Talk:Coandă-1910

ArbCom

Now at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Henri_Coanda_defamation

Andy Dingley (talk) 11:31, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Case declined, with declining arbitrators recommending lower level remedies. Binksternet (talk) 19:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I asked [1][2] for lower level methods without reply ( the general "ignorance" phenomenon that cripples WP ). As User:Newyorkbrad proposed the case to be opened again in "two weeks" I will do it, as soon as I have time. --Lsorin (talk) 21:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

The same case in two weeks, submitted to the same committee will hardly give you different results. Binksternet (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Taken to ArbCom again.--Lsorin (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I expect the same result as last time; nothing has changed. Binksternet (talk) 18:46, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations to User:Binksternet and User:Andy Dingley. Now you have the full ownership of the article and I have the proof the Wikipedia does not work. Good luck in becoming the full owners of the whole "free" Wikipedia! --Lsorin (talk) 13:02, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The "first full-size attempt at a jet-propelled aeroplane"

That's Gibbs-Smith's description of the Coandă-1910. As far as I can see from this article (and I haven't done much reading elsewhere), nothing is more negative on the question of what Coandă actually achieved except the lead of this article, which can easily be read to suggest that he did nothing at all, outside of his own imagination.

I understand how we got here - and this is one of the more regrettable effects of applying Rumanian patriotism to the question: it makes for a net negative tone in response to exaggerations - but is it where we want to be? Can we adopt GS, or some equivalent, into the lead? We should certainly go on to assert that there is no contemporary evidence it ever flew, as GS also says; but shouldn't we begin with what the subject did do? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure, we can give the inventor credit for his known and agreed-upon achievements in the lead sentence. How about this change?

• Current: The Coandă-1910, designed by Romanian inventor Henri Coandă, was an early sesquiplane aircraft which featured an experimental aircraft engine that was later argued as being the first motorjet engine.
• Gibbs-Smith credit: The Coandă-1910, designed by Romanian inventor Henri Coandă, was the first full-size attempt at a jet aircraft. Built as a sesquiplane, it featured an experimental aircraft engine that was later argued as being the first motorjet engine. Binksternet (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

reference

In case this is useful:
Antonescu's Eagles against Stalin's Falcons: The Romanian Air Force, 1920-1941
Alexander Statiev
The Journal of Military History
Vol. 66, No. 4 (Oct., 2002), pp. 1085-1113
(article consists of 29 pages)
Published by: Society for Military History
JSTOR 3093265
Quote:

SINCE man's first flight, the Romanian public has shown a keen interest in aviation. Romanian sources maintain that a Romanian was the first to build an aircraft able to take off without the assistance of auxiliary equipment. In March 1906 the Romanian engineer Traian Vuia took off from a field near Paris in an airplane that he had designed; he covered a distance of twelve meters.' Though Romanian propeller aviation was not marked by further impressive developments, Romanians also claim the invention of the jet airplane. In 1910 at the Aeronautic Salon in France, the Romanian engineer Henri Coanda demonstrated an aircraft allegedly powered by a jet engine. Whether this aircraft ever actually flew is not clear, nor is the impact of these events on world air technology. Nevertheless, they took a distinguished place in Romania's national heritage. Aviation enjoyed high prestige in Romanian society.

Article goes on to discuss the Romanian air force and doesn't say any more about Coanda.

128.32.112.233 (talk) 03:53, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Twelve meters is a hop, not a flight. You can fly a barn door for 12 meters if you push it hard enough. Vuia deserves a very, very small credit but he does not take the place of the Wright brothers, whose first flights did not use any auxiliary equipment. Later, they began to use a catapult-type device for convenience, not necessity.

