Talk:Philosophy

All roads lead to rome, or here

Why does every article lead back to philosophy if you click the first link that is not in brackets!!! as: http://www.reddit.com/tb/hgkdl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.205.98.81 (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Following the above mentioned phenomenon I have noticed the first few words of the article contain 'problems'. Now what is interesting is that this article is a loop around "Problem -> Answer -> Problem". I suggest someone with the appropriate rights to make this word a link to the relevant article. This would make a beautiful feature that most articles end up in philosophy, which ends up in a loops of problems and answers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathanjouty (talk • contribs) 18:24, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

This trivia was mentioned by Xkcd recently, and I tried it out. I started at spark plug, as suggested. I clicked the first link in every article that wasn't in parentheses or italics, and I eventually got to this page, as promised. MIND BLOWN. dogman15 (talk) 08:38, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I began with Eustachian tube. Junip (talk) 13:33, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I began with Mankada Ravi Varma. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.195.150.36 (talk) 14:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I began with Coati.

I began with Cheeseburger! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.74.121.102 (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I began with that Icelandic erupting volcano. Philosophy not obscured by the ash cloud! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.93.164.28 (talk) 16:28, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Greg Hunter (chosen at random) to philosophy in 25 pages.75.61.137.74 (talk) 20:39, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately now people are adding pointless or unhelpful links to the beginnings of articles to either lead people to Philosophy, or to lead them away. 220.245.167.225 (talk) 17:01, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

That's sad to hear ... but I imagine that the trick worked independently before people started doing that. Wikipedia naturally has a high frequency of articles that begin with the phrase "In politics" or "In biology" or "In medicine" etc. I imagine that these contextualizing terms are what make the phenomenon work. I started with Typhoid Mary. 159.83.252.233 (talk) 17:50, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

yes, it has to do with how the first sentence of the article puts the subject in context, so we are moving up the category tree, towards the top level subjects. however, XKCD was being deliberately snarky, as of course any path of links will eventually take you through every link (simple Turing algorithm, or some such idea), thus eventually to philosophy. as in "the last place i looked was where i found my car keys". what is fascinating is how quickly this happens. ideally, if we are adequately contextualizing each article on WP, we should reach a top level subject like philosophy in very few clicks. i came close but then veered away, sort of a blind mans walk, then came back. "Human" was the article which in 3 tries i was led to, which then led inexorably to here. so there are key articles that get linked to, for maximum proximity to here. i can see a sort of species wheel with links descending to the center.(mercurywoodrose)75.61.137.74 (talk) 20:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

any path of links will eventually take you through every link
I don’t think this is even feasible. Some links occur only in one article, and, as mentioned below, closed loops may exist. In order for this theory to be true just for this case, the first qualifying link in every article on Wikipedia would have to be unique among all Wikipedia articles—i.e. only one article on the entire site could begin with “In science,” etc. —Frungi (talk) 04:53, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I began with tinsel. I ran into a pathological loop, though, so I clicked a second link instead of a first, and surely enough, here I am. I think the people above me are on the right path of why this happens: wiki articles tend to begin by casting a topic into a subtier of something else, and philosophy happens to be a major core subject. Also, if people are actually editing wiki to affect this phenomenon either way, I am greatly disheartened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.143.100.58 (talk) 20:51, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

As of 7:51 PM EST, Ernest Hemingway breaks this rule. This will be true until someone edits Ernest Hemingway's page to no longer do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.162.207.31 (talk) 23:52, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Got here from Charlie Sheen. The path was circuitous enough that I don't think that someone planted a linke to philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.248.142.28 (talk) 11:48, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

My theory is that in the end most links will make you pass through science, which will then lead you to here. And philosophy will then make you end up in an infinite loop. --Tampert (talk) 07:43, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

