Talk:Hollywood blacklist

New Proposed Sections

--202.67.5.18 13:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC) - request the experts to put a section regarding the reaction of public and of communist party. In particular, why communist party did not openly support or disown or sue etc. appropriate institutions and individuals.

---

OK, in addition to some other restructurings I'll be doing, I'm going to propose adding some other sections, including:

- Contemporary artistic responses to the blacklist; this would include items considered both pro and con, such as the making of "Salt of the Earth", "High Noon", "On The Waterfront", "The Crucible", and other artistic works made at the time that were (and are) thought to have been a comment on various aspects of the blacklist and McCarthy era.

- A general blacklist timeline; would begin with the Waldorf Statement, and include "watershed moments" up until maybe the 70's, when the late of the blacklisted writers got direct credit (like Ring Lardner for "M*A*S*H), and movies around that time that directly addressed the blacklist era ("The Way We Were", "The Front").

- Contemporary entertainment figures involved in the blacklist who weren't blacklisted themselves; this would be people like Walt Disney, Ayn Rand, etc.

- Present day controversies from the blacklist era, specifically mentioning the controversy and response surrounding Elia Kazan's honorary Oscar presented in 1999.

Any comments or suggestions for this, please speak up. --Dh100 21:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Overview Sourcing and Veracity Issues

OK, I just noticed that the Overview section contains allegations that "the Hollywood Ten were acting under orders by the Communist Party" and that their counsel was also paid for by the Party. I am totally unaware of any evidence for this. If somebody can provide sourcing, it can be reverted. However, I'm removing it for now.

--Dh100 22:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Questions as to Sourcing and Veracity in the Opening Paragraph

Hate to bring this up, but I have some objections/questions when it comes to the opening paragraph.

"The Hollywood blacklist was a group of film actors, directors, and screenwriters in the late 1940s and early 1950s, including at least ten who were members of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA), who were investigated by the House Un-American Activities Committee for communist activities based on information gleaned by the US and UK governments via the VENONA project (cryptanalysis of messages sent by several Soviet intelligence agencies to cells in the West)."

My comments on this are as follows:

- This opening gives the impression that the Hollywood Ten were active members of CPUSA at the time they were called before HUAC. As I recall, this is inaccurate. Many, if not all, were CPUSA members at previous moments in their past, but I'm not sure if I can recall any who were members at the time they were called before HUAC, or even at any time in their recent pasts.

- The reference to the Venona decrypts is very misleading, and quite frankly, inaccurate. There is ZERO evidence I'm aware of that the Hollywood Ten were targeted due to information given to HUAC from Venona. The big case I'm aware of where Venona was involved at the time was the Alger Hiss affair. Like McCarthy's infamous "list of names" (yes, I'm aware he was NOT on HUAC), Venona often gets glommed onto all sorts of stuff, onto contemporary events where it has no place. For example, while McCarthy's proponents tend to claim that Venona "vindicated" him, there is not a whit of evidence he was ever given so much as a scintilla of Venona intel, and his scattershot approach identified a few persons also tracked in Venona, but there's no evidence at all this is due to anything except accident. In a more salient vein to this article, I'd like to see a cite that ANY of the Hollywood Ten are so much as mentioned in the Venona decrypts at all.

--Dh100 23:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Update: a quick Google confirms what I suspected as to the involvement of Venona decrypts in the cases of the Hollywood Ten; it is essentially ZERO. The only cite I've been able to find for involvement of Venona in the cases of blacklisted Hollywood and entertainment figures as a whole involves Walter Bernstein, who was NOT a member of the Hollywood Ten. Even in his case, a rather arch-conservative source says that "the recently decoded “Venona” documents suggest that Walter Bernstein, one of those blacklisted, had offered information to the NKVD more than once." In other words, Venona doesn't contain any information of blacklisted entertainment figures being active Soviet intel assets, let alone specifically the Hollywood Ten.

Unless anybody has any objections, I'm going to make my first Wikipedia edit be a reworking of the opening paragraph to better fit reality.

