Wikipedia talk:Be bold

Archive 1

Be timid!

And I'm only half joking.

I understand the thought behind this guideline. In an ideal world, no, even in a pretty good world, it would be wonderful advice for all. It's excellent advice for a great number of people -- perhaps even myself, though to claim this would be arrogant in view of my gut feeling that it's the wrong advice to hand out too eagerly.

Glasgow, which I believe was once a pretty good article, is now a mess. It's not as bad as it might be partly because it was pretty good, and partly because a number of people have been busily patching up after moderately bold attempts to "improve" it by at least one well-intentioned but underprepared person. I'm only glad that he's not bolder. True, he hasn't been bold in the sense of refactoring the whole thing, but he's been bold in saying what he, as a Glaswegian (I think), knows to be true.

I didn't write this to knock the guy. He's just one case among many. In principle, yes, one could say that by pointing out that boldness must go hand in hand with NPoV, sourcing, etc., one avoids these risks. In practice, though, a significant number of people may read and digest what they want to, and no more; this can lead to a great amount of time being wasted by others.

I don't suggest that this guideline should be scrapped. But I do suggest that people should think thrice before urging it on a brand new editor. It does not belong in a welcome message. -- Hoary 11:07, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

Well, it does say "be bold but not reckless". What it should really say is "be bold, but stop being bold if everyone disagrees with you." it's a matter of not being afraid of screwing up the page because it can always be reverted. It's not a matter of pushing your viewpoint on everyone. - Omegatron 13:56, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but what I'd like is "Stop, think, consider; remember that (i) this is an encyclopedia, not your soapbox even for what you may think is self-evident, and (ii) even what you're sure of could be wrong. Make few, tiny changes of which you are as confident as possible. Then make slightly more changes, or slightly bigger ones. Work only very slowly toward boldness." But that would be silly, really. After all, the people whose work suggests that they need such advice probably wouldn't read it. Much simpler: just don't go out of your way to urge people to be bold. -- Hoary 14:51, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

I actually thought "but don't be reckless" should have covered this. Not listening to other viewpoints and ignoring other editors' edits is a form of recklessness. This advice helps most newcomers out there, I was a newbie once myself, started back half a year ago was still rather "timid".

For the Glaswegian editor, try sitting down with him, explain the problem of his edits and find a way to fix and go around with the article would be good. Learning and understanding from mistakes would enable him to come out as a better editor. - Mailer Diablo 20:37, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, yes, all true . . . but oh so time-consuming. I'll attempt to muster the necessary courage for doing some more thinking about a "Be timid!" campaign -- which, of course, I would start only very timidly, if at all. -- Hoary 01:22, 2005 May 26 (UTC)

(Moved from guideline page) Objection to "Be Bold"

I would like to register an objection to the promotion of this "Be Bold" policy as it stands. In general it's a worthy sentiment, but I believe it has more of a negative than a positive influence over disputes that involve Wikipedia's best articles. These articles, most but not all of which are enshrined as "Featured Articles", are often the result of long and careful collaboration, after which they have arrived at a high level of prose quality, detail, balance and optimal thematic progression. More and more we see editors, often new editors who tend to overestimate their current research and writing skills, leaping into Featured Articles (and other high quality pieces) and carrying out major overhauls. When challenged, their most frequent response is something like "I thought we were supposed to be bold!". And typically they go on to resist all efforts to scale back their overhauls, and not infrequently they are defended by Admins who perhaps have not given enough thought to the ramifications here. First, we have a serious downgrading of article quality. Second, and maybe as important, we have many topnotch editors who see their careful, recognized work thus scrambled and who then scale back their participation or leave the project altogether. Over time this will tend to make the pool of editors topheavy with bold but mediocre contributors, while the mature talents have moved on to less frustrating pastures. I implore Wikipedia Administrators and leading editors to take this problem seriously and to propose steps to counteract it. At a minimum, there should be forceful language on this page regarding major overhauls of Featured Articles. Discussion on Talk pages before such overhauls should be policy, and where there is a dispute there should be a presumption in favor of reversion. Other possibilities: an interstitial page that appears whenever the Save button is hit on a FA and the edit is anything other than an addition, with language urging conservatism in changes to FA; template language on FA Talk pages containing a specific caveat to "Be Bold" for FA pages, and similar... Perhaps this comment should have been made on the Talk page of this guideline page, but I opted to place it here because I believe the problem is quite pressing. I have no objection to moving this to Talk, but I would like to see proposed changes to this page straight off. JDG 21:56, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just point them to the Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages#...but don't be reckless! section. Also, follow the same guideline when editing this page. :-) - Omegatron 15:21, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no one cares if you relegate that part to the lower parts of the article. The best way is to change article title to Be Bold (...not Reckless) in updating pages. Mandel 13:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Boldly update, where noman has updated before! --Aperculum 18:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

