Talk:Utica, New York

See the Utica Page at http://UticaForum.org

Pictures

What's up with the photos of Utica that get posted? For the longest time, the page had a picture of the Radisson, and Adirondack Bank beneath a grey, gloomy sky. Let's show a little pride, and put up some pictures that show off how nice the area can actually look. Other city pages have pics of monuments, and different districts. Utica has many monuments, as well as historical buildings, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.76.146 (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, these are the most accurate pictures I've seen of Utica. Other pictures (like that of the Hotel) are often photochopped to remove surrounding blight and adds a false blue sky with CG-generated clouds. Keep the cloudy pictures... It's more common than you think. However, as you mentioned, please feel free to add the many "landmark society"-protected edifices that are in decrepit condition. Not having those pictures gives an incomplete impression of Utica for the average reader that won't have the time (or a reason) to visit Utica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.236.176.195 (talk) 20:03, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Joseph Crandall??

In about thirty years of doing research and publishing on Utica's history, I've never encountered this name. I can't say with certainty that there was no such person who may have passed through the area, but it's contradictory to say that the place was "founded" by a person named Crandall and then to say that it was first settled nearly 70 years later--"foundation" means the beginning of meaningful settlement. In fact, before the American Revolution there were no more than a handful of white people living in the entirety of Oneida County, let alone the site of Utica. The village of Utica was not incorporated until the 1790s. This reference to this Crandall as Utica's "founder," for which the person who submitted it does not seem to have offered any documentation, is highly misleading, perhaps even fictional, and has now been repeated by a number of websites that refer to the history of Utica, which shows how problematic this Wiki process really is.

I agree with the person who contends that Herkimer is not a suburb of Utica. That takes quite a stretch of the imagination.

Finally, I don't see how anyone who has been around and who knows anything about Italian-American culture can say that "greens" is a distinctively Utica dish. There may be distinctive ways in which escarole is prepared in Utica--notably in the common practice of adding pickled red cherry peppers, which does not seem to be common, although I cannot say if it's uniquely Utican--but southern Italian immigrants were more fond of leafy green vegetables, specifically sauteed in olive oil and garlic, than the average American, so to say that "greens" is distinctive of Utica is really not accurate. Sauteed escarole, broccoli rabe, and so forth were eaten all over Italian-America.

It doesn't matter, it was popularized in Utica. Spooky873 (talk) 21:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Herkimer as most significant suburb???

Someone keeps modifying the page to include Herkimer as Utica's most significant suburb. Anyone from the area knows that New Hartford is the commercial center of the Mohawk Valley. I live in Herkimer County, and not only is it the poorest county in the state, but the people have little ties to Utica from an economic and social standpoint. Furthermore, Herkimer a 15 minute drive from Utica, whereas New Hartford borders the city.

If anyone else wants to comment on this please do. I just don't understand how Herkimer has any relevance here.

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Whether Herkimer's a suburb of Utica is open to debate. But much of what you say is not. Many rural counties in southwestern and northeastern New York are "poorer" counties (in terms of household income) than Herkimer County. And what's absolutely indisputable is the notion that there are "little ties" to Utica economically and socially.

Herkimer is part of the Utica-Rome metropolitan statistical area, and with good reason. The Observer-Dispatch has reported that about 10,000 Herkimer County residents travel to Utica for work each day, and about 4,500 Oneida County residents make the reverse commute.

While New Hartford is the undisputed commercial center of the Mohawk Valley, Herkimer also is a retail anchor of the Utica-Rome MSA. In the past decade, it's seen significant "big box" growth, and the trend is continuing, with Lowe's and Olive Garden being built on the village's east side. (Lowe's opted to located in North Utica and Herkimer instead of New Hartford. Olive Garden opted for Herkimer over New Hartford.)

To say that Herkimer being a 15-minute drive from Utica discounts it as a suburb is rather ridiculous. Most parts of DeWitt are 15 minutes from downtown Syracuse. Is it not a suburb of Syracuse? Colonie's 15 minutes from Albany. Is it not a suburb? (And for the record, Herkimer County borders Utica as much as New Hartford does, not that "bordering" a city is a requirement for it a suburb.)

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Herkimer is most definitely not a suburb of Utica. Yes, there is a fifteen or twenty minute drive between the two, but there is literally nothing in between other than Routes 5 and 5S. Frankfort and Schuyler are much closer, why not name them suburbs of Utica? Just because a few Herkimer County residents commute to Utica does not qualify it as a suburb, and also consider that many of those commuters come from areas north of Herkimer, such as Poland and Barneveld also. Having a direct highway between the two is not enough to justify this classification. Why not call Albany a suburb of New York City? Even better, why not call the entire states of New Jersey and Connecticut suburbs of NYC?