--Dh100 23:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've performed my first edit on this. Let's keep Venona the heck OUT of this, as all it does is muddy the waters considerably, and in fact is a wholly specious and fact free assertion, one that frankly borders on accusation. Let's stick to what we do know, that being the facts in the case are that the Hollywood Ten were called before HUAC, cited for contempt, and jailed for it. Others were blacklisted due to non-cooperation with HUAC, or due to heresay or other items, factual, unfactual, sourced or no (being listed in "Red Channels," etc). The ONLY sourced mention of any blacklistee being mentioned in Venona decrypts is in regards to Walter Bernstein, and it was in regards to an alleged promise that he would "write a report" after interviewing Tito for "Stars and Stripes" during WWII; there were no followups in Venona to this. There are ZERO mentions of blacklistees in Venona in regards to their work in Hollywood.

I'll be making additional edits to this article over time, as while it does a decent job of giving an overview on the subject, other paragraphs aren't particularly well constructed and could use work as well.

--Dh100 02:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Question on sentence

Ten of those subpoenaed refused to give evidence, citing their First Amendment rights

Should this be Fifth Amendment rights? Deco 2 July 2005 23:46 (UTC)

No, that was the mistake they made. (On advice of legal counsel) Had they taken the Fifth, they would never have been convicted. They appealed, but the Court ruled they weren't protected by the First Amendenment. After them, everyone takes the Fifth. Ted Wilkes 17:34, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Re edit: 20:55, July 15, 2005 Nobs01 (blacklist was by producers who were members of MPAA, not the federal government (HUAC doesn't even have enforcement powers as what would be an executive branch function,assuming its Constitutional)

They were only cited, not convicted but the blacklist was implemented immediately. The appeals weren't exhausted until 1950, meantime there was more three years of investigations and more and more people blacklisted. 17:34, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Much later, when anti-Communism became less fashionable, they were sometimes portrayed as heroes for their defiance of the committee.

Portayed can be a synonym of impersonate. I think the word evokes a connotation that they were not heroes, which is not neutral. How about: Much later, when anti-Communism became less fashionable, some considered them heroes for their defiance of the committee. 9/19/2005

Not sure it fits.

While I am certain that Michael Jackson might have greater difficulty pursuing his career as a result of his recent legal troubles, I don't know that he belongs on a list of Hollywood Blacklistees, and refering to his profession as a child molester, seems to me to be approaching vandalism.

-

You mean "Micheal Jackson"? This was part of some ongoing childishness from IP 204.100.180.37.

Elvis Presley and Walt Disney were blacklisted, couldn't find work, starved to death, and died in obscurity as victims of the Red Scare. Wow. Learn something new everyday. nobs 18:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Added Belafonte to blacklisted artists. Also - what about Dixiechick issue?

Chuck from Japan here.

I noted that Belafonte had not been included in the list of blacklisted artists, so I added him.

Another comment/suggestion about the title and relevant broadening of scope. The title suggests that the blacklist was limited to Hollywood, although we all know it included people like Belafonte, Seeger (whose name was on the list of blacklisted artists here). I don't propose changing the name, but at least it should be made clear that the blacklist went far beyond Hollywood, and in that sense, I think the list of blacklisted artists could be greatly expanded.

Second, and even more importantly, this all seems to be treated as a historical issue, but isn't blaclisting alive and well in the United States? I refer, of course, to the issue of the Dixie Chicks and the chilling "signal" sent to all other artists. Shouldn't there be some discussion about the fact that blacklisting to some measure is alive and well?

Also, I understand that Michael Moore had trouble getting his film distributed. In the context of the "modern blacklist," perhaps some mention could be made of this. I think this is a great article and could be even greater if it is put in the broader contexts of the arts in general and history versus present. What do you think?

Cheers

In case anyone else is unclear about this, "The Hollywood Blacklist" refers to a particular set of people who were blacklisted during a particular historical period, due to real or suspected Communist beliefs. It's not about any random entertainer who has gotten into trouble of some sort because of his/her beliefs or statements.

Re. Harry Belafonte, as far as I can determine he was never blacklisted in this sense of the word. He became very politically outspoken, and has caught some flack for his statements, much more recently. KarlBunker 00:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Good Article?!

Good Article?! This can't be serious. The only reason I came to the discussion page was to see why it hasn't been marked as needing cleaning up. Sentences are unclear, acronyms aren't identified, Ideas are fragmented and disjointed, and even punctuation is missing!

