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This page is to discuss the Wright Challenge and to ask for help. You can also go to the collaborations page to ask Museum curators for help
Challenge announced
The Challenge has been announced on 141 wikipedias today, using the table below. If you know a discussion page where this announcement could be placed, or if you think another editor would like to hear about the challenge, please spread the word! This table can be copied-and-pasted to any talk page on any wikipedia.
Please help: replace this red text with a translation of the English message below. Thank you!
This is the first multilingual Wikipedia collaboration. All Wikipedians can take part, in any Wikipedia language. The challenge runs from 1 May until 3 September 2011. Sign up now!
" Wikipedia is particularly pleased to see that Derby Museums are encouraging the creation of articles in languages other than English." (Jimmy Wales, 14 January 2011)
Ich glaube das ist nür richtig dass wir ein Raum wo wir können unsere Erfährung discutieren haben. Diese 'Challenge' ist interessant aber unheimlisch schwer. In die letzte Woche, hab ich Ubersetzungen des Whitehurst & Son sundial (1812) probriert. Ich will hier uber die Problemen schreiben.
To start the discussion I have listed areas where we could share our experiences.--ClemRutter (talk) 09:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Title- direct translations don't work
Whitehurst & Son sundial (1812) is meaningless abroad- Das Derbische Sonnenuhr- is more relevant in german, while Cadran solaire horizontale de précision makes more sense in French
Focused content
Each language needs to be focused towards what already exists on that Wikipedia
Style
The way that maths is presented is nationally specific
Lack of templates in each language space
Infobox artefact only exists in Chinese, Portuguese, English and Am.English- I need it in catalan, french, german, spanish, dutch. Is ca:Plantilla:Museu de Derby the way we wish Editing Template:Derby Museum to be presented. Are there language specific cultural and policy differences.
Just addressing the question above. I think accuracy must always be corrected. Its wrong to say accuracy is top priority. If that was the case we would wait until we had a perfect version (ie never) and then translate that. Correcting errors will obviouly mean that some versions are no longer as good as the original. But it could also mean that say Peter Perez Burdett (who had a retirement in Germany) might actually be better in German when the Germans spot that he has a German local hictory. The challenge is important - but the most important thing is to build this encyclopedia. If we can get some of these artefact templates created then they may be useful for the other language wikis. I do feel that we are finding out some useful stuff which will be useful for other museums and the Wright Challenge is becoming a surprising success. Well done all... so far Victuallers (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Over enthusiasm
<rant>
Excuse this little rant
There is a blatant error in the infobox of Derventio (Little Chester)- it is an obvious contradiction to the body of the article . It was reported on the discussion page on 15th May by Tappinen . Today we get a bot tag to fr:Derventio (Little Chester)- the article contains the erroneous infobox- and none of the body of the article. This was a 5 am edit- so tiredness is probably a factor, but in effect the information is totally wrong and any French reader is now likely to publish this as true. In our enthusiasm we do have a duty to make some elementary checks.
References
External Links
Categories
have all been taken across with out being translated. The cats are all naturally red links. In addition the links in the body of the article, go to disamb pages, and link on words such as anglais and ville- (overlinking). None have been checked. I would view this ébauche as harmful rather than constructive. All other translations appear accurate though Bahasa Indonesia needs to check the infobox
Would it be constructive to tabulate a list of checks that need to be made after the text has been transfered.
A quick reaction. On the participants page, participants usually claim their own scores but others afterwards check them (sometimes Victuallers, sometimes me, no doubt sometimes both). We've made lots of revisions of scores. Others could do this too. My impression is that participants tend to add a page to the list as soon as they've created it, and that improvements will sometimes continue after that moment (I don't know whether other observers have the same impression).
The most obvious point about this particular page is that the text is not yet long enough: I would certainly have reacted to that if it was still the case when I came to check it. I have also commented directly to participants when e.g. a reference needed rewriting. I agree this is important, and, again, others could do this too [but see also my note below -- no score has yet been claimed for this page].