yoyo mo fos we need way more PORNO PORNO

Please, some assistance with this page.

Whose version should stand? The one Monicasdude keeps reverting to or the one I keep reverting to? I've asked for assistance at Wikipedia:Third_opinion and Wikipedia:AMA_Requests_for_Assistance, to no avail... Hoary, I would expect you to support mine. Omegatron would likely support Mdude's. Anybody else? Please don't let this fall back to a one-on-one revert war. JDG 19:24, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I've never heard of either of you before until this war showed up on my watchlist. If you want to change a guideline that's been unchanged for a year, you need to get a consensus on the talk page first. Revert warring, especially a guideline, extra especially when changing it to a version that supports your position in another dispute, will get you nowhere.

Show respect for Guidelines, as they already carry the weight of consensus and almost always embody careful, finely tuned writing. - Omegatron 20:17, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

This, on my end anyway, is most emphatically not about the Dylan article. It is about respect for Featured Articles and finding ways to moderate major, undiscussed changes to them. Notwithstanding Mdude's assertions to the contrary, I have been advocating this long before the Dylan controversy. In any event, I will take your musings as 1 vote for Mdude's version. JDG 21:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Count them as one vote against your behavior (and apparent conspiracy theory attitude). I have no affiliation with either person's version.

So you're saying that users should not be bold when editing featured articles? Why not? I don't see how it applies any less or more to them. - Omegatron 22:28, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)

No, you apparently don't see why. Let's try a trite analogy, Otron. Let's travel back many years and posit a gradeschool age Otron happily playing on the beach. Nearby, a gradeschool age Mdude, unacquainted with young master Otron, runs in and out of the surf. Just a few minutes back, young Mdude had been weeping from the effects of parental discipline: he had been running up the shoreline de-implanting people's sun umbrellas and flinging them into the tide. When the lifeguards returned him to his parents he yelled "But the umbrellas looked so pretty in the water! It's, it's a better ocean!" His punishment was to sit still on a beach chair for five minutes. At three minutes his mother was so moved, she gave him a snow cone to regale the remaining two minutes. It was about then that young Otron, a future engineer, began his sand castle. A minute later young Mdude was back zig-zagging along the surf, eventually zagging into the immediate vicinity of Otron. At this point Otron hadn't completed even one round tower. This was fortunate because at that moment Mdude said to himself "I will help him!". Help, to Mdude, meant he would demolish the existing structure, then sit beside Otron and construct the main castle while overseeing Otron's work on a few outbuildings. To Mdude, this was self-evidently the way it was to be done if a superior sand castle were to have any hope of rising. So Mdude halted next to Otron, said "Hi!", and drew back his foot to throw it through the one nascent sand tower. Otron, a quick boy, thought about seizing Mdude's ankle but said to himself "Achhh, I've hardly done anything yet. Why risk a fight over this?" (Otron felt confident he would prevail in such a contest, but maybe not without some contact, and he was prone to long nosebleeds). So flew Mdude's foot... Now fast rewind to the end of Mdude's ocean-improvement punishment. He's lapping up the last of his snow cone. But this time Otron had been at work for close to two hours already on his sand castle, nay, sand village. The castle was at the center, its tallest turret closer to the sun than Otron could jump. Eighteen windows, elongated arches with ledges, graced this turret alone. I could go on. The detail was stunning. It was a vista unto itself. It seemed a shame no sand people could be animated there, it was such a beautifully made place to live, complete with reflecting pools and a zoo with elephants and giraffes. Now up steps Mdude. He says "Hi!" and draws back his foot. Otron barely thinks about seizing the ankle before he does!

