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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 128.59.169.46 (talk) at 15:18, 20 October 2011 (→‎Any pertinent papers to be added or deleted?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Please read this talk page discussion before making substantial changes.


Early mature Quasar Contradicts the big bang theory

Wikipedia should allow published alternative explanations for the redshift, without expanding space. The big bang theory is contradicted by observations. see link. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/331980/title/Most_distant_quasar_raises_questions 71.98.132.136 (talk) 14:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The link does not say that the big bang theory is contradicted by this observation. Nor does this link have any relevance whatsoever for tired light theories. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 09:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The article clearly contradicts the big bang, by presenting a Quasar older than the big bang. 71.98.135.144 (talk) 12:06, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request

Too bad Wikipedia censors published articles

This is archived because the person posting it is banned. See relevant policy at WP:BAN
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


Heaven forbid that the astronomy students at Columbia University could discover those five articles that refute the big bang theory. The professors at Columbia would not like that now would they ? Better be sure the five articles never get into Wikipedia anywhere. 12.184.176.57 (talk) 21:32, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Add a new section 'Recently Proposed Redshift Models'

This is archived because the person posting it is banned. See relevant policy at WP:BAN
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


A new section should be added to the article under the title 'Recently Proposed Redshift Models' where these five referenced articles should be cited, the authors being all Ph.D.'s in Physics:

1) Mamas, D.L.; http://link.aip.org/link/?PHESEM/23/326/1

2) Zaninetti, L.; http://link.aip.org/link/?PHESEM/23/298/1

3) Masreliez C. J.; Scale Expanding Cosmos Theory I – An Introduction, Apeiron April (2004)

4) Masreliez C. Johan (2005), pretitle=print pages 13-20 "A Cosmological Explanation to the Pioneer Anomaly", Astrophysics & Space Science 299, (1): 83-108, doi:10.1007/s10509-005-4321-6, http://www.estfound.org/downloads/pioneer_paper.pdf pretitle=print pages 13-20

5) Masreliez C. Johan (1999), "The Scale Expanding Cosmos", Astrophysics and Space Science 266 (3): 399-400, doi:10.1023/A:1002050702708

This will add some neutral balance to the article. 71.98.133.122 (talk) 03:42, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, the banned editor is User:Licorne. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:36, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If so, it is not the only banned editor! It should be noted that the initiating one, who has made substantial contributions to the text under several IPs is the now blocked and identified user 128.59.169.46 (talk) also using 140.252.83.232 (talk) and 140.252.83.241 (talk). The least this calls for is adding the new section requested,'Recently Proposed Redshift Models' and most likely also other revisions. 77.219.181.190 (talk) 14:17, 28 August 2011 (UTC) /User:Mariguld[reply]
Are you evading your block? --Nuujinn (talk) 15:17, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Since when does wikipedia not accept pertinent published references ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.133.5 (talk) 18:45, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SCIRS. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 09:38, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Astrophysics and Space Science is published under Springer, and Physics Essays is published under the AIP. Wikipedia simply refuses any articles that contradict the big bang religion. 71.98.135.144 (talk) 12:04, 30 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nuujinn and other administrators should be aware of pertinent research on the IP-issue at stake and take neccessary steps instead of harassing an innocent victim. 77.219.176.32 (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The last sentence in the article says tired light proposals are "all but absent" from the scientific literature, which is admitting there do exist tired light proposals. The five sources above should therefore be cited as examples of published tired light proposals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.129.251 (talk) 17:07, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They aren't in good enough journals. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You mean they aren't in big bang journals. 71.98.129.61 (talk) 03:11, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any pertinent papers to be added or deleted?

