian, this sort of goggle-eyed jabbering says skeins more about the commentators than it does about AH. Gwen Gale 21:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The nature of Hitler's relationship with Geli (huge disparity of ages, servant master role, close family relationship, overly controlling, "smothering" control, violent arguments, connection to suicide etc) has great similarities of the relationship between Hitler's faither and mother. Alice Miller in her studies of child abuse suggests that Hitler was a victim of child abuse who perpetuated the abuse as an abuser in his turn (see http://www.nospank.net/fyog13.htm#introduction). Hitler's mother throughout her life, called her husband uncle. Geli did the same with Hitler. Europe was to pay the price of bringing such a man to high office. John D. Croft (talk) 12:45, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Blatantly Untrue

There's no real evidence (except testimony from Hitler's enemies) that Hitler had a relationship with Raubal. The suicide can easily be accounted for other factors -- let's not forget that it was during the Great Depression, of which Germany was hit extremely hard by. Hitler was just a big meanie everyone wants to slander. Let's not forget that Hitler was also a Homosexual Jew who had one testical. --Korey Kaczynski 21:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

To clarify my above comment (due to a recent case of an overzealous editor), I was trying to point out that rumors about Hitler having sex with Raubel are simply as unbelievable as the claims made of him being gay, Jewish, and having one testical. I wish Gwen the best in life, and hopefully he or she understands my point of view and one day we can be friends. --Korey Kaczynski 22:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no evidence Hitler was Jewish, or that he had the medical description you describe. There is plenty of evidence he was, politically speaking, as you put it, "a big meanie." It is also true that many well-meaning but perhaps otherwise thoughtless writers find it easiest to simply slander AH like a villain in a cartoon, rendering his popular perception thoroughly useless for recognizing the next murderous, "overly focused" leader of a powerful central government who comes along. As for his relationship with Geli, most serious historians accept the evidence that AH had an intimate relationship with her. This was not unusual. Truth be told, folks have been marrying their cousins through most of human history. AH's father was his mother's uncle. There isn't all that much to read into their kinship and reporting their relationship in this context isn't slander. What is meaningful is that she was one of at least three women who resorted to suicide over him. Cheers. Gwen Gale 22:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Who are these "serious historians" who believe Hitler had a relationship with Raubel? I'm certain that the information came directly from the "testimony" of people who were Hitler's political enemies (such as one guy, I forgot his name, who had his brother killed at Hitler's order). Even one of the external links lists incorrect facts (that Hitler stopped eating meat because it reminded him of Raubel is false -- he was a vegetarian because meat gave him gas).--Korey Kaczynski 22:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to flip that question. Please cite one widely published historian who has asserted they were not intimate. Gwen Gale 22:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

By the bye, I'm afraid you have the cause of AH's reported flatulence muddled. His vegetarianism gave him gas, but after Raubel's death he increasingly stayed with a diet which was, by the standards of that place and time, vegetarian. Gwen Gale 23:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there any proof of correlation with Raubel's death and him increasing vegetarianism? Either way, the meat supposedly reminding him of Raubel is probably false, unless Hitler made the claim in an effort to be poetic.--Korey Kaczynski 23:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Burden of proof lies on a person making a claim -- and Hitler having sex with Raubal is an extreme claim and seemingly poorly documented. Anyways, I don't know/remember of any specific historians who wrote on the subject other than something I read a long while ago that was far more believable that debunked the claim of Hitler having sex/relationship with Raubal. Even then, common sense, especially when there's barely any documentation on the matter, suggests that the scandal is highly unlikely and was pushed for propaganda reasons or for authors to make $$$ writing about controversial things. And many of the stories about how Hitler had sex with Raubal (sadomasochism, defecation, etc.) are simply unbelievable, especially since none of other women he was with made any claims of him having such sex, especially Eva Braun, who didn't even sleep in the same bed as the "Fuhrer."--Korey Kaczynski 23:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Since you're making all these claims, please provide citations, WP:V. Gwen Gale 23:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

It's actually more of a claim to say that he did have an "intimate relationship" with her than to ask for proof that he did have such a relationship. While "serious historians" seem to be all in agreement that Hitler was either in love or cared very deeply about his niece, there is certainly no such agreement about any physical relationship, and very reliable sources assert that she did not return his affection in a romantic way, possibly leading to her suicide, which does not either rule out or mean that she had any sort of physical relationship with him. Here is an example. The burden is actually on an editor that tries to assert that there was definitely a physical relationship to prove that with reliable sources.--Gloriamarie 19:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I think your reasoned and careful approach is helpful, Gloriamarie. IMHO the overall take you describe on whatever their relationship was (which is to say, what we can infer from the documentation and what we can't) is supported. Gwen Gale 21:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey Gwen, you seem to be pretending to be incapable of understanding. It is the one who CLAIMS that a sexual relationship took place that need to provide as much proof as possible. NOT the one who is NOT CLAIMING that something like that took place. Now if one went further and explicitly mentions that there was never a sexual relationship then that needs to be proven as much as possible also. Loginigol 11:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. Cheers. Gwen Gale 00:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way Korey...that's "Raubal" and "testicle". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valhalan (talk • contribs) 01:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Military history? Of WWII?

This may be a philosophical question, and I can be persuaded either way. Is a biographical sketch of a person who never served in the military, who held no public office, and would be unknown except for her relation to Adolf Hitler, properly considered military history? Even moreso, does it belong in World War II history, given that she died in 1931, well before Hitler came to power? Given the bare facts, I would be inclined to vote otherwise, and regard her as relevant to the general history of Germany, but not to warfare. On the other hand (here is why I can be persuaded), World War II is sometimes regarded as a result of Hitler's mind, and anything that can be said to have affected his mind is therefore fair game for the military historians. My apologies for being indecisive, but I would like to know the opinions of others. PKKloeppel (talk) 00:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't military history. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for stating what I knew to be true. I have removed the WPMILHIST banner. PKKloeppel (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguous reference of pronoun

The article currently contains this wording:

Hitler dismissed him as a result but later rehired and promoted him. Maurice later claimed that he "...loved her, but it was a strange affection that did not dare show itself."

Does the "he" in "claimed that he" refer to Maurice or to Hitler?

Rammer (talk) 03:19, 12 October 2010 (UTC)