Omegatron: WHY? JDG 06:33, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've read this three times and I still don't know what the hell you're talking about.

You should be bold in editing articles whether in the main namespace or the Wikipedia: namespace, including guidelines and featured articles, but not reckless. If someone reverts your changes you need to discuss it with them on the talk page and get a consensus going instead of revert warring. Please read Be bold in updating pages (especially ...but don't be reckless!), and Three-revert rule.

(How did you know I'm prone to nosebleeds?) - Omegatron 23:04, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Jeeeeesh. Nevermind. JDG 01:10, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Third Opinions

I removed the listing from Wikipedia:Third opinion because as I understand it, in the dispute between JDG and Monicasdude, a third opinion has already been given on this page. Once a third opinion is given, the listing should be removed, as per Wikipedia:Third opinion. JYolkowski gave his above, as has Omegatron. If you want another third opinion, you can have mine. I don't think a guidleine page should be edited to make a point in a dispute. If you seek to protect featured articles from the being bold guideline then you should make a proposal and list it on RFC and the village pump. I will now remove this listing from third opinion's once again, as I have given a third opinion.

If you want to amend the content of Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages, then we can put together a proposal and get it listed and build consensus.

JDG, is this a fair summary of what you would like to have added to the page?

Featured Articles are articles which have been edited to such an extent that the wikipedia community believe they are of the highest standard. Therefore major edits to these pages should be discussed on the featured article's talk page before being enacted. However, this should not stop you correcting minor mistakes. Steve block 09:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Steve, I did not consider the statements by JYolkowski and Omegatron to be "third opinions" as such, because they centered on a procedural point (whether my changes to the guideline were prudent while a relevant article dispute was ongoing), rather than centering on the merits of the changes themselves. Your own statement also centers on this procedural point (personally I see nothing wrong with editing a guideline during a dispute– that's when the issues are freshest in the mind and every edit to guidelines and policies is a form of advocacy anyway, does it matter so much how close in time they are to related disputes?).

So, you can consider these "third opinions" if you like, but it would be much more satisfying to see opinions on the merits... Also, your summary is a good one. What do you plan to do with it? JDG 09:36, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, if everyone else in the dispute feels it accurately sums up the position, it could be made into a proposal. Until that point, do not edit the Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages page. As for the third opinions, the point in dispute was whether you were right to edit Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages to prove a point, and third opinions weighed in on that point. No-one discussed the merits of your changes because you never gave them an opportunity. Please note, you should not discount or disregard third opinions that you have sought simply because they do not reflect your position. Steve block 10:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"As for the third opinions, the point in dispute was whether you were right to edit Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages to prove a point, and third opinions weighed in on that point. No-one discussed the merits of your changes because you never gave them an opportunity." How's that? I'm the one who called for a third opinion, and I asked the opinion to be on which version should stand, Mdude's or mine. I said nothing about whether I ought to have made any edit because I firmly believe there's nothing wrong with someone in a dispute working on relevant guidelines and poilicies. How did I not give an opportunity? That's the only opportunity I thought I was giving... Anyway, I won't edit Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages for the nonce and, yes, I would like to see your summation made into a proposal. Who takes what step from here? JDG 16:02, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• But Mdude's version is the original version, so you were basically asking if you were right in altering it, which is what you were given an opinion on. As for turning the summation into a proposal, you can propose it if you so wish. Steve block 18:24, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well it seems I have an objection to everything you say. Sorry 'bout that, but I can only say what I think. I don't believe my edit of Be Bold at all equates to the sorts of edits I am saying one should not make lightly and without discussion. For one thing, the Be Bold page isn't a FA. More importantly, my edit to it was very limited– basically an expansion of two sentences and a small additional sentence to another paragraph. This can in no way be called an "overhaul", and my main beef is with people who trundle in and perform all-at-once, undiscussed overhauls to FAs. Plus, I did discuss proposed changes on this Talk page first. So, no, I was not basically asking if I was right to alter Be Bold. It's totally separate from the issue of massive, undiscussed changes to FAs. I was asking if my alteration should stand on its own merits. The only person who had a problem with it for upwards of a week was Mdude, who, it should be clear by now, was pressing his own agenda at least as much as any I was pressing... Also, you had been saying "we" can put together a proposal, list it and build consensus. Now you seem to be backing off from involvement, saying I can go ahead if I wish. I would appreciate your help and support with it, if you still feel you can give it. JDG 18:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nevermind, I've just gone past that line. Good luck with the project. That inevitable handoff to the second generation has come. JDG 01:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think saying that large changes to sensitive articles isn't a great idea without research (same as it says deletions aren't) is ok. (Really that advice is good for such changes to any pages.) I don't think FAs need singling out in particular though. Dan100 (Talk) 16:25, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Suggested clarification

