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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Pmresource (talk | contribs) at 21:31, 13 November 2011 (→Azarbaijani Kurds: Comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Azarbaijani Kurds

Azarbaijani Kurds (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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There is not any RS.Smells of WP:POV, WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:Partisanship.This article is a fork as we have already Iranian Kurdistan, Kurdish population ,History of the Kurdish people and host of such articles.This article is basically a product of nationalist WP:SOAPing. --Orartu (talk) 05:09, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can rename and rewrite the article . The name can be changed to Kurds of Iranian Azarbaijan because it is not ambiguous in which Azerbaijan we are talking , and the Kurds in the republic of Azerbaijan may have a distinct article . About the Reliable sources and POV problems in the article , every single sentence can be changed after discussion , but the whole topic is not a self-made topic : as the history of the Kurdish presence in Azerbaijan and their dominance in the regions south of the lake Urumia is a clear fact . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:45, 22 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • CommentKurds in Iran is the NPOV name for this topic and it already exists.After Islam the word Kurd is referred to nomadic people in general, not to a specific ethnic.David Mackenzie: «If we take a leap forward to the Arab conquest we find that the name Kurd has taken a new meaning becoming practically synonmous with 'nomad', if nothing more pejorative» D.N. Mackenzie, «The Origin of Kurdish», Transactions of Philological Society, 1961, pp 68-86 ;Richard Frye,«The Golden age of Persia», Phoneix Press, 1975. Second Impression December 2003. pp 111: "Tribes always have been a feature of Persian history, but the sources are extremly scant in reference to them since they did not 'make' history. The general designation 'Kurd' is found in many Arabic sources, as well as in Pahlavi book on the deeds of Ardashir the first Sassanian ruler, for all nomads no matter whether they were linguistically connected to the Kurds of today or not. --Orartu (talk) 17:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think the term "Kurd" in ancient times was been used interchangeably as Iranian [language] nomads , mostly highlanders.Anyway , my proposed name is Kurds of Iranian Azarbaijan . Iranian Kurds , has it's own corresponding article . But if you mean it does not needs a separate article , I think it is a reasonable idea . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument is wrong in both aspects. There are reliable sources and I don't understand how you deny it. The article is obviusly not fork, else we must consider articles such as Kurds in Iraq, Kurds in Turkey and so on forks of Kurdish people!. What you also mentioned about the historical usage of the term Kurd is right, but the article tries to present infos about current situation, not past. An example could be the usage of the term Azerbaijan for the current Caucasusian republic, while historically the terms of Arran and Shirvan were in use for that region.--Aliwiki (talk) 22:09, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The use of the term is clearly evident in the link provided by Aliwiki thus establishing notability. Sources appear to exist, work needs to be done to get the article up to standard though but this is not a reason for deletion. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • CommentBut Aliwiki's provided link is about Kurds in Republic of Azerbaijan, but this article is about kurds in Iranian Azerbaijan.You as a reader confused, then this article is problamatic.--Orartu (talk) 20:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 14:54, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 14:54, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. —LadyofShalott 14:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This was never listed on any logs, listing now for wider input. GB fan 11:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
CommentThis article is not related to Kurds in Azerbaijan, it is fork of Kurds in Iran.This article is problamatic, the title is completely wrong, there is not any reliable source for claims.The necessary materials about Kurds in Iran are mentioned in Kurds in Iran,this article is basically a product of nationalist WP:SOAPing. --Orartu (talk) 13:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's more complicated than it appears . That is true that page Kurds in Iran , deals with the subject in perspective , but this page (Azarbaijani Kurds) was supposed to expand one of it's elements in detail . The essence of such expansion lies in that the ultra nationalist Kurdish groups have a conflict with their Turkish counterparts in that both groups want to prove the region as their domain of influence . Pan-Turks tend to deny the fact that the Kurds are indigenous in West Azerbaijan and ultra nationalist Kurdish groups say vice versa. Summary : this article is the subject of inflammatory debates among some political groups , and this may justify it as an expansion for it's mother article that is Kurds in Iran . The article needs re-writing , Wikifying and neutralization with reliable sources.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 05:49, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I must also add that Iran's government for creating human frontier, between Azerbaijanis of Iran and Turkish people of Turkey,supports the migration of Kurds to the lands of Iranian Azerbaijan, and want to make West Azerbaijan province which is a frontier province a land for Kurds[2], also many Iraqi Kurd refugees are in West Azerbaijan province with permission of Iran's government[3].According to The Continuum political encyclopedia of the Middle East

, "In Iran, three provinces are inhabited predominantly by Azerbaijanis: East Azerbaijan Province, West Azerbaijan and Ardabil" but Iran governments want to change the majority in favor of Kurds in West Azerbaijan province, and for reaching this purpose, want to create history for Kurds in Azerbaijan, then Azarbaijani Kurds can be also politically motivated concept and also contradicts WP:NOTADVERTISINGand WP:PROMOTION.Pan Kurds, Pan Iranists(Pan-Farsists) and Pan-Turks or other groups can expand Kurds in Iran article, this article Azarbaijani Kurds is problamatic and confusing and must be deleted.The ancient attendance of ethnic Kurds in Iranian Azerbaijan is completely POV (as I mentioned above) and is basically a product of nationalist WP:SOAPing, but about present attandance of ethnic Kurds in Azerbaijan of Iran, there are materials in Kurds in Iran, and diiferent groups can expand it neutrally.--Orartu (talk) 07:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep with Rename : First I was not sure if there is a need a separate article for this topic , other than Kurds in Iran , but now I can see that is a controversial dialogue between ultra nationalist groups of two ethnic groups of that region . Both parties may represent their points of view in this topic . The sources are very weak , but it can be corrected . I ask User:Orartu , not to delete the sources for reaching the standard of Wikipedia . It is not correct to nominate the article for deletion because it don't have reliable sources , meanwhile when someone adds a sourced material , the nominating person deleting the source !