"The Hollywood blacklist stemmed from events dating back to the 1930s" - This should at least have a small overview of what type of events. (not to mention being a link to the 1930s)

"In October of 1947, a list of suspected communists...were summoned to appear before the House Committee on Un-American Activities..." - The list was summoned, or the people were?

"Witnesses such as Budd Schulberg and Elia Kazan either felt it was patriotic to expose others or, out of fear for the consequences of non-compliance, named names." - Should this be removed as speculation?

I am just listing these to show why I feel this is not a "good article." I also feel that before this can be considered comprehensive, a list of works directly affected by the blacklisting should be added. I am going to mark it as needing cleaning, and clean what I can. Bitoffish 18:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Added E. Y. "Yip" Harburg, composer to blacklist

Chuck, Japan

the story of the rat kazan not added?

Im impressed that the story of Elia Kazan is missing, the rat Kazan, who was so happy to rat out some of his colleages to the HUAC, ruinning promissing careers of his colleages and how later he recieved an honorary oscar for his achievements, although everyone know that it was to forgive what he did (the academy is very sentimentalist about these things, or else, if it was only for achievements, Leni Riefenstahl would had got an honorary award a long time ago for his breakthrough in film making). The article is missing this key story, wich belongs to hollywood folklore.

Leni Riefenstahl was a woman! (-: Hebron 06:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Other questions and comments

Question to Ted Wilkes: were all ten native born American citizens? Nobs01 28 June 2005 16:02 (UTC)

No story on that commie busting Kazan!

for same reasons as above, but thought I would just like to correct the sympathetic pinko and claim he was a anti-pinko whitsleblower!

RomanYankee(24.75.194.50 16:50, 23 August 2006 (UTC))

Holding place for mooted "Contemporary references" section

Not clear at all if this section is desirable--certainly not in its stubby state. It merely distracts from the serious historical content of the article. If someone is interested in working it up, with an edifying discussion of how the blacklist is treated in these examples of "modern popular culture," have at it:

Contemporary References

The blacklist continues to be an common theme in modern popular culture. Films like The Majestic and the television program Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip use the blacklist as a backdrop in plotlines.

—DCGeist 08:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm usually tolerant of popular culture sections, even though many of them are just backreference trivia. (If "what links here" had a better interface, or could be annotated ... hmmm.) In this case I'm surprised there isn't more, but maybe it was cut back at one time. Obviously there are a fair number of films that directly depict the situation and others that allude to it more generally. What's fascinating here as an opportunity is the real way that the blacklist ideological battles continue to be fought within Hollywood -- for example, the treatment of Kazan at the Oscars. Some of the same people are still alive and scoring points as it were. So this could actually be a full-fledged section closely related to the article, rather than a seeming afterthought. --Dhartung | Talk 10:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Linking Issue

Just a small thing. I've never edited before and don't know how, so I'll leave it up to someone more competent. The link near the bottom to others blaklisted has a link to a Joseph Bernard. The link then goes to a turn of the century french sculptor. I actually knew the man; he was a Jewish-American actor and teacher who had many connections in the theatre world and served in World War II. So...maybe that link should be deleted, or whatever it is that happens. Thank you! 24.253.47.205 23:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And thank you! Correction made.—DCGeist 00:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a good website about people blacklisted, but I'm not sure it fits here because I think it's about some people from Hollywood as well as outside of Hollywood, so you decide if you want it added: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAred.htm Sundiii (talk) 17:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Blacklists because of Racism

Shouldn't we add a section for the Hollywood people who are being blacklisted because or racism, such as Don Imus? littlebum2002 16:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

This isn't an article about "blacklists" in general, it's about "the Hollywood blacklist", which is a very specific event in history. RedSpruce 16:30, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Reagan Testimony