I would like to suggest the following clarification to the policy:

"Be Bold" is encouragement to be creative in finding new, untried solutions. It is not permission to persist with things that have already been tried and failed to gain consensus support.

I think this clarification might help minimize the abuse of the policy by people who want to claim that "Be bold" means they get to do anything they want. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:41, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

This is a page for newcomers. We don't need to hit them over the head. Dan100 (Talk) 11:26, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

This is a page intended for newcomers. There's a difference. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I support Antaeus's addition to the guideline. Please add it.JDG 06:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

But don't be reckless

I am considering adding a sentence or so more or less that the "Be bold" principle applies to articles, but less so to the Wikipedia namespace. Thoughts? Maurreen (talk) 19:46, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Guideline change re:FA

I have again restored the long-existing guideline. As user:Omegatron said not so long ago in an earlier round of this dispute, " If you want to change a guideline that's been unchanged for a year, you need to get a consensus on the talk page first. Revert warring, especially a guideline, extra especially when changing it to a version that supports your position in another dispute, will get you nowhere. Show respect for Guidelines, as they already carry the weight of consensus and almost always embody careful, finely tuned writing." Monicasdude 09:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I do not recognize you or Omegatron as authorities. My changes have merit to me. Those who dispute that merit may do so, and if the consensus is against me I will relent. You are simply another editor, not a one-person project-wide consensus, as you seem to see yourself as. Guidelines are not FA, and my simple one-sentence addition is not at all comparable to the radical all-at-once overhauls you try to equate it with. Also, your anon reversions are becoming too numerous to keep pawning off as "inadvertent". Instead, they are looking like intentional acts to subvert the 3RR. Any more anon reversions from this point will be considered grounds for new formal mediation. JDG 15:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

You propose this over and over; each time there's no consensus for your version. You keep bringing it back without complying with the specifically applicable guideline calling for prior talk activity and consensus before altering the page. Stop posting personal abuse, don't post threats, and comply with Wikipedia standards. Monicasdude 15:19, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

There is no greater consensus for "your" version. That a guideline sat idle for months is no consensus. Please cite the "specifically applicable guideline" you refer to. Stop pleading "personal abuse" as editors go about their business. I am tired of feeling embarrassed for you. Above all, engage on the merits. JDG 15:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

The specifically applicable guideline is at the top of the project page. You should comply with it. Monicasdude 15:44, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah,that is what you mean by "specifically applicable guideline": " Feel free to update the page as needed, but please use the discussion page to propose major changes." It does not apply to my small, decidedly non-major edit. Sorry. My edit doesn't even change or delete anything, it is a tiny addition that can in no sense be called a "major change". Now, please, engage on the merits or master your itchy-revert-finger. JDG 15:51, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Poll

We have a standoff. I believe the guideline should contain these sentences:

Finally, as a general rule, think twice or thrice before making major, undiscussed changes to Featured Articles, as they usually carry a significant weight of consensus and almost always embody careful, finely tuned writing. Additions to these articles can be made with the same level of care used for any article, but changes to existing text and deletions should not be made lightly nor without Talk page activity.

Monicasdude doesn't. Please sign with ~~~~.