Regarding Romanian national thought about Coanda, we have quite enough of that. The source you offer does not give us anything new. Binksternet (talk) 05:27, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

File:Coanda 1910-Antoniu Collection.jpg

Isn't it a free image since its copyright must have expired? It is over 100 years old. Nergaal (talk) 00:19, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Mainstream

Coanda-1910 was the first jet-propelled aircraft in the world according to the mainstream. Bad luck that so called "free" Wikipedia, lacks credibility due to lack of respect for real expertise, by "experts" and owners of Coanda-1910 article User:Binksternet and User:Andy Dingley. Listed bellow for the last time, as my account by be blocked permanently as a proof of a non working tool(WP):

In a nutshell

• Five day exhibition at the European Parliament celebrating the centenary of the first jet aircraft
• [3]
• academic
• several encyclopedia and history books
• primary sources like the leaflets, magazines,books news from around 1910,1911, witnesses, Coanda's patents
• articles and TV interviews
• his endorsing as honorable member of the Royal Aeronautical Society or Romanian academy
• special medal give by the city of Paris of his work on jet propulsion starting from 1910
• several museums in Romania[4][5], France [6][7] , England [8]Bristol City Museum, Germany [9], USA presenting unique artifacts related the first jet aircraft [10][11][12])

Sources according to WP:IRS (please change it in case that something is misplaced)

• Secondary Souces
  • Academic

- [http://books.google.com/books?ei=Ud_yTM_DF8yWOobw1KoK&ct=result&id=CYpTAAAAMAAJ&dq=coanda-1910+proceedings&q=coanda-1910#search_anchor History of rocketry and astronautics:

proceedings of the twenty-fourth Symposium of the International Academy of Astronautics, Dresden, Germany, 1990]

- [http://books.google.com/books?ei=Ud_yTM_DF8yWOobw1KoK&ct=result&id=9odTAAAAMAAJ&dq=coanda-1910+proceedings&q=coanda-1910#search_anchor History of rocketry and astronautics:

proceedings of the Seventeenth History Symposium of the International Academy of Astronautics, Budapest, Hungary, 1991]

-Romanian Academy

-Royal Aeronautical Society

• • Scholarship
    • Monographs
      • Books

Dan Antoniu, 2010 Henri Coanda and his technical work during 1906-1918.

Stine, G. Harry, 1983 The Hopeful Future.

V.Firoiu, 2002 Din nou acasa

Gibbs-Smith, C. 1970 Aviation: an historical survey from its origins to the end of World War II.

(According to the rule generally it has been at least preliminarily vetted by one or more other scholars Gibbs-Smith can be considered as it was endorsed by Antoniu but caution as it is considered to contain speculations on evidence of absence and using incorrect sources.)

• • News organizations
    • Magazines

Sandachi, George-Paul, 2010 , several "Cer Senin" magazines

Walter J. Boyne, 2006 -The Converging Paths of Whittle and von Ohain, A Concise History of Jet Propulsion

G. Harry Stine , 1989 - The Rises and Falls of Henri-Marie Coanda

Gérard Harmann , 2007 - Clément-Bayard, sans peur et sans reproche

Frank H. Winter , 1980 Ducted fan or the world's first jet plane? The Coanda claim re-examined

As per WP:IRS if the secondary sources are conflicting or they give biased positions ( as an example Antoniu vs Gibbs-Smith ) the primary sources can be used.

• Primary Sources
  • 1) articles written by Coanda himself in 50s and 60s is several magazines
  • 2) articles,leaflets, books from very close to the event ( newspapers like "Le Temps", "Le Figaro", books Bases et methodes d'etudes aerotechniques - Leon Ventou-Duclaux )
  • 3) persons Victor Hoart "L'Histoire de l'aviation recontée à mon fils."
  • 4) several museums around the world in Romania, England, France, USA, Germany.
  • 5) patents

• Tertiary sources

Several major encyclopedias: Jane's Encyclopedia of Aviation, World Encyclopedia, American Encyclopedia etc Special events: coins, stamps, exhibitions Institutions bearing his name with special emphasis on the first jet-propelled aircraft. --Lsorin (talk) 13:21, 6 April 2011 (UTC)