Talk:Charon

comment

Regarding this sentence near the end of the Charon entry: “The dwarf planet Pluto's largest moon is named Charon, and while not directly named after this figure, it did influence the choice.[10]” A minor (?) grammatical note: What's the antecedent of the pronoun “it” in that sentence?

One web site (among many) has this to say about the name:

Christy’s first thought was to name the new moon in honor of his wife, Char (short for Charlene), but the established international naming rules for astronomical objects prevented this. However, fate intervened: while looking through a book on Greco-Roman mythology, Christy was amazed to discover that the name of the ferryman who piloted dead souls across the River Styx and into Pluto’s realm was named Charon. The name was ideal, melding the official nomenclature requirements with his desire to honor his wife.

Perhaps something could be drawn from that and cited with a reputable published source (?).NickStuy (talk) 07:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I came to this article for info about Charon Himself and found this section a little puzzling. There is a cite, albeit to only one article (the same article cited - as far as I can tell - by every other website that tells the 'Charlene' story). So I'm not sure what I can ask for that would ease my doubts on this - I must presume that one cite is good enough. It's just that the 'Charlene' story (with all due respect to the lady herself) strikes me as a little implausible, given the already well-established convention of naming planets and moons after figures from mythology. Venetia Burnley named Pluto (the planet*) because of Pluto's (mythology) role as god of the (supposedly) dark and cold Underworld.

At best, it seems a pretty powerful coincidence if Christy just happened to settle on 'Charon' because it was a 'scientific-sounding variant on his wife Charlene's nickname', and only then discovered the mythological connection to Pluto. The simple coincidence of four letters would have been more realistic: are we sure that the article cited (which I can't access) isn't saying he chose Charon because the mythological name bore a similarity with that of his wife? - Silvensis (talk) 09:17, 22 March 2011 (UTC) (* I make no secret: I'm one of the "It's an Unnecessary Distinction" crowd.)

corrections and additions re Dante and Michelangelo

I went ahead and deleted the phrase describing the obolus, which is not in Dante, and added a clarifying sentence to explain why Michelangelo depicts Charon in the Sistine Chapel as a demonic figure beating with an oar the souls in his boat. Also clarified the claim that Charon is the first named figure in Dante (by saying first named mythological figure). Dante sees and names Virgil in canto 2.NickStuy (talk) 06:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Error regarding Dante

Re: Dante Alighieri also described Charon in his Divine Comedy. He is the same as his Greek counterpart, being paid an obolus to cross Acheron. Not so! Dante makes no reference whatsoever to an obolus. His depiction of Charon is based on Virgil's depiction in Aeneid Book 6. Dante knew no Greek and there were no translations of Greek literature (where Charon appears) available to him. (At most he had medieval summaries of authors such as Homer (where Charon does not appear). I will leave it up to those interested in this entry to make any corrections, but suggest the sentence in question be deleted. More detail might be added by reading Inferno canto 3.NickStuy (talk) 06:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Comments

I am in search of pictures or images of Charon. I want to have my guitar airbrushed with Charon's image. Please email me with pics or links at: the_bellwitch@yahoo.com

Thank you!

If anyone can supply a primary source for the parentage of Charon being Erebus and Nyx, please let me know at jonnewman@yahoo.com

Acheron vs. Styx (mythology) .... I see references to both vis a vis where Charon plied his trade. Can someone provide evidence one way or the other (Wikipedia itself seems in conflict). dml 03:08, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Mythica, a non-academic but pretty well done site, claims that Charon is usually said to have ferried souls across the Styx, but that this is a misconception. There's no source, though, so it's not authoritative... Tuf-Kat 07:27, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

From Virgil's Aeneid 6.322: “Anchisa generate, deum certissima proles, Cocyti stagna alta vides Stygiamque paludem, di cuius iurare timent et fallere numen. Haec omnis, quam cernis, inops inhumataque turba est; portitor ille Charon; hi, quos vehit unda, sepulti." (“Son of Anchises, offspring of the gods, Yon are Cocytus and the Stygian stream, By whose dread power the gods themselves do fear To take an oath in vain. Here far and wide Thou seest the hapless throng that hath no grave. That boatman Charon bears across the deep Such as be sepulchred with holy care.) Stygian equals "Styx" Text and translation from the Perseus Project. CaveatLector 02:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Britanica reference

According to the Encycylopedia Britanica Online Charon escorted dead souls across both Acheron and Styx. There is no indication of which work uses which River, nor which river is first referenced.

Plagerized

This whole article has been copied from encyclopedia.com's article on Charon. Shame on this "author"...

Pronounciation?

--Greasysteve13 14:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Like Sharon. Therequiembellishere 01:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I wish I had a cite for that. I'd like to add the pronunciation guide here. Anyone have a decent source? --GPa Hill (talk) 14:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

It is pronounced like karon, although it is sometimes mispronounced like the name sharon. Incidently, when James Christy discovered Pluto's largest moon, he named it Charon because it kept in line with naming astronomical objects after mythological figures, and also because it was spelt like his wife's name abbreviated (I think her name was Charlotte?), although they aren't pronounced the same way. ArdClose (talk) 01:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

River God?

In D’Aulaire’s Book of Greek Myths, there is a river god with the same name, though it doesn't mention a connection with Styx, in fact, I believe it gives an entirely different river. Any takes on this? Therequiembellishere 01:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Davy Jones

In POTC:At Worlds End, It seems as if Davy Jones has Charon's Job, Ferrying the dead to their final resting place. Could this be included in the "In Popular Culture section? EbeneezerSquid 10:18, 29 June 2007 (CST)

Meta-wiki

Congratulations on citing wikipedia in a wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.29.129.130 (talk) 02:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

God of War Section

Um, I think the section is a little long, and should be relocated to a pop culture section. Anyone agree?--Romulus (talk) 22:23, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Para. 3: "to and fro" - or "to and from [destination]"?