In the case of Charlie Sheen it went through noun and taxonomy. I think the cause is that the overview sections of articles place the article in a larger context. The largest context arguably is philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.248.142.28 (talk) 11:51, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Random article transphobia got here in 33 moves. Future attempters can assume they've reached it if they hit science, mathematics, physics, causality, information, fact, nation, sovereign state... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.224.157.59 (talk) 16:48, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Someone messed with the article!!! Why does "existence" the first link on the philosophy page, go to "metaphysics" now? Now it goes philosophy->metaphysics->philosophy, whereas there used to be a much bigger loop that included physiology, math, fact, science, etc.... all way better topics than philosophy i might add. anyways, someone should switch it back! the article hasn't been rewritten someone just F'ed up the link to point to the wrong page ... Mike Y

Lede

Reverted to Revision as of 10:36, December 13, 2010. No case made in discssion ofr insertion of

It should be noted that philosophy is not seen by all as contained by rationality, and that philosophy may take the essence of rationality itself as a matter of study. Philogo (talk) 15:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I am curious how an extra-rational philosophy could even make an argument for itself without effectively denying its own premise, i.e. without becoming rational. Like the self-refuting assertion that "there is one absolute truth - that there is no absolute truth," so would a philosophy that denies reason destroy itself before it began, being void of any essence or usefulness, and immediately becoming a hypocritical philosophy if it should even try to assert itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.108.41 (talk)

Consistent with comment by 76.101.108.41, then, a philosophy may take the essence of rationality as the subject of study, but a philosophy may not state that it is NOT contained by rationality and remain a philosophy, because such a philosophy could not 1) analyze itself or 2) analyze other philosophies; not without denying its own premise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.239.69.194 (talk) 23:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

My own feeling looking at your proposal is your wording makes a simplistic, technically wrong and hard-to-understand comment out of what is actually a quite complex point. However the fact that philosophy can involve criticism of rationalism is worth mentioning somewhere in the article if it is not already. Note that no philosophy is not "contained by rationality" even if it criticized itself. In fact philosophy should always contain criticism of itself?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:40, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The proposal was not mine but that of User:90.202.85.123; I reverted his edit incorporating these words back to your version as of 10:36, December 13, 2010. (see history). Philogo (talk) 20:08, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry, anyway, that means I don't disagree with your reversion.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh Dear, looks like 90.202.85.123 is v fond of his revision, but not justifying it here.Philogo (talk) 22:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Multiple problems with this proposed addition: (1) it's too vague, (2) it's imprecisely sourced (cf. other references, where the specific is quoted), (3) the proffered references are primary sources rather than the secondary or tertiary sources found in the other references (shall we cite Aristotle or Aquinas's definitions of philosophy?), (4) it's an immaterial addition to the lede (shall we note all the other things some philosopher or another has questioned about the nature of philosophy?). 271828182 (talk) 23:54, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Quite. I have invited 90.202.85.123 to discuss his proposal on this talk page. Suggest you and .--Andrew Lancaster encourage him to do so Philogo (talk) 00:12, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello there! The citations I have made are direct examples of philosophers working from outside or before the rules of rational argument - this is why it's not necessary to make use of secondary lit. Rational argument is certainly one mode of philosophical discourse, however it is not the only one - I feel this is an important area of philosophy to represent in an article such as this, especially whilst philosophers who disavow the method of rational argument where it is not applicable are mentioned. This is the case in Heidegger's discussion of moods in "What is Metaphysics?" where he explicitly calls doubt upon the suitability of such a mode of engagement with the phenomenon. Phenomenology itself, a whole movement in philosophy, is a descriptive, non-rational method of doing philosophy. As for the lucidity of my entry, I've since clarified what I was getting at - I'm a messy writer from time to time, guilty. 90.202.85.123 (talk) 01:17, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello 90.202.85.123 if it is you; please sign your edits so we know. You do you not appear to have responded to the comments above by Andrew Lancaster and 271828182 and me.Philogo (talk) 01:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey again, yes it's me. I've tidied up my addition to the article and would love your feedback, cheers.90.202.85.123 (talk) 01:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello. I do not think the following sentence you have added (never mind how true or well put or referenced)is appropriate in the lede. I think you should post suggested amendements to the lede on this page BEFORE you implement them. (You should be aware that the lede as was was arrived at by consensus among some twelve editors some many months ago and has remained remarkable stable ever since. As I recall it we spent at least a week and maybe 500 comments just on the rationality characterisation of philosophy.) Philogo (talk) 01:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

However, philosophy is not seen by all practitioners as limited by the methods of rational argument, and some philosophers see the suitability of such methods of engagement with problems as a matter for investigation.