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.253.66 (talk) 15:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I can live with the current edit.

Discrepancy with Isaac Singer's Birthplace

I'm a long time reader, first time contributor (ha ha). Anyways, being a resident of Rome, New York, which is near Utica, I did not realize that good 'ol Isaac Singer was born in Utica. However, according to the article for Issac Singer, he was born in Pittstown, New York. So which is it- Utica or Pittsford? It's driving me nuts!!!!!

Not that I doubt anyone will care about this discrepancy, but it's still wrong, I tell you. --24.59.3.206 13:36, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Britannica says Pittstown, NY. I'll remove the Utica birth statement here on that basis unless otherwise corrected by more authoritative source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TealCyfre0 (talk • contribs) 20:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Bosnian immigrants?

Any proof that they have "invigorated" the economy? 24.215.250.48 13:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I've heard that Utica has the largest Kosovan-Albanian population in upstate NY, is this true? And if so perhaps this needs to be mentioned along with the Bosnian information. And also if this is true then perhaps someone should find out why people from these former Yugoslavian areas are coming to Utica, why Utica? and what started it.

They're called Kosovars, and the Balkans experienced a series of civil wars, resulting from the breakup of Yugoslavia, which lasted throughout the 1990s thus leading to refugees fleeing Eastern Europe into other European countries, and also to the United States. Eastern European economies are less sound than their Western European counterparts, so the emigration continues today. Also, Utica has a refugee center which also explains the numbers of Bosnians, Albanians, and Kosovars; as well as Burmese, Sudanese, Laotians, Vietnamese, Somalians, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.76.146 (talk) 23:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Black and White and half moon all over

Utica's half moon cookies seem similar to black and whites, but they have a chocolate sugar cookie base? Is that right? -HiFiGuy 17:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

No they are definitely not sugar cookies, more like a cake. What are they like elsewhere? Fduross 14:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to say that they're not sugar cookies down here (NYC metro), either. (I'm no black and white/halfmoon connoiseur.) Were they really invented in Utica, as the b&w article says? That could use a citation. Also, someone should say what "greens" are. An outsider would think it some kind of salad, and not escarole. -HiFiGuy 04:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Half moon cookie batter are similar to surgar cookies, but the flour is more glutenous. This is original research as I was a baker in my youth, who learned from my father. Less sugar, different flour, less butter content. Greens are dandelion greens unless they are unavailable them most people use 'scarole. Dominick ^(TALK) 17:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The two are interchangeable. I lived in NYC and Utica each half of my life and there is nothing but a vague difference they are the same. If you want to split microscopic hairs about it I guess so but where do you draw the line? NYC B&Ws are identical to HalfMoons save for the aprticular bakerie's recipie. That's it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.50.132 (talk) 04:52, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

The long lost neighborhood of NYC

Having lived in Utica, Jersey and NYC, I can't help but notice the cultural similarities between them. The only real difference is the economics and population obviously but culturally there are many parallels. I don't understand how some people can regard some upstate cities to be the exact opposite culturally because its simply not true. Walk around Albany or Utica and ill guarantee at least half of the people you meet are NYC transplants. Utica can honestly be considered a satellite city of NYC. Do some research and find out for yourself without blindly saying otherwise, you will be surprised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.76.146 (talk) 22:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The story on "Greens"...and John Frink from Oriskany, not Utica

Sorry Spooky, “Greens are not exclusive, nor even originally associated with or originally popularized in Utica

The Dish is a traditional central Sicilian breakfast food and is much more closely associated with the neighboring city of ROME NY, then Utica. “Greens” or escarole boiled, then fried in garlic and olive oil, was brought to Rome NY, via Syracuse and New York City, by immigrants from the central Sicilian town of Marianapoli and the surrounding area.

It was commercially popularized in upstate NY, in the 60s and 70s by a restaurant called “Paddys stagecoach inn” located just outside of Rome NY, which featured rustic Italian dishes, and soon after by a hand full of late night breakfast restaurants,(Most notably the "Hollywood", and "3 sons") first in Rome, then in Utica. They are traditionally served with eggs, steak, and a crusty Italian toasted bread Strangely, the dish seems to be all but commercially absent in larger North Eastern cities.

