Talk:Utica, New York

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Good article Utica, New York has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Did You Know Article milestones
Date Process Result
June 17, 2015 Guild of Copy Editors Copyedited
August 25, 2015 Good article nominee Listed
October 19, 2015 Peer review Reviewed
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on September 11, 2015.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Utica, New York (pictured), was once larger than Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland?
Current status: Good article

So what's it called?[edit]

So the infobox has a fair number of nicknames:

  • Handshake City,
  • Renaissance City,
  • Capital of the Erie Canal
  • Second Chance City

which none of these have cites (at least not there in the infobox) and the last actually has a citation needed tag. I went to add a fifth,

  • The City That God Forgot

which at least has a ref, here, at the Children's Museum, how good that is I don't know since it's a children's museum rather than an academic journal or whatever. An editor rolled that back though (it was malformed anyway so maybe he did it for that reason). But rather than including names that don't have refs and excluding those that do, or having like five names, can we find a way to figure out a couple-three that we're confident about? Herostratus (talk) 10:35, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to you this article is now semi protected. This rhetoric you keep introducing is almost straight from Utica's Topix. Buffaboy (talk) 17:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Flag[edit]

Despite the poor quality of the flag image I added, it's necessary until a high quality vector can be created. I hope editors understand. Buffaboy talk 23:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

  • File:New Utica NY Logo.png is being used in this article but the image is using the {{Non-free logo}} template. Therefore, a fair use rationale is required on the image page. maclean (talk) 15:59, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
Maclean25, thanks for pointing that out, I'll be sure to add one. Buffaboy talk 17:39, 24 April 2015 (UTC)


Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2015[edit]

Utica, NY has a diverse collection of cultural venues including, The Munson Williams Proctor arts Institute. Located in downtown Utica, it was founded in 1919 and is named after a prominent local family with the lineage starting with Alfred Munson with his wife Elizabeth. They had two children one of which being Helen who married James Watson Williams. Helen, a well-known creative arts decorator and philanthropist, started to accumulate the family’s art collection, which would be the start of the institute.[1]

Another of the city’s arts institutions is Sculpture space. Sculpture space is an international artist residency located in the heart of Utica; it has been in place since 1976, and it hosts twenty artist each year. Since their opening they have hosted over five-hundred artists from around the world. Sculpture space is a nonprofit association receiving its funds from state and national grants and many private donations.[2]

A more recent addition to the Utica Arts community is, The Utica Music and Arts Festival (UMAF). Which was founded in 2007 by Joe Sweet, Utica native and local business owner. The festival consists of two days, September eleventh and twelfth featuring over 100 bands and artists throughout the city.[3]

Brianlucenti (talk) 15:38, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

It is not impossible to include things about cultural institutions, however.....if the text supplied above is exactly what you want to see, that is not going to happen. the subject of the article is the city, not any given institutions in it. What is needed for sourcing is reliable secondary sources like newspapers and magazines discussing the places. What is needed for copy is text describing where and what; some amount of how and who only if the particular who is notable. So for now, Not done

John from Idegon (talk) 17:44, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

C/E imminent[edit]

Attn. page watchers, this article will be undergoing a copy edit shortly, it is currently in the hole at WP:GoCE. 04:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2015[edit]

The current Mayor of Utica, Robert M. Palmieri is a Democrat. Not Republican 216.171.185.75 (talk) 15:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Reference? John from Idegon (talk) 15:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done The IP is correct:[1]. Altamel (talk) 18:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Utica, New York/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jsayre64 (talk · contribs) 16:47, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I will start my review shortly. Jsayre64 (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very, very much. I felt as if it would be December by the time this article was reviewed, but I have been checking the GAN page every few days. A ton of work has been put into it after its worst vandalised revision (though most revisions since its inception have been subpar). Buffaboy talk 19:35, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's definitely much improved from that version. I saw this was one of the older GANs, and I figured it was sensible to review it before I nominated an article I've been working on for FA. Jsayre64 (talk) 20:38, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. Has an appropriate reference section:
    B. Cites reliable sources, where necessary:
    C. No original research:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:


  • The lead jumps straight from the Mohawk tribe to immigrants, cities and canals; it should briefly mention the in-between history—when white people first arrived and settled.
    •  Done
  • As the guidelines recommend at WP:LEADCITE, have citations in the lead section only for challengeable/controversial info. In this case, that would include “Sin City” and “the city that God forgot”. Make sure that all info. in the lead is repeated and cited in the body of the article.
    •  Done
  • Be more specific with causes and effects in the lead’s third paragraph. Regarding population loss, industrial decline, and poverty, briefly identify which caused which and when.
    •  Done
      • I still think that paragraph could do a better job saying what caused the downturn and what the effects were. Was industrial decline a main cause? Were people moving to the suburbs before factories closed and jobs were lost? Jsayre64 (talk) 02:03, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I can definitely expand upon that. Buffaboy talk 13:04, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Avoid placing images on both sides of the same text and where they disrupt headings - WP:IMGLOC.
    •  Done, although I think I did the best I can with this.
  • Make sure every paragraph ends with at least one citation to a reliable source supporting the info.
    •  Done
  • It would be helpful to split the history section into sub-sections like 18th century, 19th century, etc.
    •  Done
  • In the geography section, 16.4 square miles plus 0.3 equals 16.7, not 16.6, and the 1.57% figure doesn’t make sense either.
    •  Done
      • Also, many of the % values in the demographics section, prose and table, don't add up. Jsayre64 (talk) 05:51, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I've triple checked the numbers between the source and the table/prose, and despite them not adding up to 100%, they are the right numbers. It's pretty strange, but Seattle and Minneapolis have the same issue however.
  • The climate section says the city’s record low is −28 °F (−33 °C), while the table below says it’s −30 °F (−34 °C).
    • The issue I had with the weather table was a lack of information on Utica's weather statistics. I was able to get the record high, but couldn't find the record low. Utica does not have an NWS office in the city, nor an airport, so I had to use the Rome, NY statistics for the table, and the record highs and lows in the prose are from the Weather Underground website. How can I consolidate all of these sources into one in the absence of reliable weather data?
      • In that case, I think you should keep the Rome statistics in the table (labeled, of course) and have relevant numbers for Utica in the prose. When numbers for Utica are unavailable, use numbers from Rome and indicate that it's Rome. Jsayre64 (talk) 17:22, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
  • In the topography section, mention the Mohawk name for the city.
    •  Done
  • Add citations in the sports teams table like it’s done in the demographics table, or put them in a separate column titled “reference” or “references.”
    •  Done
  • Try to avoid less-reliable sources like IMDb, which is a wiki (see WP:UGC); look for a replacement source supporting the info.
    •  Done
  • This isn’t in the GA criteria, but it's still important to use the GA toolbox in the upper right to fix links and things.
    •  Will do

Don't worry that these are major issues. They can be addressed without too much trouble. --Jsayre64 (talk) 04:52, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I've asked here about the copyright status of three images used in the article. Jsayre64 (talk) 05:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
If I wanted to use historical imagery in an article and I didn't know the copyright details, would an email be used as evidence? That's not the case here though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buffaboy (talkcontribs) 16:47, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, a historical image would have to meet the requirements here. If it doesn't, WP:COPYREQ explains how you can ask a copyright holder (usually by email) to release an image under a free license so you can upload it. Jsayre64 (talk) 20:23, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it looks like at least one of the images currently in the article will have to be deleted. Jsayre64 (talk) 21:50, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
In a perfect world all kinds of historical portraits and imagery could be at my fingertips, but I will say that the removal of that image doesn't compromise the integrity of the article. Buffaboy talk 21:53, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Right. You can put one or two helpful ones in the external links, though. Here are some more things:

  • One more reference is needed in the collegiate teams table.
    •  Done
  • If possible, find and add info. to the history section about when the Mohawk people arrived in the area and some details about their ways of life. Then the lead could benefit from a short summary of that info.
    •  I did the best I could with this
  • The guideline at WP:FURTHER isn't specific, but everything in the further reading section should be helpful to readers. And make sure that the references, further reading, and external links sections don't have duplicate listings.
    •  Done

--Jsayre64 (talk) 22:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

  • The property crime numbers in the table don't match what's in the prose. Also, in the table, sources should be cited by footnote just like in the prose.
  • It's OK that the text gives the 2013 and 2014 statistics, but the table should list all the 2014 numbers if possible. Jsayre64 (talk) 17:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • New data actually just came out a couple weeks ago for 2015, so I'll update them to that.
  •  Done
  • Not a big deal, but I'm not sure why the last note in the notes section is formatted differently than the other three footnotes there.
    •  I think this is automatic
  • Try to eliminate duplicate links.
    •  Done

--Jsayre64 (talk) 00:26, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

You could add a sentence to the history section about that—if it's considered big news for central New York. I don't think it should go in the economy section because it sounds like those jobs won't take effect until a couple years from now. Jsayre64 (talk) 17:20, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I think this can wait for a while until more information comes out.
  • Economy: “While the decline of the local textile industry during the early 20th century had a significant impact on the local economy, the industry remained stagnant until the late 1940s, when air-conditioned mills opened in the southern United States.” I find this sentence confusing because “while” is usually used to set up a contrast/comparison, but it doesn’t seem to be used that way here. I recommend the sentence be changed to something like the following, if this is accurate: “In the early 20th century, the local textile industry began to decline, which had a significant impact on the local economy. When air-conditioned mills opened in the southern United States in the late 1940s, they replaced more of Utica’s factory-based economy.”
    • The sentence you proposed would be best, fixed.
  • Law, government, and politics: at the end of the first paragraph, specify what party dominated Utica politics in the 20th century.
    •  Done
  • “Utica is served by the United States District Court for the Northern District of New York, with offices in the Alexander Pirnie Federal Building.” This should probably be moved to somewhere in the first paragraph where it would be more on-topic and would fit in better.
    • I moved some things around.
  • Culture: “The restored Hotel Utica, designed by Esenwein & Johnson in 1912, had become a nursing and residential-care facility until the mid-1970s; notable guests included Franklin D. Roosevelt, Judy Garland and Bobby Darin.” I don’t know how reliable the article for Hotel Utica is, but it says that the building operated as a hotel from 1912 until the mid-1970s, when it became an adult care facility, and once again became a hotel in the 21st century.
    •  I switched the wording around a bit.
But did it actually operate as a hotel between 1912 and the mid-1970s, instead of a residential-care facility during that time period? Jsayre64 (talk) 04:18, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
  • The book source was unclear, the web source was correct. Fixed.
  • Parks and recreation: The “Gives Utica Four Parks” NY Times article cited, which I found here, says nothing about the info. in the second sentence of this section.
    •  Done I don't remember adding that (I probably didn't), but I've added a supporting ref.
  • A few of the citations to books don’t include page numbers, which are important since many books are only off-line.

--Jsayre64 (talk) 04:55, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Just so I can keep track, the ISBNs are
    • 9780804740142YesY
    • 9780387251547YesY
    • 9780470068649YesY
    • 9781780056326YesY
      • Not done No page numbers are in the book.
    • 9780979596902YesY
Good progress. I know these are a lot of things to deal with at once. The remaining issues are the clarity in the lead, good enough for GA citations supporting the ends of paragraphs, Done the geography numbers, Done the numbers in the demographics table, Done and page numbers for book sources where possible. Done Jsayre64 (talk) 17:31, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
The article has passed GA. Congratulations. Jsayre64 (talk) 16:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Climate data is inaccurate[edit]

I normally look at the Good article nominations page and when I came to this page and looked at the climate section, there are a couple of problems that were not detected during the good article review (I'm not trying to seek a reassessment of this page).If you compare this to other major cities in New York such as Buffalo, Albany, Syracuse, and New York City, they are correct and follow a similar format which should be present in this article.