With respect, it was my understanding when approaching the philosophy page that it was to provide a short summation of philosophy, which must of course be free from over-representing one view to the detriment of another. My intentions were not at all to sully the hard and admirable work of your good selves, but simply and humbly to make sure the lede was not misleading to any who read it. Any breach of wikipedian etiquette was not intentionally malicious, but simply sprang from unfamiliarity - I'm new to this community after all. In any case, happy to be on board! CsmSgn (talk) 01:48, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Note 271828182 said above it's an immaterial addition to the lede (shall we note all the other things some philosopher or another has questioned about the nature of philosophy?). and Andrew Lancaster said the fact that philosophy can involve criticism of rationalism is worth mentioning somewhere in the article if it is not already. You will see that prior to your edit the lede consisted of just three sentences. It was purposly terse. The second sentence It is distinguished by some from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument The purpose of that sentence was to differentiate Philosophy from other disciplines that might claim to be also be concerned with the matters outlined in the first sentence (e.g. Religion). I think we should revert to the orginal lede, and if you want to argue that the article should make your point somewhere then you should do so suggesting the appropriate section. If we accept into the lede one (metaphilosophical) view then to acheive balance we would have to admit a hundred others!Philogo (talk) 02:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the first practical concern is that if this type of thing is going to be mentioned it should at least be a clear and meaningful sentence. Then we'd have something to discuss. BTW the sourcing is also questionable. Let me put this another way: Would everyone agree that the two cited books of Nietzsche and Heidegger clearly are examples of "practitioners" who are not "limited by the methods of rational argument", and who see the "suitability" of "the methods of rational argument" for engaging "with problems" as a matter for investigation? Is it clear what the "methods of rational argument" even are in this context?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the first practical concern is whether the lede is reverted. If CsmSgn wants to argue that the article should include his sentence elsewhere he should do so in a new section below saying in what section of the article it should go. I note that Nietzsche and Heidegger are discussed in a section entitled Existentialism.Philogo (talk) 13:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it is dubious that this belongs in that section either. Rousseau was the first person to question whether reason was all it was cracked up to be. He influenced Kant, German Idealism, Burke, and Romanticism. From there we get people like Hegel, Nietzsche etc. But that does not mean any of them were not using rational argument themselves when "investigating" the "problems" of reason. So I think that yes, the sentence as it stands is not suitable. Practically I'd say that before discussing what might be acceptable though we should see proposals here on the talk page that actually make some uncontroversial and clear sense. Because philosophy is knowing you are ignorant, in the classical formulation, doubt about its own power goes back to the beginning and it is possible the subject of such doubt might be able to fitted properly in the lead.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure that Rousseau was the first person to question whether reason was all it was cracked; I am no historian but I thought such views were ten-a-penny. As you intimate the matter would be pertinent in the lede only if some philosophers of repute argued with irrationality being the basis and not the object of thier arugument, thus beng a caveat to the seond sentence in the lede. I still however believe that the first practical concern is whether the lede is reverted.Philogo (talk) 15:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes and no, and of course this is the problem - how to explain it in such a way that it is meaningful. Like I said, doubting the value of rationality is part of philosophy since the beginning, because philosophy in a sense studies doubts. There are all kinds of doubts about rationality. The doubt about whether it can discover what is true for example. Rousseau's doubts were a bit shocking and special in that doubted that man was even rational by nature, and therefore whether being a thoughtful person could make you unhappy. (Of course non philosophers always said that, but this was a philosopher saying it.) He is the ultimate source of some of the more "continental" and "post modern" angsts. I am not against reverting the lede. The current sentence does not say anything I think can be sourced. It might be intended to mean something else, but then by this stage it would be better to try ideas out here on a talk page and not on the article.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:57, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

