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Unfortunately Wikipedia is beginning to become more and more polarized - with adminstrators editing and weilding power with subjectivity and playing to racial sympathies. It's no use merely editing and showing sources for reasons to edit - check this page's contribution history. Mel Etitis just keeps reverting and has even got blocked for doing so.
In our discussions about changes to this page he has contantly been rude, dismissive and arrogant and has also made accusations towards me, namely that I am supposedly some anon that has accused him of being racist. I don't need to go anon to do that. After my long discussions with him over the dispute of this page, I accuse him openly. His last abusive statement that my English is lacking was completely uncalled for and will not be tolerated by me. I will be making the necessary complaints - our discussions are in the open and for everyone to read. It is suffice to say I am not alone in my views of this person.
It is a pity, beacuse we should show respect to people of his age and they should at least have amassed some wisdom to show for all their years on this planet. But I guess there always will be exceptions.
Wikipedia is coming a place where the public no longer edit, resembling some mythos of Greek admin Gods on a high Mount Olympus, who come down now and again and allow us few mortals to chip away at their point of view.
Wikipedia isn't here to re-write history.
I want to write this explanation to go with this page in the hope that if interested people come to read this page, they can get the fullest facts.
Firstly, please note that there are no sources or citations on this page. Why? Because Mel Etitis has no need for them. He has put his point of view across and won't listen to anyone who shows authority to the opposite. He can just dismiss it as irrelevant and continue to revert.
Secondly, although ALL Zeybek dance forms (be they Greek or Turkish) have a common UNIFYING charateristic form - so that whether you are in the Turkish or Greek Aegean you can immediately recognise it, Mel Etitis refuses to accept this. He promotes that the Greek Zeybek merely originates (in a very far and distant way) to the Turkish folk dance. For this reason (after someone called him up on just removing Turkish music samples of the Zeybek dance from this page) he then decided to open a new and separate page for the information found on the Internet for the Turkish Zeybek dance - merely to perpetuate his own (completely imagined) view that these are in fact two separate dances.
They are not. As with many other articles where Turkish and Greek cultures conjoin - namely folk instruments such as the baglama, food such as lokum and baklava and other folk dances such as the ciftetelli, one wonders why Mel Etitis seems so adamant on seaparating these two dances - especially when I have continously asked him to provide independent sources - and he has constantly failed to do so.
If one looks at the history of the Greek Zeybek - there are racial and nationalistic sensitivities ar play. Hellenes have for years after they gained their independence from the Ottoman Empire, tried to erase the word Turkish and Ottoman influences from their culture. While the rest of teh Balkans calls the coffee they drink Turkish, Greeks decided to coin a new term. They've done the same for kebabs, too. This is just another show of that feeling.
With that mentality then, I can open an article on some mythical subject and argue that no one may change it as now the onus is on them to bring verifiable sources before any amendment can take place.
And then (as is in the power of the Gods) when this information is pooled together - it is just dismissed as irrelevant.
Finally when you object, as is your right, you are dismissed from the mountain and communication is cut.
Administrators should not only be fair, independent and objective but promote open dialogue, too. Mel Etitis fails on all areas in my book. Deff600:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Greek/Turkish Zeybek
In my discussion with Mel Etitis, he has already explained that he cannot substantiate his own personal belief that the two dances are so separate from each other that they require separate articles.
He then challenged me that the ONUS of proving that his personal opinion was wrong by proving it.
I am providing articles where he could not.
It is only a review but it traces the history and developement of Remebitika and the Greek Zeybek dance and it does not back YOUR OPINION that they are so distinct as to be two separate dances (and so as to require two different pages).
Note: Always when the dance is commented in English it is called the Greek Zeybek - against your OWN PERSONAL argument that two different names point to two different dances.
Note: In 1922, following the failure of Greek territorial exploits in Turkey, there began a mass exodus of refugees from Asia Minor to the Greek mainland culminating in the burning of the port of Smyrna by Turkish troops. This displacement of one million people, Greek in name but entirely Turkish in existence, had a dramatic effect on Greece both economic and cultural.
Note: Musician who labels the greek Zeybek dance as merely a Greek derivation of the Turkish Eagle Dance from the Aegean Coast of Asia Minor.
I do want to assume good faith but the only reason I can see for this user not to like to see an example of Turkish zeybek music and information of the original dance on this page is because he is editing with a personal point of view favourable to a certain group of people.