For the sentences in question:

1. JDG 08:57, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
2. Breathstealer 09:14, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
3. --Coolcaesar 09:43, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
4. support a call to be careful with major undiscussed changes in FA's. --Irpen 05:34, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Against the sentences in question:

1. NightMonkey 09:36, September 4, 2005 (UTC): Just dropped in on Be Bold and saw that it was under dispute. I think that this proposed addition doesn't add any more clarity than the "...but don't be reckless!" section. The extant text seems explanatory enough. [NightMonkey, I ask you to reconsider. The "don't be reckless" section as it exists now limits itself to long articles on controversial topics. A top-notch Featured Article on a non-controversial topic should also be radically changed only after discussion, don't you think? My sentences address this. JDG 00:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)]
2. I can empathize with the sentiment, but the proposal is too strong for my taste. And by the way, that's actually two sentences. Maurreen (talk) [Maureen, I would be interested in the way you would express the sentiment for this guideline. Would you oblige? JDG 00:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)]
3. jguk 11:08, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
4. Not necessary. Such articles are very visible anyway. Radiant_>|< 14:43, September 4, 2005 (UTC) [Radiant, I fail to see what "visibility" has to do with it. We are talking about slowing down people who jump into FAs and radically change them, with no discussion. JDG 00:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)]
5. Monicasdude 16:27, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
6. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 17:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
7. While I agree with JDG's sentiment (that making big changes to a featured article is usually a bad thing to do), I agree with Nightmonkey that it's already covered by the "don't be reckless" part of this rule. →Raul654 00:04, September 6, 2005 (UTC) [But, Raul, as I note in my comment to Nightmonkey, the "don't be reckless" section specifically limits itself to controversial topics! JDG 00:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)]

   I've gone ahead and included in the reckless section a comment about featured articles. Is that satisfactory? →Raul654 00:20, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

   Yes! Excellent. Would you consider amending your comment to include a mention of the need to discuss changes to FA beforehand? Something like "In addition, making large-scale, undiscussed changes to Featured articles, which are recognized as Wikipedia's best articles for their completeness, accuracy, and neutrality, is often a bad idea."... Even if you decline to add this, your addition to the guideline is sufficient for me and if the editor who was revert warring will now desist I think the editing block may as well be lifted. JDG 00:37, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

   I don't agree that there's a need to proscribe discussion in advance - IMHO, it's fine as-is. →Raul654 00:39, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

8. I agree that prior discussion is an unreasonable requirement to impose. I have seen reasonable and productive changes made to featured articles without prior discussion and to the benefit of the article. As a matter of policy, I'd rather not add mandatory overhead to that, which may preclude such edits. Just as is the case anywhere else in wikipedia, people should undertake the good faith efforts on both sides to hash out issues and improve the article collaboratively. Prior consent or discussion does not itself guarantee that good faith will be established with the new members of the editing community for a particular article, who are essential to the viability of Wikipedia. If, on the other hand, people quickly step up and clearly state the substance of their objections, then you're much more likely to keep the article intact and its editing community healthy. Buffyg 10:48, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

   I strongly disagree, especially in cases where another Wikipedian is asking to discuss. Obviously it would be different on a low-traffic article where a potential overhauler cannot even flag down anybody's attention. Raul654's proposed addition is a good start, and I plan to press this in other policies and perhaps its own policy, including a strong recommendation to talk beforehand when there are other active editors. JDG 13:17, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

   As is the case with any other article if you end up with a dispute, you take it to the talk page. If you don't see a response on the article talk page, go to the user's talk page. If that fails, you ask for page protection. What I think would be useful would be some additional mechanisms within wikipedia to help mediate contentious editing. Specifically:

• The entry cannot be directly edited.
• A parallel page exists for editing purposes.
• Changes made to body of the parallel page are automatically propagated to the article after one day. Tag changes and interwiki links to the parallel page are propagated after one hour.
• The edit button on the entry takes you to the parallel page, which allows you to edit but explains the editing process.
• The parallel page has a cumulative diff view that lets you see all pending changes (the last twenty-four hours), the editors for the changes, and when they were committed to the parallel page.
• A revert viewer in the same diff view that shows you where you've have diffs reverted, who's done the reverts, and when (including repeated reverts).
• The entry and the parallel page share a talk page.
• Two reverts to the parallel page without citing vandalism or an accompanying entry on the talk page, referenced in the edit comments results in a 36 hour ban from editing the parallel page, including reverts. Three misidentifications of vandalism (i.e. calling content disputes vandalism) in a month, and you're banned from reverting the page for a week. (No gaming the system!)
• You should get this automatically if you're an FA or after or in lieu of a page protection request.
• Expedited resolution process by way of "lesser" mediation, along the lines of a third opinion pool, managed by a pool of admins. You are free to appeal, but the caveat would be that appeals over user conduct can be contested and blocked by the handler of the third opinion if they believe you have outstanding issues of good faith or civility (i.e. you must go to Canossa first; no gaming the system over these conduct fundamentals, whether you are the accused or the accuser). In cases of bad faith editing (i.e. unsupported changes), the lesser mediator can refer you to can refer you to "lesser" arbitration, which can ban you from editing an entry for up to one month, with one week being the preferred restriction. All of these mechanisms are for behaviour or content issues specific to a single entry. Other dispute mechanisms that believe that conduct or content entries are effectively specific to an entry can require disputing parties to use these mechanisms first. It would be nice if we had a capacity for private exchange pages between mediators and disputings parties so that we didn't have to resort to IRC.