If it agreed we whould revert, then perhaps you better do it. I did it last time and I am wary of being party to a revert war.Philogo (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey again, been away from the computer for a week on yuletide family business - hope you're both having a good one! With regards the idea that to include one metaphilosophical position we would have to include a hundred - does this not stand also for the position that philosophy depends on rational argument? By your own admission, if we include one then we open the floodgates to more. If you do not want the lede to become too complicated then should we include either, at the risk of bias? As it stands the lede misrepresents philosophy as a whole. As mentioned, phenomenology is a descriptive, non-rational method of tackling philosophy - and much Eastern philosophy does not rely on rationality at all. To sell them both with the stamp of rationality is a huge oversight in my opinion. CsmSgn (talk) 13:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

As Philogo well knows, this argument has been going on for years! Hi, Philogo.

I fought for the position that if philosophy is by definition rational, then questions about rationality are by definition not philosophical questions, just as questions about whether or not we should accept the parallel postulate are by definition not questions within Euclidean geometry. I took the position that we should argue for rationality within philosophy instead of assuming rationality a priori.

This fight I lost. Have fun. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

My 2 cents. I see no reason to believe that defending itself is part of what defines philosophy. Philosophy is not like religion, and also for the same reason it is not like any fixed body of axioms and proofs such as found in Euclid. Indeed, when it comes to being critical of itself, philosophy is like the opposite of a fixed doctrine. I also see no way that you can have questioning, arguing etc about any subject as philosophical as rationality/reason itself, which is not philosophical in at least a broad sense.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:51, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi Rick. Rick's argument that if philosophy is 'by definition' rational, then questions about rationality are 'by definition' not philosophical questions is apparently of the form if X is by definition Y then questions about Y are by definition not Xish questions which I find puzzling. Can Rick parse this in a way that it is clearly a logical truth? Can Rick give some other examples of arguments of this form? Does he mean (a) If maths is by definition numerical then numerical qustions are by definition not mathematical questions or (b) If music is (by definition) an art then questions about art are (by defintion) not musical questions. or (c) If Biology is (by definition) a science then scientific questions are (by definition) not biological questions. Sorry, I just cannot see how the preceeding three sentences are necessarily true. Perhaps I am just a bit thick, innitPhilogo (talk) 16:27, 22 December 2010 (UTC).

We are not trying to stipulate a "true" definition of philosophy (whatever that would be). This is an encyclopedia, not an essay in metaphilosophy. As such, the lede needs to contain a well-sourced explanation of how the word "philosophy" is used. Heidegger and Nietzsche are partisan primary sources, and as such don't fit Wikipedia policies for preferred sources: just as it would be wildly inappropriate to cite L. Ron Hubbard in the lede paragraph for an article on psychology, or Young Earth creationism in the lede of an article on cosmology. An encyclopedia article does not need to reflect all views, and the view that rationality is optional is a fringe view. WP:FRINGE 271828182 (talk) 20:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I do not think this is the right explanation of the problem. If Nietzsche and Heidegger said something clearly and agreed on it, it would be very notable and we could consider it. Comparing them to L Ron Hubbard is just plain weird. Fact is that to distill the words we are talking about from Nietzsche and Heidegger requires a lot of creativity and is not uncontroversial.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:02, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Andrew here. Part of the problem is that people confuse rational with empirical and forget about concepts such as coherence and abduction. Rational is a broad church with many houses, but its opposite is irrational which has no place in philosophy, and never has. --Snowded ^TALK 08:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, don't know if this helps, but one complexity to this is though that it is possible to have a rational argument defending not being rational. I think this type of rational argument, found in Rousseau and Nietzsche, is what is causing confusion. Thing is that both these gentlemen knew they were being rational about being irrational, and could not avoid that because they were philosophers. And the problem, they realized, was also a problem for non-philosophers. All mdoern people are basically brought up rationally. Their questions were about whether this is really good.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 16:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Snowded. Every time I see your name, I think, "Where are the Snowdeds of yesteryear?"