Most of the material to which you link is uncontroversial but also irrelevant.
The first link refers to the relationship between the rembetes and the Zeybeks, but what it says about the dance is: "The zembekiko (9/8) rhythm forms the basis of the male solo dance of the rebetes, and originates in Anatolian folk music." That the dance originates in Anatolian folk music isn't in dispute, and is clearly stated in this article.
All that Cline says is: "ZEYBEK - Fashioned on the Greek derivation of the Turkish Eagle Dance from the Aegean Coast of Asia Minor"; you've added the "merely". Moreover, he's describing one of his compositions that he's called "zeybek" — he's not defining the form. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mel you can't read and you're a lier how you are an admin I din't know but it doesn't bode well for Wikipedia if there ar epeople like you about. I only hope (from reading all th eother discussions) that eventually everyone's negative energy towards you will cosmically emerge and remove you as soon as possible. That youth thing you brag about, is that mental too?
The sources ARE NOT IRRELEVANT - they all treat the ZEYBEK as ONE DANCE with two variations. So it disproves your point. Deff623:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Zeimbekiko is 9/4
dont read anything below this, it's all bullshit. The Greek Zeibekiko is in 9/4, although that is a bit misleading, because it is metrically subdivided as either 5/4 or 4/5. The 9/8 beat however is not subdivided in this manner (instead it is subdided most often as 6/3). it is a unique time signature, and cannot be danced to in the same way unless you wanted to appear to be uncontrollably hysterical, while possibly tripping over yourself, breaking a leg, and breaking your face on the floor. rebetiko is an anti-nationalistic phenomenon, anyone who wants to bring politics into this is firstly an absolute fuckwit, and secondly tarnishing a great art form. So shut up, enjoy the music, and be friendly.
Zeimbekiko is 9/4! Aptaliko which is a faster type of zeimbekiko is 9/8.
I present the rhythm with hand drum notation ; D-t---t-D---t---D-t---t-D---t---t--- .Each symbol in this case is a sixteenth therefore we have 36/16 which is 9/4!
Aptaliko is D-ttD-t-D-ttD-t-t- and is obviously played twice the speed of zeimbekiko and stressed a little differently. Aptaliko is 18/16 which is 9/8.--Zito ta xania23:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've always known zeimbekiko to be mainly 9/8, with occasional variants in 9/4. My understanding is backed up by this article from Musical Traditions No 3, Summer 1984, as well as by these: [1], [2].
Drum notation doesn't really help much; I have a few books of the music, and zeimbekikos are almost always in 9/8 (which is why I've always played them in that time). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I told you it is a common mistake for zeimbekiko to be regarded as 9/8 and the articles you propose fall in the same rule. This happens because zeimbekiko used to be 9/8 a lot years ago since it was played twice the speed than it is played now. If you have time download the song "Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας(To zeimbekiko tis Eudokias)" written by Μάνος Λοΐζος(Manos Loizos) which is a quite common zeimbekiko and I believe you can easily find it. Try to count it! You 'll see that if we count 8ths they are too slow to be 8ths...! If it is 9/8 then the 8th lasts about a second which is quite long!--Zito ta xania21:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If modern musicians play zeimbekiko slower now, then that can be said in the article — but it would be wrong to make it look as though a recent development is the simple truth about the history of the dance. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
a Greek improvisational solo dance. Turkish people also dance zeybek or zeibeikko. If you have a sources that this dance was found by Greek people, could, please, show it ? Cheers--TuzsuzDeliBekir20:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ohhhh, sorry for misunderstanding Mel Etitis. I thought that they were the same dance. I am interested in furtherin info. about zeimbekiko. Do you know any link of it ? Sorry again. --TuzsuzDeliBekir07:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There's no need to apologise; the Greek dance is certainly derived from the Turkish dance, which is why it has a Greek version of the same name. I don't know of a really good link, I'm afraid. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I get so angry when I read so much bulls*t. Just exactly what is your source to say these dances are so completely different that they require separate pages? or removal of a music sample? Tuysuzbekir how can you just take what he says as is? Can't you research for yourself? Why don't you ask him what his justification is for saying they are completely different (yet originate from each other) which is an oxymoron in itself. The attack of teh Greekipedia once again. 82.145.231.14412:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that they were completely different; on thr contrary, they're closely connected and have many similarities. If you take the time to read what people say, you might cut down your apoplectic fits. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
IT IS TEH SAME DANCE. IT IS JUST BECAUSE GREEKS HAVE MADE IT SOME KIND OF SYMBOL OF GREEK NATIONALISM (FASLEY LIKELY REMBETIKO MUSIC) THAT THIS GUY IS PLAYING TO GREEK SENSITIVITIES AND NOT ALLOWING THE INFORMATION ON THE PAGE. Where the hell is NPOV. And this guy is an administrator? The Greeks should learn that aome of their "national" dances come from international sources. 82.145.231.3601:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I realise that this person isn't going to listen to or understand what I say, but I'll say it for the benefit of others who might read this.