I'm not so sure that it is correct to say that Reagan testified that Communist allegiance was "rampant" in the movie industry. (The Blacklist Begins Section) In fact, all he testified was that there was a "small clique" who followed "tactics that we associate with the Communist Party", but that the other "99% of us" keep them "curtailed." See, e.g. [1]. Accordingly, I think either Reagan's name needs to be removed or if Disney's testimony is not fairly characterized as claiming it was "rampant" then removing this entirely. RGorman 01:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Reagan certainly has stated in writing that the threat of communists in the film industry was a serious one (e.g., in an article he wrote that appears in "McCarthyism: The Great American Red Scare; a Documentary History, p. 125"), though in what I've seen he didn't claim that their numbers were large. So perhaps the wording of that passage should be changed. RedSpruce 02:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point, I used some of your language to clarify for the time being, but the passage might need some more refining.RGorman 01:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Hayden quotes

Okay, fine, I can see your point that my augmenting the quote you had with another one might be considered redundant. However, nothing about the way your quote was set up suggested that the reference listed at the end of the paragraph was for the quote. Rather, it looks to me as though the reference is intended to cite the rumor you list after the quote, not the quote itself. Nothing about my quote was "inside" yours, and it didn't appear in my careful examination to be an encroachment on your citation, at least not the way it's framed. But I'm content to leave mine out as redundant; it's in the article on Hayden, too, so in retrospect it is, I suppose, particularly redundant. Monkeyzpop 01:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Jewish targets?

I ran across http://www.sfjff.org/site/pages/index.php?ptype=4&pchild_id=92&detlID=24, the sanfran Jewish film festival 25 year retrospective that looked at the work of blacklisted Jews. It states in part "Six out of the so-called “Hollywood Ten,” and 10 of the 19 brought before the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) were Jews." I have no idea whether this belongs in this article in any form, but I hadn't seen that noted before, though it doesn't surprise me. Mulp 06:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Links in the names

I guess Lee Gold the filker, who is linked to from the name,is not Lee Gold the screenwriter blacklisted in 2003. I couldn't find any details, though (after a little search), except for some other screenwriter, whom it may be just a bit late to blacklist. — AVRS 20:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed the article so it's now a red link to "Lee Gold (screenwriter)" instead of a blue link to the wrong Lee Gold. RedSpruce 16:55, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks — AVRS 12:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Hollywood Ten disambiguation

Shouldn't there be a disambiguation page or link for Hollywood ten? When searching in the general search it goes directly to Hollywood blacklist and there is no link to the page for the Hollywood Ten (film 1950). I had included information on the film in the 1948-1950 section (see my previous edit), as I think there should be some way to link to it.--Almw113 (talk) 08:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I added a disambiguation link to the top of this article. RedSpruce (talk) 12:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Blacklist in general

Why not include all people who have been blacklisted in the tumultuous war years and post-war years. Why not talk about the Nazi fifth column, too. At the outbreak of WW II, there were many Nazis and Nazi sympathizers in America and they were blacklisted from Hollywood and from other jobs and areas of society. Some of these peoples lives were destroyed and they were put in jail. Whatever happened to them? The 1st Amendment protection for U.S. citizens should extend even to people that we don't like -- isn't that the proof of a strong first amendment? To talk about the "Hollywood Blacklist" and only have it discuss Communinists makes me worry that there is sympathy for their ideology, too. If this article could include other similar events that were happening at almost the same time and for the same reasons would prove that this is not just a justification exercise for supporting the Soviet Union. And this would show fair-mindedness. People who are against blacklists should stand up and be counted and those who are just opposed to blacklists of Communists should be asked to explain this discrepancy. It is a high principle that is at stake. Lkoler (talk) 01:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The rules of Wikipedia require that articles reflect the current scholarly literature on an article's subject. In scholarly (and popular) literature, "the Hollywood blacklist" has a specific and confined definition, and that's the definition that this article is adhering to. RedSpruce (talk) 12:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the info on Wikipedia rules.
I guess that I would then like to turn to the opening discussion of the HUAC then and point out the connection there in the Historical background section. The HUAC was used during the war to go after Nazis and their sympathizers. Many communists and their sympathizers in Hollywood were anxious to name names (and did), but only after Hitler invaded the USSR. This would put the whole issue of the importance of Hollywood as a prized propaganda tool in perspective. The communists certainly thought that blacklists compiled against their enemies were a good idea.
This is very important because the way this article reads now it is purely from the POV of the blacklisted communists without historical context of why blacklists in Hollywood were compiled and why Hollywood was viewed as so important to the war effort and to the cold-war effort. Lkoler (talk) 17:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