To answer Philogo's question, I'll try to be more clear. If philosophy is by definition rational, then a person, usually considered a philosopher, who argues irrationally, as in "The word that can be spoken is not the true word," is not "really" a philosopher. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:43, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Rick: That's quite different to if philosophy is 'by definition' rational, then questions about rationality are 'by definition' not philosophical questions and seems to be of the form If by definition doing X is doing Y then if Z is doing not-Y then Z is not doing X (As in If running is by definition moving quickly then if Z moving un-quickly then Z is not running.). However I am sure you would agree it does allow the possibility of e.g. somebody arguing rationally (not necessarily correctly) that arguing rationally does not necessarly result in significant truth (easy e.g. valid but unsound argument). Wittgenstein seems to argue thus in Tractatus LP. Philogo (talk) 14:49, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

My thoughts on this matter: the current lede is defining philosophy in terms of its use of rational methodology. But philosophy, being by its nature reflexive, takes its methodologies also as its subject matter; and in that vein the proposed change to the lede is stating that philosophers sometimes question rational methodologies. But that does not contradict the definition of philosophy in terms of rational methodology, for as Andrew says above, the philosophers who question rational methodologies are doing so using rational methodologies... as opposed to, say, painting abstract art "challenging the hegemony of rationality in the modern world" or something, which would not be a rational method of questioning rationality.

The upshot: the proposed lede is true enough, in spirit anyway, but doesn't serve the "balancing" purpose that its contributor seems motivated by, because it doesn't actually add any kind of qualification to the definition of philosophy. It's sort of a tangential aside about some conclusions in one subject area of philosophy, in a sentence about the methods of philosophy (with the confusion coming about because philosophy takes its methods as one of its subject areas), and as such I don't think it belongs in the lede. But maybe something about this could be elaborated upon in Metaphilosophy? (Which, by the way, I still think needs a summary here {{main}}'d to that article). --Pfhorrest (talk) 19:08, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

A thought on this: maybe add a phrase like "While the definition and methods of philosophy are themselves subjects of philosophical debate..." to the beginning of the second lede sentence in question.? --Pfhorrest (talk)

That would need to be sourced. Note that the current lede is quite precisely and robustly sourced. 271828182 (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Nothing could be easier; that sentence is no more than noting "hey by the way metaphilosophy exists". I'm just feeling out for thoughts on this approach as a resolution to the lengthy debate above which seems to have died out without resolution.

A quick first-page-of-Google source, from the IEP article Contemporary Metaphilosophy, which begins: "What is philosophy? What is philosophy for? How should philosophy be done? These are metaphilosophical questions, metaphilosophy being the study of the nature of philosophy..."

"What is philosophy?" and "How should philosophy be done?" are questions about the definition and methods of philosophy if I've ever heard them, and metaphilosophy is a branch of philosophy, therefore philosophy investigates questions about its own definition and methods. --Pfhorrest (talk) 05:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Adding the phrase "While the definition and methods of philosophy are themselves subjects of philosophical debate..." to the beginning of the second lede sentence would not improve the lede even if sourced.— Philogos (talk) 01:10, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

If metaphilosophy is a main branch of philosophy, and if then are sources to support that, then it should be shown in the article as such. NB according to the article metaphilosophy "Morris Lazerowitz claims to have launched the term around 1940 and apparently has used it in print in 1942[3]." — Philogos (talk) 01:10, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Have you all forgotten that this article is not just about Western philosophy...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.11.213.157 (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, if philosophy refers to any "deep" wisdom literature or school of thought, which it sometimes can, then yes this article should and does try to touch upon non western philosophy. However the word and concept "philosophy" is basically a western as far as I know, and when used strictly is not intended to simply refer to any deep and wise literature or school of thought.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

This is a topic discussed ad infinitum over the past ten years, but most sources still describe Confucius as a Chinese philosopher. Rick Norwood (talk) 19:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

It takes a mathematician to suggest that something has been going on ad infinitum over a finite period of time (ten years); how does that work Rick?— Philogos (talk) 00:19, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Roughly the same way saying a Chinese philosopher is not a philosopher works. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:05, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

You mean not at all?

