Talk:Vitamin K

Too much vitamin k ?

This is not really a problem. Vitamin K is a cofactor - excess levels do not increase thrombosis risk as such. Only too little (such as in malabsorption of breastfeeding babies) may lead to a coagulopathy. JFW | T@lk 07:53, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Someone who understands the issues might want to add something on the issue of interferance with warfarin . See issues with Anlene milk powder[1]

Better link[2]. This is completely reasonable, although I think using vitamin K for bone health is unproven bunk. JFW | T@lk 14:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Why? Lots of recent clinical data support it. Vitamin K, and particularly K2, seems to move calcium into the bones. 1,25D3 only moves it into the bloodstream. K2 helps with both CHD and osteoporosis. It exerts certain effects that K1 does not in this area, and is not inhibited by salicylates. --Ryan Wise (talk) 22:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Pubmed search. JFW | T@lk 14:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't have the journal references handy, but I ran into one article which did a trial of *K1* supplementation and did not find a correlation with bone density. But another (more recent) article found was a trial of K2 supplementation did affect bone density. There is also an association found between bone density and/or osteoporosis rates (forget which), and vitamin K level, although which way that correlation goes, and why, wasn't clear to the researchers as I recall from the article. It's been a while since I looked into the vitamin K lit (pulling up stuff for autism research..)

As a patient taking Marcomar (the Swiss equivalent of Warfarin), I suggest being careful about advice in this area. All the doctors I have seen have stressed to NOT CHANGE YOUR NORMAL DIET. They did suggest that eating a large amount (plate full) of cabbage or brussel sprouts wouldn't be clever, but, eating these high % foods shouldn't be a problem in 'normal' portions. The reason for this seems to be the fact that these Anticoagulant drugs act very slowly meaning it is really difficult to establish the correct dose. If you couple the dosage issue with a situation where the patient also changes diet in a significant way, then you have a danger that the blood thins too much or more than expected leading to a danager of bleeding and haemorages. Therefore, my doctors are saying don't change your diet, adjust the drug dose to fit with your normal eating habits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.246.4.6 (talk) 09:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You may want to read this article in regards to k2 and warfarin. [3] Of note, it's slowly emerging that since salicylates work by inhibiting K1 that they actually lead to more heart attacks down the line. --Ryan Wise (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2009 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiserd911 (talk • contribs) 22:19, 3 May 2009

Agree. Olbenberg notes this too in his article on vitamin K notes that a small supplemtary dose of vitamin K seems to stabilize the K cycle against disruptions caused by mutations which affect warfarin activity.

Why "K"

All the othervitamins go in alphabetical order: A, B, C, D, E, why "Vitamin K"? Why not vitamin F? --Munchkinguy 19:00, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Because the scientist who discovered this antihaemorrhagic vitamin in 1935 was Danish, and called it Koagulation (coagulation) vitamin. JFW | T@lk 22:40, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also the naming of different B vitamins and other substances had originally been named F,G,H,I e.t.c when they were first discovered but through the years they either adopted another name or have been removed from the vitamin group in general so there are empty positions, the same holds true for "missing" numbers in the B complex. 89.133.150.230 (talk) 20:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Dangers?

Italic text Hey. =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.75.7 (talk) 16:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Physiology of vitamin K

This free article outlines the pleiotropic roles of vitamin K. Worth including. JFW | T@lk 21:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Now it's used once in Physiology (ref name=Berkner) but probably deserves more use, eg. re VKD proteins & atherosclerosis specifically. Rod57 (talk) 10:48, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Slang

I've taken the liberty of revamping the slang section about "vitamin K" as slang for ketamine; the term is in common use and important. The old version stated that ketamine was Schedule I. This is bunk and smacks of poor research at best and fearmongering at worst. I've also decided to remove the term "powerful"-- ketamine may or many not be powerful (whatever a "powerful" drug is), but its potency and efficacy are better addressed in the ketamine article and its references. I also explicitly referred to it as a dissociative anesthetic and linked it as such.

I think the slang section is about as long as it ever needs to be (unless new important usages pop up), since this article should really be about napthoquinones. Is this section a good solution, or should there be a disambiguation page? Kajerm 04:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Are Vitamin K and ketamine the same thing?

Are vitamin K and ketamine the same thing? I have looked on websites and they tell me they are different however other websites say they are the same. Which is true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.110.252.29 (talk) 10:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

No. This question is addressed in the article at the top in the comment about disambiguation with ketamine. --EricE 18:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Pictures are inconsistent

The ball and stick pictures do not currently match their respective molecular diagrams. For starters, the diagrams show oxygens double-bonded to carbon, outside the ring. The ball and stick figures show the oxygen as being part of the ring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.129.47 (talk) 06:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Origin of "Vitamin K"

Vitamin K is named K for the Danish, not German, word koagulation (coagulation). This is mentioned in all the biochemistry books (hereunder Stryer: Bochemistry, Voet&Voet, Biochemistry), that deals with vitamin K. Moreover, I am Danish, as the discoverer of vitamin K is, and has heard the story from my biochemistry teachers at different lectures at the university (University of Southern Denmark). Therefore, please do not change the origin of the word back to German again. it is simply not true! PernilleGodiva —Preceding unsigned comment added by PernilleGodiva (talk • contribs) 11:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the article: "The new vitamin received the letter K because the initial discoveries were reported in a German journal, in which it was designated as Koagulationsvitamin."