I have not looked at this article for a long time, but I notice traces of debates with unreasonable (not in line with the rules) requests to insert or remove references to articles, and new editors. I guess that this is such a small topic that most relevant papers (or one per author) can be mentioned. To those who were involved recently, are there any notable papers about "tired light" concepts that are not referred to, or, inversely, unnoticed papers that are still referred to? Harald88 (talk) 13:55, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just because few people read it doesn't mean it is okay to turn it into a rubbish dump of crankery. There's a couple by Masreliez which have been published which use the words 'tired light' but describes a metric expansion of space as far as I can see except they phrase it to say the space doesn't expand - things in it shrink, and uses it to explain the Pioneer anomaly which has been pretty much fully explained anyway. Dmcq (talk) 07:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Turning it into a rubbish dump or into a propaganda piece are both forbidden, for the same reason. So thanks, I'll take a look. Harald88 (talk) 12:31, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I now had a quick look at those papers, and one of them is cited by someone else. I don't think that that warrants a discussion of his ideas. Nevertheless, I recall that there were other alternative hypothesis that also were called tired light. Together that bunch of alternatives is just notable. So, it will be appropriate to add a short section, for example "Alternative tired light hypotheses" in which passing mention is made of those attempts that so far had little impact. Harald88 (talk) 20:21, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please workshop it in talk if you think you can assemble something that will pass the muster. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Harald, there should be a short section on published alternative models. The article already says in the very last sentence that some published alternative models do exist, so show them in a section. Why should we hide them? 71.98.129.155 (talk) 17:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK I'll try but not sure if I can find the time in the coming two weeks...
But I now notice in the last section "fringe researchers" - what the hell are that?? I work in research and it's not a term used by scientists, as it sounds just like racist or name-calling. That's inappropriate for an encyclopedia.
PS. I now checked who one of those "fringe scientists" was: a teacher of the Astrophysics Department of the School of Physics, University of Sydney! So it's not merely name-calling, but even misleading. The POV of the last section is put on in such a thick layer that it just drips off. Harald88 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See fringe science. I'm afraid I get the impression some of the stuff in areas related to here may by a branch of creationists who have a thing against the theory of Relativity because they think it inspires moral relativism, that would be pseudoscience. We should just go by the peer reviews so the problem is mostly not our business though of course if it does seem nutty we should check it really is a good source. Dmcq (talk) 11:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think Harald88 has a point. We use the terms fringe science in our discussions, and I think it's a appropriate here, but barring a reliable source using the same term, I think it best we avoid using the term in the article. I've recast the last paragraph, please double check it to make sure I haven't introduced errors. I think that last clause should be deleted unless we a source for it, so I tagged it. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:56, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They seem very reasonable. No need to stick in a fringe qualifier unnecessarily. Saying something is fringe really needs a citation saying something like that. Dmcq (talk) 11:58, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's better and much more encyclopedic. However, I think that it's still not really good, but as talk about that section is a slightly different topic I started with a new header. Harald88 (talk) 12:26, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tired light is absolutely fringe science at this point, and not considered credible by any but a tiny number of physicists and astronomers. Here's a citation from ScienceNOW in 2001 to that effect: 

Measurements of the cosmic microwave background put the theory 
firmly on the fringe of physics 30 years ago; still, scientists 
sought more direct proofs of the expansion of the cosmos.

There's also a nice quote from Ned Wright at the end of the article. I've reverted the recent changes, but not added the article, as I'm not sure where best to work it in. - Parejkoj (talk) 18:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good find, that's exactly the kind of secondary source we need. I'll see about working it in later once I've had a chance to read the article, if you don't beat me to it. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fantastic. I added the quote to the end of the article in place of the nebulous "all but absent" line. 128.59.169.46 (talk) 15:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading, apparently erroneous last section

I checked up on the last referenced claim of the last section. To my astonishment I found a follow-up article by the same author (as it seems, with an improved theory) in a high quality physics journal, that itself was again referenced (according to Web Of Knowledge) in 8 articles of which I copy some titles that in turn have been cited hereunder. Evidently the claim of that section is not supported by the facts. Harald88 (talk) 12:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1. Title: The cosmic age crisis and the Hubble constant in a non-expanding universe

Author(s): Sorrell Wilfred H. Source: ASTROPHYSICS AND SPACE SCIENCE Volume: 317 Issue: 1-2 Pages: 45-58 DOI: 10.1007/s10509-008-9853-0 Published: SEP 2008 Times Cited: 3 (from All Databases)

3. Title: Curvature pressure in a cosmology with a tired-light redshift

Author(s): Crawford DF Source: AUSTRALIAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICS Volume: 52 Issue: 4 Pages: 753-777 Published: 1999 Times Cited: 2 (from All Databases)

4. Title: THE QUASAR DISTRIBUTION IN A STATIC UNIVERSE

Author(s): CRAWFORD DF Source: ASTROPHYSICAL JOURNAL Volume: 441 Issue: 2 Pages: 488-493 DOI: 10.1086/175375 Part: Part 1 Published: MAR 10 1995 Times Cited: 4 (from All Databases)

6. Title: A STATIC STABLE UNIVERSE

Author(s): CRAWFORD DF Source: ASTROPHYSICAL JOURNAL Volume: 410 Issue: 2 Pages: 488-492 DOI: 10.1086/172765 Part: Part 1 Published: JUN 20 1993 Times Cited: 6 (from All Databases)

7. Title: A NEW GRAVITATIONAL INTERACTION OF COSMOLOGICAL IMPORTANCE

Author(s): CRAWFORD DF Source: ASTROPHYSICAL JOURNAL Volume: 377 Issue: 1 Pages: 1-6 DOI: 10.1086/170330 Part: Part 1 Published: AUG 10 1991 Times Cited: 6 (from All Databases)

Sorry, which paper exactly are you referring to and which claim exactly are you saying is refuted? Dmcq (talk) 16:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Last Section leaves one hanging

The last section ends by saying tired light models are all but absent from the literature, which leaves one asking for some references to those models, at the very least. 71.98.128.187 (talk) 02:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well that looks like what Harald88 is fixing up with something not quite so old, see just above. Can't say I feel myself panting with excitement when I read a statement like that but to each their own. :) Dmcq (talk) 10:37, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it appears that there is activity in the area, but that it has died down to a handful of researchers. I think that is to be expected, science is not so uniform as one sometimes assumes. I found this somewhat interesting in tone. --Nuujinn (talk) 10:45, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And of course we have an article on Otto Rössler. Interesting in tone - that's a good one! Thanks ;-) Dmcq (talk) 11:30, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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