The rules for the challenge don't include categories. In practice I myself add suitable categories in all languages if participants don't, but (in my experience) this is better delayed a short while: one-member categories tend to be deprecated, so the more potential member pages the better. Anyway, my checks are usually done several days after a page is created, and it hasn't ever happened as yet, on one of my checks, that the categories have been all red.
I suppose, in the world we're in, people aren't always going to read the talk page when translating an article, though no doubt it would be better if they did! It's unlucky if no English editor reacted to Tappinen's note; well, that happens too. But be fair, this is Wikipedia, there's no walled garden around these articles -- you could have corrected the English article if you noticed the comment, you could correct the French infobox right now. The only real purpose of all this is to have informative articles in many languages :) Andrew Dalby11:36, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
[A moment later:] On the French page, the reference is fine (I think): it's to an English book, and is correctly marked with the French template (en). The external links should be translated, I agree. Andrew Dalby11:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
[And another moment later:] But look, Clem, the participant hasn't even yet claimed a score of 1 for this page! Doesn't that maybe suggest that work is till in progress? Andrew Dalby12:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are several issues here-mmm lets start.
If the source doesn't make sense- then the target cannot make sense. Basic DP- validate your data first then process it!
We need to sort out this Derventio- business. If there were a global Roman Derby article Derventio (Littlechester) then we could slot in this fort with its disjointed history Derventio (Second Roman fort), and do another one on the vicus- but this is out of competence range. Then translators may have a fighting chance.
We could put together a advice template on doing stubs-- here's some starting thoughts.
Read the whole source article
Read a similar article in you target wiki
Ask yourself Does the lead sum up the article- If Yes
Translate the lead- it becomes the new stub
Copy over the infobox- check the content is in the target language
Copy over the References- note this may not may not be headed References in your target wiki- correct. The reference may contain a note or description that needs to be translated too.
Copy over the External Links- most will need to be removed as they will not be relevant in the target language, or changed as a target language version may be available.
Click on every link in your new stub- check that they link to a relevant/correct link in your target wiki- often they they will need to be disambiguated
When all is correct- add a link back to the source language wiki
Yes, I fully agree about the Derventio thing: we don't yet have a good basis for anyone to work from. But all in all I admire the way that our participants are somehow finding material about Derby and the collections and using it in all languages: this (I thought in advance) would be the biggest challenge of all.
As to those guidelines, our current participants are probably ahead of us already (or that's my impression!) Guidelines will help future challenges, though -- there will be more of them, that seems certain.
In detail:
we'd need to keep in mind that future challenges need not be translation-based. With Derby this was almost unavoidable because there's so little source material out there. But, yes, agreed, translating from another wiki will always be one handy way to get started.
external links: other language wikis usually accept good external links in any useful language, including English. But, yes, it's necessary to give a description in the target language!
I don't agree about leaving the interwiki link till last. The sooner the better, I'd say. Once it's there, more people can help. Andrew Dalby09:04, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Phase 2
I've gladly entered phase 2. Should I now update my list of contributions at Barnstars page, Participants page or both ?
How should the rule "... when verifiably made the best contributions, by the same point scores.." be interpreted ? Quality of quantity, and how do you verify quality on exotic languages ? Note that number of words used for same content differs by grammar ("in my book" = 3 words translates to "kirjassani" = 1 word, made of kirja-ssa-ni, book-in-my).
(I do not think this is serious, innovations are more important; thank you for organizing a fun challenge.)
Comments above talk about translating pages, while fi-wiki encourages writing text based on sources which the author can check himself/herself. So I've used the en-wiki pages to find reference material but written my own text based on them. Because I do not have access to all the cited books, I appreciate very much use of "external links" and "cite web".
I agree its silly to update two lists. I think you need to create your list for a barnstar and then forget that page. You can add new articles under participants. I'll try and make that clearer.