RFC below

Jean Rouverol Butler

Summary

The article used, and uses in other names:

• Jean Rouverol (Butler)

I found it confusing, since my first thought was that she was somehow a blacklisted person who worked as a butler. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

For example:

• Eddie Anderson (comedian)
• Harry Brooks (composer)

Rejected compromises:

• Jean Rouverol (changed by Norton) This was first change to standardized format. This was reversed back to the DCGeist's original version by DCGeist.
• Jean Rouverol Butler (suggested by Norton as compromise) This was reversed back to the editor's original version.
• Jean Rouverol who worked under the name "Jean Rouverol Butler" (suggested by Vernon as compromise). This was reversed back to the DCGeist's original version by DCGeist.
• Jean Rouverol (suggested by RedSpruce to back to first change) This was reversed back to the DCGeist's original version by DCGeist.
• Jean Rouverol, wife of Hugo Butler (suggested by Norton) This was reversed back to the DCGeist's original version by DCGeist.
• Jean Rouverol (with no qualifications, parenthetical or otherwise, per Norton, Bigtimepeace, RedSpruce, and EJF) This was reversed back to the DCGeist's original version by DCGeist.

Comments

How about "Jean Rouverol Butler" since (butler) is reserved for occupations to disambiguate people. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

For example:

• Eddie Anderson (comedian)
• Harry Brooks (composer)

• Jean Rouverol (Butler), made me think they were a butler for their occupation
• Jean Rouverol Butler, whereas this would make me think their maiden name or married name was "Butler". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Note: User went on to reverse the change and write: "rv--nope, the exact same style is used above for two other actresses who used their married names in private life but retained their maiden names for their public careers; it's perfectly standard"

Well, there is your standard for the article, which I found confusing, and thought that their occupation was as a butler. But Wikipedia has different standards. Yes, that style is used elsewhere in the article, but of, course we can assume, its your style again used within the article. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

I'd say that "Jean Rouverol Butler" is the less correct option since AFAWK that isn't a name she used. Maybe it would be best just to leave off the married names? RedSpruce (talk) 18:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

If she were a butler it would be Jean Rouverol (butler). Without looking up policies on maiden names, I would say that one could list her as "Jean Rouverol, actress and writer sometimes credited as Jean Rouverol Butler"

• I don't see the "Givenname Maidenname (husband's name)" mentioned anywhere in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) as a standard. How about the compromise above, since you rejected the previous compromise. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