1. The results I would anticipate are: no one can opt out of discussion, vandalism does not immediately propagate to articles, people can make changes with or without having to give prior justification, watching articles becomes easier because you can pop in daily and see at a stroke all activity for an entry you're watching, and some of the stress on the dispute resolution process (which I find overloaded and unclear, often allowing problems to fester). This would, of course, require a non-zero chunk of developer time. Buffyg 14:33, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Wow, some great ideas in there Buffy. I'm considering scaling my wikiactivity way back (all this fussing and fighting is of very questionable value-- if people like Mdude are going to run rampant, so be it... the project will self-heal eventually). If I decide to stay active, though, I'll be studying ways to get your proposals enacted. JDG 15:13, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I didn't notice that this was a protected page. Ok, so to everyone here - does anyone disagree with this change? If not, I'm going to add it back in 24 hours. →Raul654 01:12, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Would you consider not adding this change in light of its potential for abuse in the hands of a stubborn editor like user:JDG, who wants to use it to "claim ownership" over articles and deter others from contributing? I'm not the only editor he's been trying to push out of his "territory"; e.g., "The primary author of this long-Featured article is GWO. I have been the secondary author. We will need more than the whim of Zoso Jade and TacoDeposit to overturn this long accepted intro paragraph. Reinstating references. JDG 00:04, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)." Monicasdude 01:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Mdude, someday you'll understand the difference between a longtime contributing editor exercising a balanced care for the ongoing quality of an article and a truly antisocial editor who "claims ownership". An example of the former addresses you this moment; an example of the latter is as close as the nearest mirror. JDG 02:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe you should review the "no personal attacks" policy and the "no ownership" policy." Monicasdude 00:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

You accuse me of being an editor who "claims ownership". I accuse you of being an editor who "claims ownership". But somehow I am the only one making a "personal attack". More MLogic^tm. JDG 03:11, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't see the same potential for abuse that you do. To use the example you cite, changing a paragraph does not really qualify as "large-scale changes" in my opinion. For that matter, as you point out, there's already a policy specifically that covers this sort ouf situation (the no ownership policy) that prohibits that sort of not-made-here mentality. →Raul654 01:47, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

I still disagree with the change, which I don't think will surprise anybody. As the editing disputes that I and others have had with the editor who's repeatedly pushed for a change (never coming close to consensus support) of this sort show, it's, unfortunately, more likely to be used to abuse the editing process than to improve articles. I also think it doesn't take into account the way an FA can change after the initial designation, and an underlying process -- would, necessarily, an article still have been accepted by consensus as an FAif the designation carried more constrictive criteria about future editing? Monicasdude 00:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing "constrictive" (btw, though "constrictive" is a word, "constricting" is probably what you wanted-- I don't note this just to be a wiseguy: it's an example of the kind of thing you do to articles). Raul's addition urges care. It would only be constricting to ego-driven self-proclaimed experts who want to barge in and totally overhaul an existing FA in one undiscussed shot. Sound familiar? JDG 03:41, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with JDG on this one. We're not restricting anyone, just letting them know that making massive changes on articles we have already cited for their qualities is often [but not always] a detrimental thing. →Raul654 02:43, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Raul (Mark). Sorry about all the bickering connected with this. Hopefully it's over now. JDG 04:29, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know...