There is no hint of Greek nationalism about this; the dance isn't "the national dance", but was part of the rembetiko sub-culture, and is now one of many popular dances (changed still further from the original).
I don't understand the reference to Rembetiko; perhaps if the anon calmed down he might be more coherent.
NPoV has nothing to do with my position; that's the anon's claim. I'm concerned with accuracy.
The article clearly states that the dance has Turkish origins, and I doubt that many Greeks are unaware of that, nor of the origins of other popular dances and music.
This anon has now been blocked at two IP addresses; if he continues to make personal attacks (like the ones that other editors removed from this page; see the History if you're interested in childish outbursts of swearing) and to vandalise my talk page, he'll be blocked at more. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Greek Racisim
I cannot understand why a Greek would edit the page to remove additions of music samples. get out of denial and move on. We know you like to think you own Wikipedia and even though most administrators do make us feel this is Greekipedia - it is just yet. 82.145.231.21902:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No this article should be about BOTH of them. Like çiftetelli is dealt with and you are mistaken that they are not the same. The sound example given is a TYPE of zeybek dance called AĞIR meaning SLOW. It is just one FORM. get it? And one look at your profiles tells me your are Greek or a sympathiser - which means the same thing. Tuzsuz Bekir what are you apologising to some sorry excuse for a grease for? 82.145.231.14412:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked for twenty-four hours for racial abuse (the fact that it involves a childish misattribution of race is irrelevant). I suggest striongly that, if you want to come back and edit, you change your attitude. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Greek racism
How Zembekiko derived from the Turks and the Zembeks together? You are inconsistent.
Seriously weird Greek POV
Zeybek is a Turkic word, a Turkic dance, apparently Zeibekkos is different, so why does the article say Zeibekkos is danced in Turkey but danced MORE and is MORE popular in Greece. What sources are there to back this POV???
p.s Zeybeks are not an ethnic group, they're mountainess warrior rebels who fought against the Greek-invasions in WW1.
Who cares? Most of these dances are derived from Byzantine Greek origins anyway. Do we bring up the constant Turkish appropriation of Byzantine culture in this respect? No. We don't.
Correct. A funny thing is that I read somewhere that bouzouki is an instrument which descents from Turkish saz, while in reality all these Turkish instruments like saz, tambur, baglama etc. are based in the Byzantine pandoura (ancient Greek pandouris). The same happens with the dances.
You don't know what the heck are you talking about ? Saz, bağlama, kopuz these are all known in all Turkic nations. From Siberia to Turkey. Yet ancient Anatolian culture doesn't belong to Greeks. Greeks belong to Greece. Just because some of them colonized Anatolia doesn't mean Greeks are natives to Anatolia. Greeks once colonized Crimea and Eygpt, do you also fake their culture like yours ?--85.100.33.20519:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Can you show us some ancient Turkic art depicting this type of instrument? Didnt think so... It is quite clearly Greek and not Mongolia in origin.
lute#History and evolution of the lute, komuz, saz, baglama (not the Greek one), at least the name of bouzouki is derived from Turkish.
Please take a look at this as well: [[3]]
It is not clearly Greek, more likely Anatolian. probably dating to earlier times than Hittites.