In the third paragraph, I edited "to and from" (prepositions missing an object) to "to and fro" (idiom meaning "back and forth") [2008-05-16T22:43:58]. However, it would make more sense as "to and from [destination]" if the error was an omission rather than a misspelling. Does anyone know if the "to and from [destination]" version would be more accurate/appropriate, and if so, what [destination] should read? Memetics (talk) 07:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Unkempt Mourning

As I understand it the reason that Charon is unshaved and generally a bit grubby (at least in the Aeneid) is because Romans had a tradition of going without washing or shaving for several days to mourn the recently deceased. Since he's eternally ferrying the dead back and fourth, Charon is an eternal state of mourning. At least that's what I was taught Darien Shields (talk) 04:59, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Genealogy

Was he or was he not the son of Erebus and Nyx (Nox)? The article gives the impression that it can't be known, while other online articles (like encarta or even wikipedia in different languages) state as a fact that Erebus was his father. 86.34.187.2 (talk) 01:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, in the Nyx (mythology) article, it says Charon was the son of Nyx and Erebus. Why does this article imply genealogy is unknown? ArdClose (talk) 01:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Did you check the source cited? When I followed the link (to Googlebooks), the book loaded but not the page intended; try searching the word "genealogical" when you get there. I'm the one who changed the sentence and added this link because I couldn't find any substantiation of the Erebos and Nyx genealogy. If you check out Sourvinou-Inwood's book online, you'll see that she made an extensive study of Charon, and you may be able to follow her sources if you're interested. I traced Erebos as the father of Charon to one of Smith's 19th-century dictionaries, but I can't find anything else to support that. The passage is given at Theoi.com on the Charon page (here); since Smith is rarely flat-out wrong, I assume there's a source somewhere, some Alexandrian or Byzantine mythographer, or some cousin to a Gnostic, but it doesn't belong in Wikipedia unless it can be verified, and as it stands, Smith's passing reference doesn't outweigh the more thorough and extensive treatment of Charon. As FOR other encyclopedias, an encyclopedia is not a source, it's a reference work. Not to be a smartass, but it refers to something -- and in Smith's case this time, it's unclear what. Online encyclopedias often just cannibalize each other and replicate misinformation (as is the case with many, many references online to Charon's obol being placed on the eyes, which is never what the ancient literary sources say and which is only rarely, and then often dubiously, supported by any archaeology, at least for antiquity or the medieval era). Theoi.com, which gathers sources with admirable care and abundance, gives Erebos and Nyx as parents -- but none of his primary-source passages confirm this either. Nyx is never mentioned in the passages quoted; the two sources who mention Erebos don't say or imply that Charon is his son. The WIkipedia article on Nyx does indeed say that Nyx was the mother of Charon, and seems to say that Hesiod's Theogony is the source. I'm not finding that in my translation, nor in the discussion of the Children of Night in my particular text. I don't have a Greek edition at hand, but will check further. The text of the Theogony is particularly troubled, and that may be the source of the problem; the entry in Smith may be based on a neglected reading. My solution, therefore, was to note a work of scholarship from the 1990s that focuses at length on Charon; although some of her interpretations of the meaning of Charon may be open to criticism, she is a methodical researcher of sound scholarly credentials. I'm sorry this has disturbed a number of people, and will be happy if someone can find actual sources for this proposed genealogy. It's possible this is from a poet of a later era, which then should be distinguished as a literary construct rather than an integral part of Charon's mythico-religious meaning in antiquity. I didn't expect the information to be so elusive, actually. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Still haven't turned up Charon among the Children of Night (Nyx); however, the disseminator of the notion that Charon is the son of Nyx and Erebos appears to be a handbook called Dictionary of Ancient Deities online. Although no less than Oxford University Press is the publisher, this is a very general book that treats world mythologies, and I see no indication of where they got this genealogy. My distinction between reference works and sources applies. I still think the specialist work by Sourvinou-Inwood carries more weight, and the lack of any citation of a primary source is suspicious, but when I have the chance to get to the library I'll check Pauly-Wissowa, which ought to give the ancient sources if they exist. Cynwolfe (talk) 02:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Coin in mouth, not eyes

Charon's obol was placed in the mouth or on the lips of the dead person. The passage from Callimachus cited in the footnote specifies the mouth (read it in English here, with the Greek available on the previous page). No literary source in antiquity mentions coins on the eyes. The archaeological record produces very rare and disputed instances of a pair of coins that may have been placed on the eyes, but this is not certain. Please see the article on Charon's obol for a thorough discussion of the evidence; see especially the section Coins on the eyes?. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

As I agree with this statement, it is known that Catholics took this practice and tweeked it. They would place a bribe to a ferryman, one coin on each eye.

Umm

I'm really not sure how to add references, but on here, its etymology is "fierce brightness": behindthename.com pretty interesting, imo. HoopoeBaijiKite 01:13, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

“References in popular culture” section

Where the hell did “In popular culture” section go? And why? It looks like it was deleted by User:TallNapoleon on 2009-05-06 and replaced by “In astronomy” section, without any argumentation of such a major edit. 217.172.21.161 (talk) 15:58, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

trapped if you take his oar thing?

Is this the same character who, if he could get someone to take his oar or something, they'd be trapped into taking his job until they could trick another person into it? Or is that someone else?--Tyranny Sue (talk) 06:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

pronunciation

I'm not convinced of /ˈkərɒn/ - surely you can't have a stressed schwa in English. Dictionary.com gives /ˈkɛərən, ˈkær-/, is that a good enough source? Lfh (talk) 17:53, 15 March 2010 (UTC)