As for quality versus quantity, then I think we will only be able to judge quantity fairly and we will have to presume editors are doing a good job. Russian editors will need to look after each other etc. I have seen that some articles are not translations but include new information and different photographs. This is brilliant. I can see a few articles which I think are better in a language which isn't English. This is wonderful too. Good luck Victuallers (talk) 15:35, 13 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Bilingual problem..
The "in at least two languages" bit may be a problem for some - perhaps we should encourage people who are only semi-bilingual (as in: can read two languages, but only write one) to team up with others who have different language proficiencies. --Palnatoke (talk) 08:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I'm encouraging. You could make a request to an editor who also appears to have just one language to make a team, although we will allow Simple as one choice if you can write simple English. Victuallers (talk) 16:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Literature, resources
I sadly miss any hints to literature about the museum. Usually, a notable museum will have plenty of printed catalogues with scientific essays about certain topics, anniversary publications and so on. It also should be referenced multiple times from other references that seem also non existent. It's not a good practice to just translate an Wikipedia article or the museum's website, even less when there are no serious sources to re-check even simple facts. Nobody writes an featured or only good articles without proper sources. My approach on the talk page where I asked for sources was unanswered. --elya (talk) 13:31, 18 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the museum are aware that they have not published as much as we would like, however there are a large number of books which you can find via google books. The museum do have a collection of books which they will lend out (if not too valuable). I will poke the Derby curators to draw your note to their attention. Victuallers (talk) 16:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it would be nice to have more literature and better sources in the english article, as most of the participants will use this article as a starting point for their research. --elya (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Just thought about it: if there are some very useful very old books in the museum, could the relevant sections be scanned and put to the wikisource ? I mean, so old that the copyright expired, or in case of exhibition leaflets etc., if the museum has the copyright they can perhaps publish in CC. --Tappinen (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Length and scoring ?
Hello. How do we count number of words ? I copied the text to text editor (not in editing mode) and looked at statistics for the word count, and anything 100-500 words I claim 1 point as stub, over 500 words 5 points and under 100 words no points as sub-stub. Now I had a look at others and there are (counted with this method) 270 words for 5 points ? Should the number be from byte count in revision history or how ? --Tappinen (talk) 03:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Tappinen and the Conte di Sarre. You are correct. I would use a text editor to count. Some users may be claiming 490 ...hmmm.. OK. 270? No its obviously wrong and needs fixing. Please feel free to change any big errors as it will remind people of the rules. We will obviously be very strict on September 2nd! Hope that helps..... and good luck with the challenge Victuallers (talk) 15:28, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you are going to double-check every user couting before giving prizes... in some articles of mine I counted words and in others I assumed the lenght is more or less 500 chars, but I could be mistaken; anyway the final counting shouldn't differ much than the actual. Also you should decide whether infoboxes and references do count or don't.--Arnaugir (talk) 14:42, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Lvova - I'm not sure if I understand your question. It might be easiest to for you to try it. I can create a QRpedia and put it here if that will help?