LOL. Putting the jokes aside though, can I just check to see that we have a basic agreement that philosophy, like lots of words, has several different definitions? I believe that such situations can be handled with common sense. The strictest sense, whereby philosophy is a rational way of life, but with "nature" as it is experienced as its object (distinguishing it clearly from the pursuit of religion or other traditional lore) definitely needs to be covered. I am aware that there is an argument that this strictest understanding of this definition started in Ancient Greece and is western + Islamic. OTOH, clearly Chinese and Indian and other more sophisticated "Eastern philosophies" are definitely often referred to as philosophy, and definitely touch upon many of the same themes as western philosophy. We must cover them. Whilst amongst broader senses, the very broad ones such such as when the wisdom lore of tribal cultures is called philosophy, are probably only going to get passing mentions if anything.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Thoughts on current definition of Philosophy

Thoughts i like to share but not sure if this is the right avenue. This is also my first post. If i am doing something wrong please tell me.

This is the current definition of philosophy on wikipedia. "Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] It is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument."

To me, philosophy is the thinking and theorizing process that exist before and between actions for the purpose of discovering truth and what to do with it. All established academic disciplines, economics, physics and everything else were all initially the subject of philosopher’s contemplation. Philosophers thought about them until they convince themselves to move beyond thinking up theories to understand those subjects and onto actually proving their theories, with scientific methods developed by other philosophers. Where scientific method can be effectively applied to prove theories about the subject, advanced theories are able to be built on proven theories which can then proven by further application of scientific methods. Thus a loop is form and study of those subject become highly specialized giving birth to disciplines. Philosophers who become specialized in a particular discipline are then given name associated with their discipline, such as economist and physicist. Disciplines where scientific method are more applicable are grouped together under the broader label of science. The people who study a science discipline are brought under the broader label of scientist. These scientist are still philosophers who engage in philosophical theorizing between acts of proving their theories with scientific methods.

Subjects where the scientific method cannot be effectively applied, never got developed too far from the initial spark of thought about them. It only seems like philosophers only study general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language because understanding of them remains primitive (with all due respect); and philosophers who study specialized and advanced subjects are given broadly recognizable new labels.

Having already go on too long on the first sentence of wikipedia’s definition, let me just quickly end my view with the second sentence by saying this: Philosophical thinking usually involve critical, generally systematic approach and rational argument because they are usually the best when one try to think about truth and what to do about truth. Philosophy is not distinguished by its method, but by its intended goal and its limitation to thought. Utoneo (talk) 07:03, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

You need to find some reliable third party sources to back up that perspective before we can considered any use --Snowded ^TALK 07:38, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

We need to make the article as neutral as possible which means it has to cover all mainstream approaches reasonably well, as they appear in reputable publications. That does not mean we can't handle all the variant ideas further down in the article, but the first line is a line where we have the difficult job of not "picking a winner" but still saying something meaningful. So ideas are welcome, but indeed you'll need to present your ideas in terms of what published sources say, and don't say.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:05, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. i will be back if i manage to find some sources. Utoneo (talk) 06:57, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you should look at Metaphilosophy if you are less interested in philosophy than the definition of philosophy. — Philogos (talk) 20:23, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

New External Link: Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy Online

I would like to add REP Online to the list of relevant external links within this article and other related articles but I am mindful of Wikipedia's rules and objectives and don't want to contradict the purpose of the site. Any thoughts? Claremethven (talk) 11:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Wisdom and Not

Recently, an editor removed this article from the category "Greek inventions". I reverted, not because I necessarily disagree with the removal, but because I think it should be discussed first. The article makes a claim for the "wisdom literature" of Mesopotamia being philosophy. This claim is based primarily on a single source, the article "Wisdom and Not". One source does not a consensus make. The article "Wisdom and Not" is defensive, beginning with a long analogy, and recognizing that the claim it defends is not generally accepted.

If "wisdom literature" is philosophy, there is a great deal of it, in essentially every culture, from the Hebrews to the American Indians. It usually boils down to a few philosophical nuggets. The wisdom of God passeth human understanding. The days of a man are short, and filled with suffering. When a God or Goddess falls in love with a mortal, it usually ends badly for the mortal.