John Frink was born and raised in the nearby Village of Oriskany, not the city of Utica. This should be given a pass however, since Oriskany is a recognized Utica suburb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.232.167.34 (talk) 12:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct about "greens". "Utica Greens" which have been featured on Food network are actually a bastardization of the original Sicilian dish, which is absent any chicken broth, potatoes and peppers, and are simply boiled escarole, fried in olive oil with garlic, salt and pepper. Some localized Sicilian recipes call for a tiny amount of anchovy to be liquefied and infused in the olive oil. This dish came first to NY city, then Syracuse and Rome NY, and was seen in resteraunts as far back as the 1930s. They were not seen in restaurants in Utica till the early 1980s, mostly in after hour breakfast places. Not sure when this “Utica Greens” recipe reared it’s head Cosand (talk) 14:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Where's the beer?

No mention of FX Matt? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.22.236.230 (talk) 18:58, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sausage and peppers?

Sausage and pepper sandwiches are not unique to Utica, were not first created in Utica and are so widespread that at this point they cannot be considered "unique" to any one region of the US. Also, the "greens" entry: in the discussion above, a Wiki member discusses the origin of this dish, which was in Sicily, not Utica, not the US. Although the dish may have gained popularity in Upstate NY, the area of popularity of the dish does not change the place of origin. The heading for this section should be changed; these dishes are not unique to Utica.Sincizzil (talk) 19:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

intro?

citizens of utica are known as Bitches?

I moved to Utica, and I definitely don't call them Bitches. Actually, I call them Fat Bitches.

re John Hoederman

I removed the following uncited sentence from the beginning of the Demographics section:

The founder of Utica, New York was a pioneer of Dutch ancestry named John Hoedeman, who moved west from the Atlantic coast of New York in the early 18th century.

First of all, this sentence is misplaced - it would belong in the History section, not the Demographics section. Much more importantly, I have to question the veracity of the statement. I can't find any evidence that Hoedeman even existed, let alone founded Utica. Also, note the following opening to the History section:

Utica was first settled by Europeans in 1773...

Both these statements can't be correct. (One has to wonder by "Europeans" the editor mean "Americans of European extraction", but whatever). My considered opinion is that the second statement is more like correct. Obviously a proper citation would clear the matter up. Herostratus (talk) 04:22, 26 April 2010 (UTC) (Some elements redacted Herostratus (talk) 18:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC))

UPDATE: The Utica Historical Society has no record of a John Hoedeman. Herostratus (talk) 02:15, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

FYI: Leatherstocking Region no longer includes Oneida County

http://www.madisoncountycourier.com/government-politics/state-officials-agree-to-change-name-of-leatherstocking-region-12678/

So says a local newspaper. If true, the references to the Region in this Article are in need of revision, clarification or something. I am just a passerby, so I hesitate to butt in with edits. Stwiso (talk) 06:28, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

How is there no mention of the Mafia?

The Italian Mafia played a huge part in Utica's 20th century history. Rufie Elefante and the Falcone brothers? How is there virtually zero mention of that? I think its significant enough if the Observer Dispatch had a week long special on the Mob ties in the area and its influence. Theres also no mention of Utica's most prominent ethnic makeup, Italians. If im an outsider reading this, im thinking Utica is just Welsh and Bosnian. What the heck is that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.96.234 (talk) 05:15, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Heres a link to the Observer Dispatches week long special look at the rise of the Mob and its ties to Utica.

http://www.uticaod.com/mobfiles/x407217072/DAY-1-The-Mob-Files

This has to be included in this article otherwise you are just overlooking nearly 50 years of history in Utica, and arguably its most important history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.96.234 (talk) 05:26, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Also, theres a even a book written about Utica Italians.

http://www.haverford.edu/news/stories/42411/51 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.96.234 (talk) 05:31, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. When I have a chance I will "be bold" and add a section on the subject. Cosand (talk) 14:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

You have a chance now - it's the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Just as long as your material is sourced per WP:RS and WP:V. Don't worry about making mistakes, and message me if you want any help. Herostratus (talk) 18:35, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

P.S. On talk pages, new material goes at the bottom. Herostratus (talk) 18:38, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Just wondering why someone saw fit to change the title of the organized crime section from “Organized Crime Mecca” to simply “Organized Crime In Utica” ? I think the new title grossly understates the status and my citations more than show evidence that the term “Mecca” applies. Thought? Cosand (talk) 18:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I changed it. "Mecca" is too informal in my opinion. Something like "Organized crime center" would be OK, but is it true? The material seems to indicate that Utica was subsidiary to the Buffalo mob and so forth rather than the other way around. If Utica was a headquarters for a mob that had tentacles in other major cites than it would be an organized crime center, but I'm not seeing that. Compare for instance to Providence Rhode Island - the Providence mob did dominate operations in Boston and elsewhere in the Northeast (I think). Herostratus (talk) 19:32, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. "Mecca" is not the right word, and I am struggling to think of the correct word.It would be a word defined as " a place of convergence of several factions of a specific order". Too complicated, yourheading is best. Sometimes less is more. Thanks Cosand (talk) 20:41, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

"Second Chance City" or "The Town That Loves Refugees" or what?