Basically any visitor who sees one of these codes can use their phone to scan it. If they are Russian and they usually read their phone in Russian then they will be shown an article in Russian. It would be one that Lvova wrote. The article they are given on their phone is the normal Russian wikipedia article and all the Russian authors will be available and listed. (The "English " authors will not be mentioned at all.) I hope that is an answer? Does that help? Victuallers (talk) 20:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is an "English" code. If you scan it with a mobile phone that has instructions in Russian then it will be Russian and it will be Lvova's article. Do try it as well if you have written a version of "Earthstopper" as well... as it will appear in your language instead ... QRpedia magic
Anyone fancy using a map of the world and this wiki stuff to show where our 40 contributors/languages are? I know there is one in Minsk, and Kiev, and Barcelona, and Indonesia (somewhere) and Japan and Korea and .... I think if you added some then the rest would add themselves when they have a score of 6? Victuallers (talk) 14:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Taking up ClemRutter's point, above, I have done some rewriting on Strutt's Park Roman fort. I intend to have a go at the other Roman pages in turn, and I'll report progress. The problem is, as others already know so well, it's difficult to find enough reliable source material online. Andrew Dalby13:46, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For Codnor Castle, have a look at fi:Codnorin linna. I linked the English Heritage report to en-wiki too (it is most professional source), but in the fi-version there are more links. --Tappinen (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am impressed to see that we have "translations" that are better than the original. I know some people will say that the non -English articles will not get updated when the English one improves. Here we see that the exact opposite can happen. Brilliant. Victuallers (talk) 16:19, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have a picture but I cannot prove the free license as I only have an email from the museum and the systems requires more than this Victuallers (talk) 20:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
William Hunt Painter's (dried) plant collection is in the museum, William Billingsley is the "star" artist of the porcelain collection. Victuallers (talk) 20:20, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think Lvova ment that according to rules each page should have a blue link to museum, but these have it only in the template/infobox. To the William Hunt Painter article you could add "Hunt Painter donated his herbarium to the University College of Wales in Aberystwyth, but there are also significant specimen plants at Kew and Oxford, in the Department of Botany at Aberdeen, the Natural History Museum in London, Birmingham University, the National Botanic Garden at Dublin, the Derby Museum and Art Gallery, Glasgow University, the Hancock Museum at Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Kew, Manchester Museum, Cardiff and Oxford.<ref>[http://stirchleychurchandrectorysalop.jimdo.com/the-rectors-of-st-james/william-hunt-painter-botanist/ William Hunt Painter, Botanist] Stirchley Church and the Rectory</ref> Regards, --Tappinen (talk) 18:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for the detail answer :) I hope that information about other objects and people will be found too. Lvova Anastasiya (talk)
I copied the text to the Hunt Painter article, too, and added a sentence tp Daniel Coke. Fanfwah did the same to Billingsley. But for the Roman Roads I find no references linking them to the Museums. I guess there are some items in the museum which have been found along the roads - but I can't find information of them online. --Tappinen (talk) 03:54, 15 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to sound greedy but I am quite proud of the fact, that one of my translations had been selected for the Russian DYK. Do you think this and any other DYK article deserves a medal a couple of extra points?--Victoria (talk) 14:11, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't sound greedy! You're right, we didn't think of this in advance. It's really important for publicity. What I've done right now is to start a page (see the new tab above) in which "Did you knows" can be listed. Maybe there are others too? I know Victuallers is amazingly skilful at getting "Did you knows" on en:wiki.
I missed it :-( Does anyone have a picture? or can they recreate it? If so then please paste here!! I'm talking about Derby's projects at Wikimania and that would be one hell of a picture Victuallers (talk) 06:57, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Because George Sorocold has insufficient inline citations, I googled, and found this text in Bygone Derbyshire. It is identical with the wikipedia articel; which one is a copy ? In any case I think "It was very nearly the death of him. " is not really encyclopedic language. --Tappinen (talk) 15:43, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Now I have found a few other online sources (see fi:George Sorocold if interested). I addition this would have a picture of his London Bridge waterworks from 1729, copyright should be expired. Is there anyone around who could copy it to commons ? (I'm not sure of all necessary templates.) Thanks, --Tappinen (talk) 05:21, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Photo requests
For William Billingsley, would be nice to get a photo of his roses (eg. the plate in Revolutionar players site, see "External links". (did we have elsewhere a place for image requests ?) --Tappinen (talk) 20:11, 21 June 2011 (UTC) We do - but you will find a picture of the Prentice Plate and some supporting pictures Victuallers (talk) 16:08, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It was difficult to find any sources for Derby Sketching Club in the web, so could anyone with access to books check two details:
en-wiki article says club meets five times a week, website just says (in History) that there are meetings every Friday night. Elsewhere they tell Portrait group meets on Tuesdays and Life model on Friday mornings.