  1. In the yearly field for average high and average low, the values are incorrect. The yearly values should be the average of the mean maximum and mean minimum temperatures over those 12 months. Thus from the weatherbase source (I'll try to find this on NOAA since weatherbase is littered with ads and is not that reliable), the yearly value for average high and low should be 56.4 and 36.5 respectively. NOAA does this when they calculate the yearly values for average high, low and mean temperatures.
  2. The mean daily sunshine data is inaccurate. The source from weatherbase is based on daylight hours, which would be the theoretical amount of sunshine if no clouds were present. Daylight and sunshine hours are not the same concept and this field should be removed. It would be absurd that Utica has 12.8 hours of sunshine per day on average (which amounts to 4675 hours of sunshine per year, an impossible amount). The percent possible sunshine part is correct and accurate.

Ssbbplayer (talk) 04:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I found NOAA 1981–2010 normals data for the Utica airport here. Just select the year 2010 and click the button. The data are a bit incomplete but they're good enough for a {{weather box}}. I also found data from weather.com here. (They're the same numbers for all of Utica's zip codes.) So @Buffaboy: I bet you can change the data used for this article at Template:Utica weatherbox from Rome to Utica. Jsayre64 (talk) 06:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
@Jsayre64: That should do it. Buffaboy talk 15:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
@Jsayre64: Actually, they don't include extremes, so does this mean I keep the ones already there? Buffaboy talk 02:41, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
I just noticed that at the weather.com page [2] you can check the "Record High" and "Record Low" boxes, and then the graph will display the record temperatures for each month. So I recommend you use all those numbers from weather.com to redo Template:Utica weatherbox, so the article will have reliable numbers for Utica instead of Rome, and that should resolve the climate data issues. By the way, I saved an archived version of that webpage because I have a feeling it is likely to soon change or disappear, so now we've got that for future use. Jsayre64 (talk) 03:05, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Images & layout[edit]

There are too many images in this article now. Crowded together with the chart and all the tables, they make the page look messy. Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Images#Location has some guidelines about image layout, and MoS compliance is part of the FA criteria. I'm not going to be the one to decide what images to remove, but I'm trying to help improve the chances of this article succeeding at FAC if it's nominated. Jsayre64 (talk) 06:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

An editor recently added several images to the body that I had to remove. How many should be in the History section? I think I may have overloaded it with the picture of the hotel. Buffaboy talk 15:46, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
On my screen, it looks like the history section can fit up to 4 images. The geography, infrastructure, and education sections look messiest to me right now. I suggest setting many of the images to a smaller size. And the blank space above the climate chart could be filled with a {{wide image}}. Here's what I find to be the most important piece of advice from the MoS guideline: "avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, or between an image and infobox, navigation template, or similar." Jsayre64 (talk) 16:04, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Historic places[edit]

It seems a bit unusual for there to be a massive list with whitespace within nothing but prose, of historic places that could either be in a separate category or article. Should I remove it? Buffaboy talk 01:35, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

These were added earlier today in the History Section and formatted as a,b,c,d,e... which I thought was horribly unreadable, so I changed it to the list format in a separate section. I was looking around and found the article on Albany which has a summary in a "Museums and historic sites" section and a whole separate article National Register of Historic Places listings in Albany, New York. That would probably be the best solution, but would be a lot of work to write a good article like this one for Utica. I guess it could just start out as a list. MB (talk) 04:30, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
I guess it's better than that big blurb that was under History, but we'll have to find a better solution at some point. Buffaboy talk 17:34, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

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Removed huge "Cuisine" section.[edit]

After looking at like-sized cities' "Culture" section I removed the entire "cuisine" element, essentially re-named foods that Uticans keep telling the world they "invented" despite lots of proof otherwise.

They didn't invent "Greens" so why does this Wiki discuss "Utica Greens" as if they are anything different?