No. "Sometimes credited as" would be fine if there was evidence that such is the case, but the sources adduced provide no such evidence. It is not a "compromise," but an assertion of fact that is unfounded. I don't see any compelling reason to change the stable and consistent style of the article because one editor happens to think that "Jean Rouverol (Butler), actress and writer" in a list of blacklisted entertainment industry professionals means Jean Rouverol is a butler. No dice.—DCGeist (talk) 04:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• Would you say it was "utterly pointless to include this" (your comment to a change I made elsewhere)? Since she is not known by her maiden name. How about pairing her with her husband? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• We have a manual of style with rules for naming people. I am converting to the MoS version. If your argument is she should be called "Jean Rouverol (Butler)", that argument should be made at her article page, and unconventional naming should be avoided, and the MoS rules applied. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• For an example of complex naming see: Alberta Christine Williams King not Alberta Christine Williams (King). I haven't seen your techniques used anywhere else in Wikipedia. I sometimes see it, or a variation of it in obituaries, and its confusing there too. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:44, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The style that the article uses and will continue to use for such cases is the style predominantly used by the cited sources. You remain the first and only person to be confused by it. Your confusion—which should be fully cleared up by now...Jean Rouverol was not a blacklisted butler—does not require a change in style.—DCGeist (talk) 06:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The MoS for Wikipedia is what determines the style used in Wikipedia. Just as an article from a Russian source may correctly put the name in Cyrillic, that wouldn't follow the Wikipedia MoS either, even though it was still a valid representation of her name. Every reference work has its own style guide, each contradicting the style guide of its rival publications. Internal consistency is more important, to give the same "look and feel" to each article. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I was asked to look at this. To me, it is quite clear that "Jean Rouverol" would be the preferred form of the name used in this article. My understanding of the Wikipedia naming conventions, Manual of Style and disambiguation guidelines, is that adding "(Butler)" to the end of Jean Rouverol's name is certainly non-standard and does not have precedent. The addition is unnecessary and could be confusing to the reader. "(Butler)" should only be used as a disambiguator for articles in which the subject of the article is indeed a professional butler. If it is wished for the article name to be known as [[Jean Rouverol (Butler)]] it would be more appropriate to file a requested move at Rouverol's article page, which would fail, due to its non-compatibility with our standard practices. I don't see the case to having her name represented as "Jean Rouvernol (Butler)" due to the possibility of confusion and due to the deviation from 3 major guidelines. As far as I can see [[Jean Rouvernol]] or perhaps [[Jean Rouvernol Butler]] would be the most appropriate forms of the name to use. If this naming issue continues it may be best to file a request for comment(done now). Regards, EJF (talk) 16:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• Pairing with husband. See the new compromise version: "Jean Rouverol, actress and writer, and wife of Hugo Butler" --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• Outside comment. I'm a bit unclear as to why we would want to use the name Jean Rouverol (Butler) in the first place. DCGeist makes reference to "cited sources," so I'm assuming this means that the Buhle and Wagner book refers to her as "Jean Butler," or states that she was known as "Jean Butler" in film credits (or as that in private life but by her maiden name in films)? Some clarification of that would useful. Regardless, I think the name to be used should obviously be the name by which the person was generally known. Unless our wiki article is wrong, that name is Jean Rouverol. If that is wrong then the issue should be addressed at that page. The "compromise version" seems very odd to me. She seems to be the only person in the list who is listed as "wife of so-and-so." She had her own career and was blacklisted in her own right, so I think we should refer to her alone using whatever name she was most commonly known by. I'm still unclear about what is underlying this dispute so perhaps that could be clarified, but that's where I stand for now. Oh and, incidentally, I certainly would find Jean Rouverol (Butler) confusing at first glance, and imagine many other readers would as well.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:15, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
• Outside comment. The only form I know of using a parentheses with a name would be Jean {Rouverol) Butler, to indicate a woman's maiden name, but that is always put in the middle. Since she was apparently known more widely as Jean Rouverol, that would seem to be preferred. --Parkwells (talk) 22:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
• I see that style in obituaries of the maiden name in parenthesis, and it still can be confusing, especially when the woman has been married multiple times. Sometimes they use her previous married surnname, and sometimes they use he birth surname. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:51, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
• I just want to add my belated comment. We need, in a project of this magnitude, to maintain consistency. Since this person was a performer, we should use the name under which she professionally worked and was most frequently credited. The parenthetical additional name is a violation of our naming conventions. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Overview and other edits

The article starts out saying that many young artists' participation in the Communist Party of the US was "because of events rooted in the 1930s and '40s", but then says nothing about what those events were, not even about the Great Depression and millions of people out of work. The article can serve two purposes - tell people about the Hollywood blacklist, but also tell them about why idealistic people might have turned to the Communist Party in the 20s and 30s. Instead, the article only refers to the fact that they didn't know about Stalin's murderous excesses until later, not offering why they were attracted to Communism in the first place. Adding a phrase about the Great Depression is not extreme, and putting the learning about Stalin later (where it happened in time) makes sense. One editor has rejected all my edits as "bad", but in fact I am a good writer and editor, and my services have been requested by others (as you can see by my Talk page). No one is supposed to assume he or she "owns" an article. At a minimum, I know Wikipedia discourages the use of contractions, and this editor even reverted such changes of "couldn't" to "could not". That seems like an attempt at ownership of this article by one person.

I didn't reject all your edits as bad; I used that unnecessarily contentious language about most of the edits you made to one section: "This decision was found to be due to the influence of..." is a more awkward and less precise recasting of what was a perfectly functional sentence. "Co-written" changed the proper and consistent style of "cowritten" (the style preferred by The Chicago Manual of Style and Merriam-Webster's) to a style that is less preferred in contemporary American English. Changing the sentence that began "And there" to "There" weakened the sense and flow of the paragraph. The notion that a sentence should not begin with "and" is not supported by any major manual of American English style—adherence to that particular notion is often the mark of those who imagine themselves to be more familiar with good writing than they actually are. If I overreacted in my edit summary, it was probably because of memories of the neverending battle on behalf of the leadoff "and" and "but." They're valuable expressive tools with a proud history. But don't take my word for it. Here's a good place to start: [2].