The name should be changed to Kurds in Iranian Azarbaijan (or Kurds in Iranian Azerbaijan) --Alborz Fallah (talk) 07:22, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The content is fork and there are materials about kurds in Iranian Azerbaijan in Kurds in Iran and also this proposed title will contradict WP:OR--Orartu (talk) 04:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You have added unrelated sources, this article subject is not about Kurdicized Turks or Turkicized Kurds.Kurds in Modern Iran is completely about necessary materials about Kurds in Azerbaijan of Iran.Also you must bring sources about kurds in Azarbaijan not Azerbaijan.The topic of this article is politically motivated.Orartu (talk) 07:31, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how adding an article to a see also section counts as canvassing. It appears relevant to the articles it was added to. IRWolfie- (talk) 17:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Kurds in Azerbaijan is about the Kurds of the Republic of Azerbaijan , but this article is about the Kurds in Iranian Azerbaijan.--109.162.212.197 (talk) 07:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, this article has a wrong title then. According to google books, Azerbaijani Kurds is used in reference to those Kurds residing in the republic of Azerbaijan.--Rafy talk 16:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They must add links to related articles since it is marked as an orphan. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why did not perform previously?Before nominating this article for delete?The were aware about this article.Their only aim is convassing.--Orartu (talk) 04:15, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep a simple search on Google scholar reveals that term is used by many scholars. Kurdo777 (talk) 14:55, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a reason to have multiple articles on the same thing. See WP:CFORK and WP:REDIRECT. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please show me,because I cannot find,Azarbaijani kurds on google scholar.--Orartu (talk) 04:10, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
ASCIIn2Bme@ That is an expansion of a paragraph in Iranian Kurds article . Not a WP:CFORK . Why do you think it is a Fork ? Iranian Kurds live in 9 provinces of Iran and this article discuss about 4 province out of 9 . Aren't you confusing Azerbaijan province of Iran with Republic of Azerbaijan ? I did my best for preventing this confusion by using the Iranian pronunciation of Azarbaijan instead of Azerbaijan . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
At most one paragraph in this article is currently referenced. If that's an expansion, it's not one that belongs in Wikipedia. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:01, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm doing my best and adding many references to the article , but user orartu is constantly deleting them . If you are interested , please take a look at the deleted references:[12]--Alborz Fallah (talk) 20:12, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This article is completely fork,here is English wikipedia not Farsi wikipedia and English pronunciation must be respected not Farsi.--Orartu (talk) 18:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To be a fork , the name is not the determining factor : the content is important . The mother article is Iranian Kurds . The legitimate daughter article as an expansion of a paragraph of that article is our article of debate . Why shouldn't we expand that part ? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:13, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The content is fork too, and I explained about it above.Expand it neutrally in mother article, with reliable sources.Because mother article's title is healthy and neutral but illegitimate daughter article's title is politically motivated. --Orartu (talk) 18:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think is it useful in avoiding confusion with article Kurds in Azerbaijan ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:45, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Likewise the new title as previous one contradicts WP:OR WP:OR, WP:V, WP:NPOV and also created new confusions and made the situation worse than before,because Iranian Azerbaijani is the name of an ethnic, Iranian Azarbaijani kurds means kurds who are Azerbaijani-ethnics.--Orartu (talk) 07:38, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Yeah, renaming of the article does make this situation worse by all means. Now there is confusion between ethnic origins. I believe firstly, the name of the article needs to become Azerbaijani Kurds before we can progress into this request for deletion. At the end of it all, this article should be kept and people need to realize the sensitive nature of this topic. Jab843 (talk) 22:30, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The new version of the article [14] still gets a delete from me. Some sources which make statements about the Kurds in general or the Atropatene history are cited to justify this article, but they don't support the statements cited, e.g. the first source says nothing about "Azarbaijani Kurds"; the Brill source doesn't say that "Azerbaijani Kurds are native Iranic people", etc. This is original research by using sources to advance a new theory at best, and several of the sources are misrepresented as well, in violation of WP:V. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 01:18, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Delete Kurds didn't played much in Azerbaijan's history, even though they are not small ethnic minority so relevance of this topic is very doubtful and useless. There are barely any famous kurds in Azerbaijani history so this article is partisanship.--NovaSkola (talk) 08:22, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: User Orartu says, Because the word Azerbaijan is known for English-speakers not the word Azarbaijan. Found this major work (375 cites) and this one via Google Scholar among many published works in English. Can't figure out the problem in this article. New explanations are welcome. Will decide when these are provided. Thanks. Pmresource (talk) 21:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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