Does anyone know if there is some sort of group or official Association that has this policy as it's base? Something analogous to a Wikipedia:JETFA Association (Just Edit the [Pick the "F-ing" of your choice] Article Association)? It would serve to let people know the preference of editing an article instead of simply tagging it with {{wikify}} or {{cleanup}}. Hopefully this would cut down on the number of tagged articles (which is thousands and thousands at this point). Thoughts? --Lord Voldemort ^{(Dark Mark)} 20:44, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Practice and Preach

Everyone says be bold (litterally) but I often find my edits reversed. Yeah, I'm fairly new, and everyone's polite, but there still is a bit of descrpeency, or so it seems. As i get better, this may stop. Anyone else got this sensation? HereToHelp 01:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

That's because if your edits are not clearly an improvement, or worse, a "de-provement", obviously your edits will get reverted. People are allergic to poor edits. Temper your edit with be bold but only if you know what you are doing. Mandel 13:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

What happened to the Status Quo??

That's my question: what happened with the Status Quo? Why has been removed from the page (See [1])? Was there a discussion or something that permited that to be done? I would like to tell you that the Status Quo guideline has been used with some good results in many edit wars, why does it no longer exist? I'm not going to put it again, so don't be afraid, but I'm still curious about it. Maybe, after some discussion we could reinsert the Status Quo paragraph, but only after discussing it. --Neigel von Teighen 20:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Verify your facts before you update

The Be Bold policy has been used so often, I think now is the time for a "Verify your facts before you update" policy. Reason? So many articles on literature, sports, music etc. that I have seen have so much controversial stuffs going on that seemed just added impromptu. People use the "Be Bold" policy for being lazy. It's not a matter of NPOV, but a matter of how much you bother to confirm something before you update. For instance, there are many people who added controversial entries of stream of consciousness works (even Bob Dylan). If you are not sure at all, it's better to make a mention in the talk page rather than "be bold" and contribute garbage to Wikipedia. Mandel 09:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Half a month, and no reply?

As a newby here, it strikes me that all of the various opportunities to contribute - article, discussion/talk, etc. - provide a swirl of interaction. Like a variation of the entropy in Brownian movement, we reach a steady state of discussion intensity on a subject, if only for a given time. Interest wanes, the more vigorous or persuasive or authoritative prevail, and on we go to another area of interest. Different levels of mental and emotional discipline are seen: some use the talk page well, asking others to vet their contribution, and then they move it into the article. Others do not. But wikipedia is not a zero-sum game, nor is its rest entropy level zero: it achieves a non-zero steady state, fueled by the interests and passions of its contributors, and that is its charm and achievement.

Some interesting aspects are the attribution that accompanies each contribution, and the tone of the instructions for the site. Both sponsor civility and accountability. That may be the greatest contribution to wikipedia's vitality.BillBlask 15:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)BillBlask

Page protection

I see an edit war in which both sides are claiming consensus for the version they are reverting to, and no discussion on the talk page. I've protected the page. With no discussion, where does this "consensus" both sides are claiming come from? --Carnildo 22:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

There's been an ongoing dispute on this guideline, over the extent to which what sort of changes should call for talk page activity before the changes can be implemented, and which set of articles such a standard should apply to. Proposals to change the existing guideline, brought forward under the existing policy/practice of requiring Talk activity and consensus before making any significant alteration to the guideline have failed. Most recently, in September, a proposal requiring Talk activity/consensus before major changes to Featured Articles failed by roughly a 2:1 margin. The change under dispute was first added on October 20 by user:Mandel, without complying with the page guideline calling for prior discussion. The change would apply a requirement for prior Talk activity before major changes to any article. I think it is fair to say that the resolution of the September proposal, with a clear majority of editors finding such a requirement too drastic to apply to Featured Articles, also shows a consensus against applying a similar requirement to the entire universe of Wikipedia articles. With that background, I don't believe the guideline should be changed without the sort of notice, discussion and opportunities to participate in discussion that accompanied previous proposals. This change was initially made without even an edit summary. [For background, see in particular section 9 ("Poll") on this talk page as well as sections 3, 4, 5, and 8. Monicasdude 22:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Carnildo. Both sides keep saying(I paraphrase slightly), "There's no consensus against what I'm doing. Stop reverting me." However, there was no consensus to make the change they keep arguing either. There was no consensus either way. This means we default to the version before the change. For policies and guidelines, (quite in contrast to the spirit of "Be bold", which is for articles), there must be consensus before adding something major. It is not acceptable to add something then try to keep it there, which is what happened here. As far as I can tell, no changes following this revision have been proposed on talk. The change being argued about was first made here, I believe. As you can see, there is not even an edit summary. Therefore, I think we should revert to the aforementioned revision. Then, changes can be proposed on talk, and if they gain broad consensus(not 2-1), then they can be implemented. Superm401 | Talk 03:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this 100%. In the heat of the argument, I lost what should have been a central point, that I'm supporting an existing guideline, not proposing any change. Thank you for stating this argument so much more clearly than I did. Monicasdude 03:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Does "don't be reckless" cover article upheavals?