Do you disagree with this statement? --Slashme (talk) 14:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Another reference is Brody, Tom (1999). Nutritional biochemistry. Boston: Academic Press. ISBN 0-12-134836-9. which says it's from German --Slashme (talk) 14:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And also the Merck Index of Chemicals and Drugs, citing some references:

The designation K is derived from the German "Koagulationsvitamin": Dam, Biochem. Z. 215, 475 (1929); 220, 158 (1930); Nature 135, 652 (1935).

--Slashme (talk) 14:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Fine with me :-)PernilleGodiva (talk) 09:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I will give you, that he published in a German paper. But the vitamin has not been named in German, it just fits snuggly with the spelling being alike on both languages! Therefore, the naming was made in Danish (please look at the alikeness of the words), but published in German, and therefore for the sake of being readable written like that.

It may be that the name was conceived in Danish, but we have to work with published sources. --Slashme (talk) 05:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, here's one from the horse's mouth, so to speak. "It is proposed to term this factor vitamin K (Koagulations-Vitamin in German and the Scandinavian languages)." from CLIV. THE ANTIHAEMORRHAGIC VITAMIN OF THE CHICK. BY HENRIK DAM. From the Biochemical Institute, University of Copenhagen. (Received April 8th, 1935.) so maybe we should indeed change the text to read "German and Danish"? --Slashme (talk) 06:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sources (of vitamin K)

Just chicken egg yolks? Really? That seems unusually specific. Do we mean all bird eggs or really just chickens? 172.142.84.245 (talk) 04:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I see banana's in the list of main sources, but at 0.5 micrograms per 100 grams, I dispute whether bananas can really be considered a true 'main source' of Vitamin K. I suspect there is a confusion here between the Vitamin K and the mineral Potassium (Chemical symbol K). As a non expert, I have not edited out bananas, but, at least added a link to the banana page that was missing that shows that Vitamin K is not listed as a significant nutrient within the fruit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.246.4.6 (talk) 09:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

topical vitamin k

may be worth having a section in the article on topical use of vitamin k —Preceding unsigned comment added by EBMdoc (talk • contribs) 14:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC) Green leafy vegetables e.g. spinach, swiss chard, lettuce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.75.7 (talk) 16:36, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Clarity please? "dark circles"

What on earth are dark circles??! Please elaborate?Jkjambsj (talk) 17:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC) "Fifty-seven adults with dark circles participated in this 8-week study" being, 57 members of the freemasons, the illuminati, the Vatican and similar dark circles.Jkjambsj (talk) 17:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV Question: Vitamin K as a Beauty Product

In the Vitamin K as a Beauty Product section, the results of the study referenced are described "the results, while not a slam-dunk, weren't exactly discouraging either". This seems to be breaking NPOV and offers no concrete information as to what the results of the study really were. 24.185.71.65 (talk) 14:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

You're right; I've removed that phrase. Mindmatrix 15:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Vitamin K as a Beauty Product

I have added the importance-sect tag to "Vitamin K as a Beauty Product". Considering one study with ambiguous results, I do not feel this worthy of inclusion. Notably, considering the psychological aspects of testing, the current text do not imply anything interesting. (That this applies to the source too, is obviously not guaranteed.) 88.77.151.79 (talk) 09:47, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

needs section re vitamin-D toxicity or inappropriate vascular mineralization

emerging area but reasonably notable by now- calcification in cvd or ckd hgas only recntly been noted to be of clinical rtelevance. Krueger, T; Ketteler, M; Schurgers, LJ; Floege, J (Jul-2009). "Vitamin K deficiency in CKD patients: a modifiable risk factor for vascular calcification?". Kidney international. 76 (1): 18–22. doi:10.1038/ki.2009.126. PMC 10.1038/ki.2009.126. PMID 19387474. {{cite journal}}: Check |pmc= value (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

Krueger, T; Schurgers, L; Brandenburg, V (Feb-2009). "Coagulation meets calcification: the vitamin K system". The International journal of artificial organs. 32 (2): 67–74. PMID 19363777. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

Spasovski, GB (2007). "Bone health and vascular calcification relationships in chronic kidney disease". International urology and nephrology. 39 (4): 1209–16. doi:10.1007/s11255-007-9276-9. PMC 10.1007/s11255-007-9276-9. PMID 17899431. {{cite journal}}: Check |pmc= value (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

Hruska, KA; Mathew, S; Lund, R. "Renal osteodystrophy, phosphate homeostasis, and vascular calcification". Seminars in dialysis. 20 (4): 309–15. doi:10.1111/j.1525-139X.2007.00300.x. PMC 10.1111/j.1525-139X.2007.00300.x. PMID 17635820. {{cite journal}}: Check |pmc= value (help)