Ancient Turks were living just to the east of Caspian Sea, Anatolia is to the west of Caspian sea (close to Caspian Sea), there is not much distance between them. Ancient Greece is even closer
deniz15:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Blue Rondo Al A Turk
Is Blue Rondo Al A Turk by Dave Brubeck an example of this rhythmically? I'm assuming it is.
zeybekçe, as a noun, would mean language of zeybeks (it can also be used as an adverb 'zeybekçe davran' (behave like zeybek), though one would prefer 'zeybek gibi davran', which is also the literal translation of 'behave like zeybek'.)
zeybek müziği, zeybek havası mean zeybek music
zeybek dansi, zeybek oyunu mean zeybek dance
zeybek normally means a zeybek (person), but it can refer to zeybek dance for instance in the following context:
I just heard a program on the ABC (Aust) about music of the first world war. It included the music of the Zembeks. They stated that the mountainous rebel fighters were a mixture of both Turks and Greeks indigenous to the region. Interesting.60.224.36.15013:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
origin of the name 'zeibekiko'?
Why is it named after some people (according to the link at the bottom of the page) in Asia Minor?? notbale to tell of the meaning behind the name I think. I would like to know at least... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.121.247.116 (talk) 02:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
let's clean up
-However, in the 21st century a certain dance etiquette has evolved, seeing men either wait until the dancing man stops and then begin dancing, or standing up so the dancer gives them his place.
This has nothing to do with the 21st century.
-seeing men either wait until the dancing man stops and then begin dancing
well that is the thing that happens in an intensely personal dance, as said before.
-or standing up so the dancer gives them his place.
and that is known as rudeness, it is not special to zeibekiko dance itself.
-Women were traditionally prohibited from dancing the Zeibekiko unless they were prostitutes
This is false. It is of course a modern cliche to think so.
It is traditional more of a men-dance but women were not prohibited from dancing. First of all on the islands it is not even a men-dance.
You confuse things with the rebetico era (but even in Rebetico culture it is not so). The Zeibekiko dance is alot older and widespread than rebetico music. It is a folk dance, it exists in greek folk music (demotika).
-The dancer is surrounded by other people, who crouch on their knees while clapping for him
That is no rule.
-Throwing plates at the dancer's feet was a practice popular until the 1970's but a practice that very rarely takes place today
That was a practice very popular i in the 1960's until the 1970's in specific establishments. And this practice was not limited on Zeibekiko dance, it was a general entertainment behaviour in these establishments.
-Throwing flowers or other items that won't injure anyone (e.g. napkins) has become more common
Again in specific establishments. This is no Zeibekiko rule.
-In Greek nightclubs, flowers are sold in trays or baskets of ten to twenty pieces and are thrown en-masse on artists, singers, dancers, and other spectators. They are also used for courtship and flirting. In practice, the bill in Greek bouzoukia, especially on the best-placed tables (centre and front), is largely based on flower consumption, and can very often exceed the cost of a brand new car
Off-topic and irrelevant.
-The Zeibekiko is commonly referred to as the dance of dances
By whom?
-requiring incredible athleticism, balance, and creativity. This creativity serves to add to the mood of the Zeibekiko, one of self-expression and kinship with the sombre lyrics to which the dance is performed
Get serious!
-The origins of this dance trace themselves back to the history of when the Greek people were slaves to the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years. There are no organized steps to this dance. As mentioned earlier, it is purely improvised. It is often referred to as the drunken dance. This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking. While inebriated, the slaves would then dance (to forget their worries). They would be off balance and their movements would seem erratic. At times, they had trouble keeping themselves standing. Hence, the fact that there are no organized steps. Though many of today's dancers do not know the full history of the dance, they are said to be immitating the movements of the drunken Greek slaves. It is a dance in their honor.
This section also needs a rewriting, I just did not have the time.
The origins of this dance trace themselves back to the history of when the Greek people were slaves to the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years. There are no organized steps to this dance. As mentioned earlier, it is purely improvised. It is often referred to as the drunken dance. This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking. While inebriated, the slaves would then dance (to forget their worries). They would be off balance and their movements would seem erratic. At times, they had trouble keeping themselves standing. Hence, the fact that there are no organized steps. Though many of today's dancers do not know the full history of the dance, they are said to be immitating the movements of the drunken Greek slaves. It is a dance in their honor.
this is crap and you knoe it. First of all the greek people where no slaves, they where under Ottoman rule.
Second: It is NEVER referred by ANYONE as "drunken dance"....