Ditto "Tomato Pies", "Half Moons" and "riggies" (renamed Chicken Rigatoni no less!)and all this other renamed food.

I don't see ANY foods mentioned in the Syracuse and Buffalo threads why does Utica need to advertise food here relentlessly?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.94.60 (talkcontribs)

This article has been through hell and high water to get to where it is now. The other 2 articles also discuss cuisine. Just because you are unhappy with the topic itself does not mean you need to reflect your personal opinions on the article. --Buffaboy talk 04:41, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@Buffaboy: please add your support at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Utica, New York and related pages. -Apocheir (talk) 16:33, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Merge Cornhill, Utica, New York[edit]

Cornhill, Utica, New York has three references: two are dead and one is just census numbers. Since the vast majority of the material there is uncited, i'd merge (or just redirect) it here. -Apocheir (talk) 19:22, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and redirected Cornhill, Utica, New York here. There was really no salvageable content on that page. -Apocheir (talk) 18:41, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Miscellaneous issues[edit]

  • This uncited statement: "Although Utica and the neighboring city of Rome have their own metropolitan area, both cities are also represented and influenced by the commercial, educational and cultural characteristics of the Capital District and Syracuse metropolitan areas." In my opinion, Syracuse, yes; the Capital District, much less so; what the Capital District has is a significant political influence, as it does on the rest of the state too. Anyways, it's not supported by citations.
    • Realized that further down the page is this: "Further bolstering the city are its commercial, educational and cultural ties to the Capital District and Syracuse metropolitan areas.[67]" Same issue, and the reference doesn't really support the claim; it doesn't really show that the Capital District has any more sway over Utica than any other city with a SUNY school.
  • I don't see what File:Utica street signs.jpg adds to this article. All I get out of it is that Utica has streets named after people who used to live there or were locally significant... like every other town in the US.
  • Why are there two redundant climate charts?
  • Why are there two redundant population charts?

-Apocheir (talk) 14:09, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

  • The lead section of the article only really needs citations for skeptical claims. While the sentence probably needs tweaking, in reality it reflects content in the article. For example, SUNY Poly has campuses in Utica/Marcy as well as Albany, and the Syracuse media market has close ties with that of Utica. Perhaps you can call it a filler sentence, but I put it in upon making a comparison with the Youngstown, Ohio article, a city sandwiched between Pittsburgh and Cleveland.
  • I don't remember who added the sign, but it's to show the connection between early property owners and the naming of streets, as said here:
Early settlers and property owners contributed to the development of the city, and many families and individuals are remembered in street names.
  • The climate chart (not table) does seem redundant and could probably be removed
  • I did make the population chart, but it doesn't add much value to the article as it's hard to read.
Feel free to modify anything you have concerns with, nobody owns an article Buffaboy talk 08:43, 6 January 2018 (UTC).
I did modify the article in response to the first two issues. You reverted my changes. I'm attempting to do a (somewhat delayed) WP:BRD cycle here. I think we agree on the last two bullets, but for the first two:
  • I'm not disagreeing with you about Syracuse. You are (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) a SUNY Poly student, so please keep in mind that Albany may figure into your life moreso than most residents of the area.
  • I see the description, but like I said, the description is true of nearly every city in the US. None of these people are notable; the only one I can even identify is Earle C. Reed (local businessperson, founder of the Boilermaker). The section the image is in is kind of cluttered with images.
-Apocheir (talk) 18:38, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
@Apocheir: I no longer go there and subsequently don't have as much interest in the article today as I did then. Having said that, I still agree with your proposed changes even though I reverted them back then. It was probably because I had a WP:OWN complex about the article and wanted to meld it in the way I saw fit, especially after vandalism.
One thing about city articles is that there's no cut and dried way to make them! Buffaboy talk 01:00, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Well, if there was a clear distinction between WP:STEWARDSHIP and WP:OWNERSHIP, they probably wouldn't be on the same page. Thanks for your work.-Apocheir (talk) 02:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)