Proudfoot, D (Oct-2006). "Molecular mechanisms mediating vascular calcification: role of matrix Gla protein". Nephrology (Carlton, Vic.). 11 (5): 455–61. doi:10.1111/j.1440-1797.2006.00660.x. PMC 10.1111/j.1440-1797.2006.00660.x. PMID 17014561. {{cite journal}}: Check |pmc= value (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

Younes, NA; Mahafzah, W; Ailabouni, W; Al-Mansour, M; Hamzah, Y; Sroujieh, AS (May-2006). "The spectrum of bone disease in Jordanian hemodialysis patients". Saudi medical journal. 27 (5): 667–71. PMID 16680258. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

de Francisco, AL (Dec-2004). "Secondary hyperparathyroidism: review of the disease and its treatment". Clinical therapeutics. 26 (12): 1976–93. doi:10.1016/j.clinthera.2004.12.011. PMC 10.1016/j.clinthera.2004.12.011. PMID 15823762. {{cite journal}}: Check |pmc= value (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

Okada, N (May-2004). "[K/DOQI clinical practice guidelines for management of renal osteodystrophy in predialysis patients]". Clinical calcium. 14 (5): 698–706. doi:CliCa0405698706. PMC CliCa0405698706. PMID 15577030. {{cite journal}}: Check |doi= value (help); Check |pmc= value (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)

Nerdseeksblonde (talk) 15:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

K2 deficiency

"Vitamin K2 (menaquinone, menatetrenone) is normally produced by bacteria in the large intestine,[2] and dietary deficiency is extremely rare unless the intestines are heavily damaged, are unable to absorb the molecule, or are subject to decreased production by normal flora, as seen in broad spectrum antibiotic use[3]."

This is ungrounded information. I checked both sources (2) and (3) and there are no such conclusions there. Please add relevant publication backing this claim.

--79.186.82.165 (talk) 13:16, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree there is little evidence to support intestinal flora as source of vitamin K in humans and even less so in breastfeeding infants who's flora will digsest vitamin k but doesn't produce K this was originally noted by H Dam, and is in some other subsequent studies. There is evidence that from vitamin k 1 it is converted in the body to K2 , radioactive labeled material eaten.  This whole subject experienced an explosion of research about 10 or so years ago, having to with preventing or dealing with diseases of the aging baby boomers.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.26.122 (talk) 08:13, 28 December 2010 (UTC) 

Do we need both K1 and K2

Article does not clarify if we need both K1 and K2 or any of K3, K4, K5. The EPIC-Heidelburg study suggests that K1 does not fully substitute for K2. Many places in the article just refer to vitamin K without clarifying if they mean K1 or K2 or some typical mixture of the two. Rod57 (talk) 19:14, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

New study on tranexamic acid

I recently saw a headline that an antifibrolytic agent, tranexamic acid, was found to be a life-saving intervention against bleeding and death from accidents.[4][5] Though perhaps the research hasn't yet been done, I thought I should just toss out the question of whether vitamin K injection has been tested for trauma in non-deficient people other than childbirth or osteoporotic bone fracture. Is vitamin K a non-prescription alternative to tranexamic acid for purposes of first aid?

The Lancet article doesn't discuss vitamin K, but to me something seems very suspicious. A traumatic accident should be the acid test in the evolution of clotting. If an injection of a drug to fool with the regulation of clotting at the last moment could save tens of thousands of lives, doesn't that imply that the general population is a little short on some natural nutrient, perhaps that of vitamin K? Wnt (talk) 17:38, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Is this accurate?

"Treatment usually consists of repeated intravenous doses of vitamin K, followed by doses in pill form for a period of at least two weeks, though possibly up to 2 months, afterwards (in the case of the more potent 4-hydoxycoumarins used as rodenticides). If caught early, prognosis is good, even when great amounts of the drug or poison are ingested."

Really? I don't know anything about human medicine, but in animals (pets that accidentally ingest rodenticides) we might give one subcutaneous injection of Vit K1 and then oral therapy for however long is needed based on the exact rodenticide. I've never heard of Vit K1 being administered IV??? In fact, I have heard of adverse reactions occuring from a SQ injection....let alone an IV injection. Can anyone clarify this point? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.100.172 (talk) 11:23, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Article treatment of MK4 vs MK7

While the article does note that MK7 is helpful with arterial calcification, there are a number of places in the article where MK4 is noted as having beneficial effects, as if to the exclusion of other forms of K2 such as MK7. I realize that there are more citations in the literature regarding MK4 but should this be corrected? It seems like both MK4 and MK7 have beneficial effects (though different dosages of each are tolerated) and this isn't uniformly presented in the article. Also, there are some suggestions that K2 improves bone strength disproportionate to improvements in bone mineral density. While many drugs have better efficacy in promoting BMD K2 is comparable to superior in terms of preventing fractures. I don't have authoritative cites for this on hand, but given that structure and not just density is a significant factor, perhaps this is worth noting? --76.170.19.29 (talk) 03:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)