"This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking" C'mon! give me a break. The whole section is garbage. We are not writing a fairy tale, we write an encyclopedia article. I am reverting. If you want to discuss it do it here. If you want to write something i the article please do. But dont give me this fairy tale crap again. Yangula (talk) 20:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good job Mr. Yangula. If you are going to make personal attacks, at least spell correctly. The word is know, not "knoe" as you spelled it. Perhaps you should stop going on a personal crusade and making attacks against people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.124.104 (talk) 23:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yangula, what are your credentials that you call other people's posts crap? Are you an expert in the subject matter? Do you hold a degree? Did you write a book or a publised article perhaps? Please enlighten us all as to your judgments as to what is crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.124.104 (talk) 23:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I read the research paper by Nikos Politis. He is surely known in the internet community and has a respectfull opinion. But I think that Zeibekiko is a folk dance and it was not born in the twentieth century. It may not be a folk dance in most of mainland Greece, but it is a folkdance on many of the Aegean Islands and, of course, in Asia Minor (I am not sure about Thrace but it is possible).
The dance originated from the Zeybek warriors of Asia Minor and was partly introduced in Greece after the 1923 population exchanges. What do we mean with partly here?
It has been suggested that the greek Rebetiko composer Markos Vamvakaris from the island of Syros played a role of paramount importance in shaping and popularizing this musical and dance genre.
If we mean the musical genre Rebetiko, he sure has. I wouldn't say it about the dance though. By his time (his recording began 1932) Zeibekiko was allready a popular dance. This can be seen in the Greek discography.
Now about the rythmic pattern: I don't quite understand why some people (mostly westerners) call it 9/4. The pattern is 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 (This is one form of many, the "classic" form). It is obviously 9/8. (by the way Nikos Politis in his paper has made some major mistakes about the rhythms) Yangula (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to correct whatever you consider incorrect as long as you provide sources for your edits. As far as "partly" is concerned you are probably right about its ambiguity but if you read the Politis paper you will find out that he uses a similar expression (in part) without further explanations. I am not sure whether the musical and dance genre should be treated as separate entities but again feel free to change it if you find it inprecise or misleading. You are right in pointing out that the zeibekiko was well established in Greek discogrpaphy by the time Vamvakaris came to the fore but again the importance of his contribution is not my personal opinion but the view held by Politis. If you ask me the rest of the article also needs more sources because in its present state it largely consists of OR. --Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 18:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe (but can't verify as I don't read Greek well enough) that Markos describes how, in his childhood on Syros, there were what he called "dance schools" teaching how to perform zeybekiko dances. Incidentally, you'll find that if Nikos Politis says a thing in one of his papers, he does have a reliable source for it. The Real Walrus (talk) 09:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kamilieriko music and dance
Some musicians have related this rhythm to a form of zeimbekiko and the Zeybek tribes.
Kamilieriko may refer to the way the dancer holds his body to somewhat resemble the camel's hump (Kamili...)
A popular rembetika song which is in the rhythyum of Kamilieriko is "ta matoklada sou lamboun" ΤΑ ΜΑΤΟΚΛΑΔΑ ΣΟΥ ΛΑΜΠΟΥΝ by Markos Bambakaris Μάρκος Βαμβακάρης . You may find examples of this the youtube website.
Hi! I removed the reference to 2003's Hydra conference, because:
Geocities were shut down by the end of 2009 (original url was: www.geocities.com/HydraGathering/programme2003.html); I was too lazy to search the webarchives
the program is available here, but does not support it's claim.
The Zeibekiko Conference (also from geocities) is a rather poor reference. I changed it to the archived version until a better reference shows up. →Alfie±Talk23:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
good afternoon. some expainings,The zeimpekikos comes the first part of Zeus and the second from the injectors or vekos this word meaning "bread" in Herodotus as the dictionary says,after in the years of Othomany Greeks from Thrace take this name from there Its clearly that belongs in ancient Greece where Thracians later founded a colony in Asia Minor Tralleis so Its about greek ancient world and must reference it in article zeibekiko,otherwise its vandalism of Greek history and historicals will surely report all that.
Now a second observation (for God sh..) its in article of "music of Greece" , specifficly in "laiko" wherever you research on google! ,whorever writer you ask!,there is nowhere! a similar "wrong" explaination about the laiko's genre coming .Where are you people when "somebody" vandalize with that ways the wiki?>??? why you do all this?
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Bility (talk) 22:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
![[3]](http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/westasia/art/pictures/hittitemusic.jpg){kind=link}