Since you have the Chicago Manual of Style handy, does it also encourage sentences that end in prepositions - "the decision Kirk Douglas was largely responsible for." That was the part that struck me as "off", not claiming my solution was the best one.--Parkwells (talk) 13:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I should note that you elsewhere made such changes as altering "Artists were barred from work on the basis of their alleged membership in...the American Communist Party" to "alleged past membership." That is simply incorrect. Artists were barred for alleged membership, past or present. You unnecessarily changed the proper and consistent number style in one section—and then didn't even apply your unnecessary style change consistently throughout. (Even if you had, it still would have been an improper change to make: our Manual of Style states clearly that you should respect a stable, consistent, proper style in an article unless there is a compelling reason to change it.) You took good style ("federal antitrust suit") and turned it into overtly bad style ("Federal anti-trust suit")—"Federal" is never capitalized in professional writing in this sort of grammatical context; the closed compound is again preferred by The Chicago Manual of Style and Merriam-Webster's, and certainly allowed by our MoS. The reason I originally reverted the mention of the Great Depression you added is that your version managed to suggest that the 1930s "followed" the Depression. Oy. However, you are right that it is worthwhile to mention it, to suggest the motivations of some of those who joined the Communist Party. The Depression appears once again in the article. You are correct as well about contractions.—DCGeist (talk) 08:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

What I was trying to suggest was that most of the artists accused were no longer members or active in the Party. I know that did not affect the weight of the allegations, but was trying to show also that they were being condemned for actions long past. Oy, of course I know the Great Depression didn't follow the 1930s and didn't mean to suggest that. You have fixed it and at least now provided a reminder to the many people whose history is fuzzy of events of 1930 and after that affected why people might join groups on the Left. --Parkwells (talk) 13:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Article Bias

This article suffers from a severe bias. It is almost uniformly sympathetic to those blacklisted, and ignores the deep roots that the CPUSA had in the guilds and studios and their near successful attempt to takeover or dominate these organizations.

There is relatively no discussion into the motives of the individuals who did testify. Many of them did so because they became disgusted with the tactics of the Hollywood communists and the realization that they were little more than Moscow puppets.

Statements like “Much of the onscreen evidence of Communist influence uncovered by HUAC was feeble at best.” Certainly don’t represent wither a neutral style or even a factual tone.

I will be doing a good deal of work on this article over the next several days, and will remove the tag then. Thanks. CENSEI (talk) 20:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

You need to establish that the changes you want to introduce reflect the majority view among scholars and authors in the field. See WP:UNDUE. As you're probably aware, the consensus view among scholars, authors, film historians, etc., is that the blacklist was a gross injustice and a subversion of American values. While you and others may believe this consensus is mistaken, your view is a tiny minority view, and that's what matters according to the rules of Wikipedia.

That isn't to say that I think this article is perfect, and if you can make some good changes that aren't focused around correcting the conventional wisdom around the blacklist, I'd personally be happy to see them. RedSpruce (talk) 11:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

RedSpruce, yours is a COMPLETELY FALSE statement: WP:UNDUE does not require a majority, not by a longshot. Your statement shoule be covered by WP:UNDO :)

I never stated, nor do I believe that the blacklist was not an injustice, only that this article is a one sided puff piece. For example, no where is there a discussion of the fact that those who testified and took the fifth was little more than a legal strategy by Crum Margolis and Kenny wherein they could keep silent and appear indignant, while simultaneously being able to build an appeal for contempt charges. Nor is there any indication that the hostile witnesses legal team was dominated by Communist part members and that all “group decision” made were handed down from the Party’s leadership. A fact that Bartley Crum, who took the case on real 1st amendment grounds rather than to advance the Party’s agenda, was very upset with when he found out.