Is wisdom literature philosophy, or does philosophy require more of a systematic development, with reasoning that goes beyond a simple assertion of what seem obvious principles?

Rick Norwood (talk) 11:59, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, it depends on how we define "philosophy". If we define philosophy as the article defines it, that it is the "study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language", then philosophy has existed among many cultures, since humanity has always pondered these fundamental problems. Even if we exclude the folk philosophers of the Near East, Indian and East Asian philosophies developed independently of the Greeks.

My main concern is with the assertion that the Greeks invented all philosophy, not just Western philosophy, which is a controversial claim. The Mesopotamian source is just one example of a counter-argument, and not the only one. John Plott, in his Global History of Philosophy, argues that philosophy arose out of religion, not just for the Greeks, but for the East Asians and Indians at around the same time, sixth century BC (p. 8). An Epitome of the History of Philosophy by Louis Bautain and Caleb Sprague Henry attributes India, rightfully or not, as the cradle of world philosophy (p. 16). Ben-Ami Scharfstein in his A Comparative History of World Philosophy, discounts Near Eastern philosophies, Egyptian and Mesopotamian, but considers Chinese, Indian, and Greek philosophies to be true philisophical traditions, dating the origins of Indian philosophy to 8th century BC, and Greek and Chinese philosophies to 6th century BC (p. 11).

A common theme becomes clear, world philosophers attribute the origins of philosophy to many different cultures, while classicists do not. By categorizing philosophy as purely a Greek invention, we are making a point of view in favor of the classicists. For the sake of neutrality, and to account for the viewpoints of both classicists and world philosophers, we should not include any category on the invention of philosophy, whether it be Greek, Near Eastern, East Asian, or Indian.--Ninthabout (talk) 19:03, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

You make a good case, with cited sources, though the origin of Indian philosophy is notoriously hard to date, and 8th century BCE seems too early to substantiate. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Scharfstein lists Aruni as the earliest "great philosophers" of Indian philosophy, around 8th century BCE. The date could be early, I can't vouch for it since my knowledge of Hindu philosophy is rudimentary, but that is what he says.--Ninthabout (talk) 03:35, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Aruni is an interesting character, but it is not clear to me whether he is a historical person or a mythic sage, and his great teaching, "Thou art God" sounds more like wisdom literature than like philosophy. Heinlein used it in Stranger in a Strange Land, but much as I love Heinlein, I'm not convinced that "Thou are God" is philosophy, unless there is some sort of context to back it up. Scharfstein is just one source -- do other sources agree? By the way, Ben-Ami Scharfstein is an interesting writer. Somebody should create a Wikipedia article about him. Rick Norwood (talk) 12:25, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Philosophy of mind

Isn't phylosophy of mind a division of metaphysics?--Anuclanus (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

It's is not normally treated as such.— Philogos (talk) 19:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

It is, but analytic philosophers consider metaphysics meaningless. TFD (talk) 05:08, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean it is (a) a division of metaphysics (b) normally treated as such?— Philogos (talk) 00:33, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

(a) Yes, absolutely (it's the most meta- of metaphysics);

(b) No, at least not in analytic-dominated departments in the English-speaking world. That has less to do with the meaning of the term metaphysics and more to do with cultural distaste for it after Wittgenstein et al. (What's the opposite of 'buzzword'? 'Pariahnym'?) — LlywelynII 21:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

You are asking in the wrong place. Tryy Talk:Philosophy of mind and/or Talk:Metaphysics. Guy Macon (talk) 07:33, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

That's unhelpful. If it's discussed on this page, it's worth discussing here. — LlywelynII 21:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I think the simple answer is no. Of course all types of philosophy bounce off each other, but to the extent they are normally broken into pieces, metaphysics and philosophy of mind are not the same thing. Please see the two articles about those subjects.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Metaphysics#History says, "other problems considered metaphysical for centuries are now typically subjects of their own separate regions in philosophy, such as philosophy of religion, philosophy of mind, philosophy of perception, philosophy of language, and philosophy of science" (my emphasis). The mind-body problem is part of metaphysics, but analysts reject metaphysics and therefore see it as a different branch. TFD (talk) 23:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)