Apparently the Reader's Digest titled an article about the city "Second Chance City" and this was used as a section header. I don't know how much this has caught on. Another editor changed the header to "The Town That Loves Refugees" based on a UN article. Both of these come up in Google, but not really very much. I changed this to a more neutral and descriptive "21st Century immigrant influx" but not sure that is correct either. So should this header be

• Second Chance City
• The Town That Loves Refugees
• 21st Century immigrant influx

or something else? Herostratus (talk) 04:52, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

This Utica page is a disaster and inconsistant with typical Wikipedia pages of like-sized cities.

This page is a mess it is incorrectly formatted and the information presented borders on "everyon in town trying to get in on the act" and has made the entire webpage a disaster.

Cmaon, "Annual snowfall" and a huge chart taking up the page from 1920s?

I made some edits to rearrange things and Editor "Excirial" popped in and immediately reverted back the swap and the removal of some of the more loaded lists of every little fundraiser that goes on in town. These were replaced by Excirial also.

I am not a frequent Wiki "editor" and only offer changes based upon very specific and valuable expertise in several varied interests across WP. I am also a Wikipedia monitary contributor since 2008. If I can't come to my hometown's Wikipedia page, and make a change to some thing that is obviously wrong or overblown, and these changes are reverted by someone who obviously doesn't live there or seem to see how strange a list of NFPs and all the stack of "Signature events" (Really?) then why do I continue to keep supporting and using this website?

Below it the note I left "Excirial" in their mailbox. I will wait a response. Let's see if anyone can help figure out a way to address this kind of nonsense in the future because the info is plain wrong and formetted like a disaster and apparently that;s fine with some people.

The note:

The article starts of with the title and after the basic paragraph you see "Geography and climate"? I moved it and "Demographics" below history and more useful initials figuring the huge graphs and charts were a little much. What other cities could we find on Wikipedia that follow this odd and cumbersome formatting like this? It just seemed odd and glaring and has caught my attention for some time now. The folks in utica have an obsession with their Wikipedia page they discuss it on the local "Topix" page. They also place a huge emphasis on weather in their area both local news stations open with news and withing 7 minutes begin discussing at miniumum 15 minutes of weather with a recap after sports after that. And that's on a warm summer evening. Ditto the news paper to some extent. I'm not kidding so it seemed some of that weird enthusiasm has managed to find its way with enthusiasm onto the wiki page here.

If you look at Utica's page you might notice all the NFPs and minor minor local organizations have all been listed also in discordance with like articles on the Wikipedia. As well as a (to a local at least) lot of gross embellishment, itself a Utica trait of notoriety there. I drop in from time to time and make sure they aren't claiming their Auditorium was the "Inspiration for Madison Square Garden" despite its architect building an almost identical design some years earlier in NC etc, and a strangely inordinate number of other like wives tales I heard from them living there over the years and later learned were completely unfounded and untrue.

That Utica page has become a sort of untended battlefield between reality and their imaginary land Excirial. If that sounds strange I'm sorry but to someone with a little experience on the place that's not strange at all that's just "Utica".

So I'll check in and see what you decide sometime, I see by your barnstar for helping out that you'll make a good choice or keep it in mind when you see someone expect go try to tighten that page up it looks ridiculous... if you compare it with a like-sized similar city's Wikipedia article. Everyone in town with the slightest claim to fame has their website listed and embellishments in full force trying to get in on the act like it's a free website. There is not enough normal, plain history and facts as you'd see in a normal Wikipedia page. Just count how many businesses are listed on the page alone. It's something like a cross between apublic edited version of one of those junk content farm "Business Listings" sites and a "Myspace" page. If you strike changes to that much bloat and incorrectly sequenced charts and "Demographics" it just grows until the huge stack of lists as you see there and easily stands out as inconsistent with what you'd expect to see on a typical cities page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.241.24.237 (talk) 19:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)