No where is there any indication that Dalton Trumbo, perhaps the most famous of those blacklisted, became very disillusioned with the Communist part over behavior during the blacklist. Trumbo came to the conclusion that the Ten were more valuable to the part as a propaganda tool and did nothing to help them get their ruined careers and reputations back.

But you cant have it both ways. The way I have interpreted the policy, and correct me if I am wrong, is that if there is a dispute, which there would seem to be, the tag has to stay or my edits have to stay. You cant have your cake and eat it to in this case. CENSEI (talk) 15:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Like all other content, adding a "POV" tag is dependent on consensus among WP editors. So far I'm not seeing any consensus to add one.

I never stated, nor do I believe that the blacklist was not an injustice... That's good to hear, but let's focus on your actual edits. You removed a lot of content about the damage the blacklist did to people's lives and careers. Any "commonly accepted reference text" (WP:UNDUE's phrase) will focus on this aspect of the blacklist, not on the actual communist affiliations of some of the accused. RedSpruce (talk) 10:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be only 2 of us talking about this, so I would say that 50% of the editors who have weighed in think there is a dispute. After further reading the link from the NPOV tag, I find nothing about the need for consensus among WP editors to add it or keep it. CENSEI (talk) 18:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I've removed your edit but am willing to keep the POV tag for now. Please discuss the content of the article, including any changes you would like to see, and why. If you don't discuss the article, then there is no dispute over the article's neutrality, so no justification for the POV tag. RedSpruce (talk) 10:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I have reinstated most of my edit. I has rewritten the over the top language in the intro, and removed "often made betrayal of friendship (not to mention principle) the price for a livelihood, and promoted ideological censorship across the entire industry. " because the vast majority of those who testified did so willingly with no reservations about what they did. CENSEI (talk) 00:31, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The text you removed is well accepted as part of the standard history of the Blacklist. It should be given a reference, and I'll try to get to that soon. Your notion that "the vast majority of those who testified did so willingly with no reservations" is interesting; do you have a reference for that? RedSpruce (talk) 10:30, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Tossing an unsolicited amicus curiae here: I'm in agreement with RedSpruce. I think there's nothing biased about the passage -- it's clear from sources within and without the article that expediency and honor were at tremendous odds during this period for many called to testify. I have a much harder time accepting CENSEI's statement that "the vast majority of those who testified did so willingly with no reservations". That's all. Just weighing in with an outside opinion to help provide some consensus. Monkeyzpop (talk) 18:08, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Hollywood Ten Should Be Separate From Blacklist

The Hollywood Ten should be a separate article from the Blacklist. Would you have all articles about battles of the American Civil War or World War Two redirect to the war, proper? And why does this say it is part of the Screenwriting project. The Blacklist affected more than just screenwriters. It affected directors, producers and actors, among others.Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 02:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Misstatement of law

Currently the article reads ""Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" Such membership was not and had never been illegal."

This is simply incorrect, a false "fact." Membership in the CPUSA was illegal under the Smith Act, passed in 1940, and remained so until Blau v US (1957). In the early 1950's many leaders of the CPUSA were indicted and convicted for being members of an "organization advocating the violent overthrow of the government of the United States."

Barring objection, I'll correct in three days. Solicitr (talk) 18:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's be clear. The Smith Act did not legally bar Americans from membership in the Communist Party. What it did was make it a crime to advocate the overthrow of the government or to organize for the purpose of such advocacy. Unquestionably, the Act was used years later to prosecute members of the ACP, but that's a very different matter from claiming that the Hollywood Ten violated U.S. law by joining the ACP. They simply had not, and there was no claim in the HUAC hearings that they had.—DCGeist (talk) 18:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Confusion

Next to the blacklisted names near the bottom there is something like this "(Herman 1997: 356; Dick 1989: 7) " What in the world does this mean?! Unknowntbeast (talk) 15:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Badly formatted references. No time to do so myself, but these should be reformatted to WP standard in-line citations. Monkeyzpop (talk) 15:36, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh, please. It's a perfectly proper reference format.—DCGeist (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Weasel Wording

I am not sure who the idiot was, that referred to the America First Party as Neo-Fascist. But the accusation is asinine. Please, stick to the facts and stop with the political opinion please.

Thank You.

-Pat

09:16, 5 April 2011 (UTC)