I'm probably rehashing arguments above, but it seems to me that if an article is reasonably complete (and I don't mean only FA's) and has stabilized over a long period of time (let's say six months), major reworks should be cleared in the discussion area first. It's hurtful to the craft of an article's earlier drafters to have all the work drastically changed without a discussion of the proposed changes first. I think the Wikipedia will drive away many of its best editors if in cases of major, stabilized work, it can be drastically changed without involving the previous editors. In law, we have precedent, and in an encyclopedia, it seems to me, we should have some sort of respect for longstanding material. This is not to say that article upheavals should not take place, but only that those who want to make such major changes should do so in a civil, respectful manner. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work} 20:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Be Cautious - a new proposed policy

In its current form, it is about being cautious in making edits to the policy pages in the user space. You may want to join in at Wikipedia talk:Be cautious. --Gurubrahma 09:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

"Don't worry about his/her feelings"?

I was just reading this page and noticed the line, "If someone writes an inferior article, a merely humorous article, an article stub, or outright patent nonsense, don't worry about his/her feelings." Don't worry about his/her feelings? What? What about civility? What about wikiquette? What about no personal attacks? I understand what this line is supposed to mean in context (don't hang back from editing an article because you're afraid that just by editing another person's words you'll be hurting his/her feelings), but I am concerned at how it could undermine our attempts to maintain a polite and civil atmosphere. I'm wondering if anyone else is bothered by this. - AdelaMae ^{(talk - contribs)} 02:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree this sentence should be reformulated; a majority of people do understand, but lots don't read each and every gideline published. Marf3 21:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

• I reworded it to say "don't worry that editing it might hurt their feelings". Obviously we have to follow WP:CIV, WP:NPA, WP:BITE et. al. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 08:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

No no no i dont belive any of this junk no way all lies i looked it up in 100 different sourses dont belive it no no no

Should I be bold?...

...because whenever I have been "bold", I got fucked over by the Government fiends here. Isn't that what should not happen? -Alex, 12.220.157.93 20:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC).

True. Whenever I make bold edits, they are reverted by administrators. Maybe it's because of my name... The Republican 02:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

If you really want to be bold, you can revert vandalism yourself. That's what I do nowadays, since I don't have anymore articles to edit. Funnybunny 02:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Eh, how could I be bold if some admin is as bold to delete an innocent stub I make? --Arny 10:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Sue sue sue just sue the dam goverment god

Reading Around

Myopic Bookworm added "It's also worth reading around some related articles, as what you thought was a problem or omission may vanish after you have followed a few links." However, I would argue that if following links is necessary for understanding, there is an omission. Thus, being bold wouldn't usually hurt. Superm401 - Talk 16:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, but I've seen several articles get into a right mess because people pile into general topics adding stuff which is has already been covered much better in more focused articles elsewhere. Maybe the point is that adding a well-chosen link may be better than adding a lot more text. Myopic Bookworm 16:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

PS My sentence is back in again after I reverted some deletion-vandalism: if Superm401 actually edited the article, then I don't know where that version went. Myopic Bookworm 23:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't edit the article (or say I did :) ). I do think that addition should be removed, but I wanted to discuss it first. This is really general editing advice beyond the scope of BOLD. Your concern is covered well at Wikipedia:Summary style. Superm401 - Talk 20:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer: I hadn't stumbled across that page yet. Myopic Bookworm 10:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Be bold...

...But not too bold. Maybe there should be another article under that title, "but not too bold"; as some people tend to get over excited or over "bold" and just start deleting or reverting things. Basically, an article on what you should know, before you go bold. Or, you could just link to the wikipedia guidelines / first-article tutorials. That would work.