Talk:Morgenthau Plan

Bakker-Schut-Plan

thumb|Broschüren mit Annexionspropaganda (von 1945) I found in the german wikipedia the Bakker-Schut-Plan.[1]a dutch annextion plan for wide areas in north-western germany .does somebody know the connection betwen this and the

the morgenthau plan. ist a variation of it.

Karte der nach Bakker Schut zu annektierenden nordwestdeutschen Gebiete.

--131.173.252.9 22:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Having read the article I remain puzzled: Are you saying the Morganthau Plan was never carried out? It is my understanding it was carried out (killing between 5.5 and 15 million nice white Germans - the range of figures simply represents my ignorance) while the U.S. authorities denied it was being carried out. The policy was reversed circa ?1950. [Incidentaly I have a copy of the plan, which is fairly brief; should I post it?] Source: the book 'Crimes and Mercies'.

Which specific measures of the plan, as listed in the article, do you think were carried out? Dividing the country north and south? Making it an international zone? Agrarian? What? Jayjg ^(talk) 17:21, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Morgenthau Plan was broadly implemented. Not just the division of Germany and the lose of a third of its territory (Silesia, Danzig) but first of all by the complete dismantling of whole economic sectors in which Germany had a leading technology, like Aerospace. Germany lost most of its Aircraft industry, being the most important part of it sent to the U.S. I don´t know how many patents were stolen by the U.S. but it is evident an great part of American post-War economic recovery was led by patents, factories and brain drain stolen from Germany. Just a little part of it was returned under the Marshall Plan....but whole economic sectors were never returned neither by the U.S. nor by the USSR.--88.24.242.203 (talk) 04:09, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Category:Germanophobia not consistent with NPOV

A phobia is a psychological disorder characterized by an irrational and persistent fear. This categorization implies that Wikipedia is ascribing such a psychological disorder to the proponents of the Morgenthau Plan. Apart from the article on germanophobia itself, it is difficult to imagine a case where the category can be assigned without violating NPOV.--Boson 21:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's be frank, the real reason for the Morgenthau Plan was anger, hate and revenge against the Germans, and given what the Germans did, who can blame them??? What the Nazi's did was a million times worse than anything Islamic terrorists have done, and look at how most people hate them.68.164.0.172 (talk) 03:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me, what the german did in 1944 to evoke "anger, hate and revenge" from the USA? The holocaust only came out when the war was over... Also, what the nazi did was far worse than anything Islamic terrorist have done, that maybe right, but it wasn't worse of what the US did to the natives or England/ France/ Belgium did to Africa or what Israel is doing in Palestine or what USSR did in Ukrain (Holdomor anyone?) So? The only clear point is: FDR administration was a warmonger administration like Bush, and FDR was a Germanophobic.201.79.44.87 (talk) 23:40, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Bias

What we have hear is the same that has happened in the article on Drang nach Osten: the text has been taken by contributors with clear German nationalist sympathies to a place far beyond that taken by the corresponding articles in the German wikipedia.

For that matter, it would be interesting to see what sort of factual arguments can be given to support Hoover's position. What is not analysed here is the extent to which pro-German sympathies and early Cold War panic contributed to the shelving of the plan. Feketekave (talk) 22:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

German nationalist sympathies ? - details please. 84.139.235.50 (talk) 10:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Why does the English language Wikipedia have to conform on articles with the German Wikipedia? Do you dream up such "appeals to propriety"? How many German civilians died as a result of the 1945-47 disguised Morgenthau Plan? (The US Army tied its own hands through legalists in critical positions, all of whom resigned more or less concurrently when their scheme could be carried no further). Regarding German deaths in the US Zone between 1945-47, please spare the "they would have died anyway" salvation code words. I am a US Army veteran, Feb 1962 to Feb 1965 (my MOS was Morse Code operator). The USA was being pragmatic in changing policies -- the greatest driver was the Soviets' announced position that the USA was deliberately starving the Germans, plus the US concern that the continued starvation would result in all of Germany going Communist.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by ANNRC (talk • contribs) 15:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You need to be taught the difference between intentional and unintentional starvation. My uncle was in the American army in WWII and after the war--LOTS of food WAS shipped to alleviate famine in Germany, and the notion that any famine was intentional is not only false but insulting. Anyway, given what Germany did during the war, they don't have a leg to stand on--including the civilians, almost all of whom loved Hitler when the Wehrmacht was kicking ass, and paid no mind to the smell of human flesh burning from some of the camps that were in Germany. Germany is damned lucky they got a single roll of bread and the fact that today many of them bitch about it, and get pissed that Poland took some of their land indicates a clear lack or either remorse or understanding of the horrors they inflicted on millions of people. Every time I read or watch something on WWII, I'm amazed that the Allies didn't fragment Germany back to the way it used to be back in the days of the Holy Roman Empire. They started the worst, most murderous war in human history, and during it, committed the most wicked, depraved act of evil ever concocted by the human species (and that says a hell of a lot!). They should count their blessings and quit their bitching (and I'm HALF German).68.164.0.172 (talk) 03:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

This article could be a reprint from the Volkischer Beobacter. It definitely seems to have a German revisionist POV --- one almost expects a reference to Morgenthau's being Jewish. Oh wait, there are a couple (but they're tastefully subtle). The article also ignores COMPLETELY efforts to undermine the Morgenthau Plan by New York- and London-based bankers. See James Stewart Martin's "All Honorable Men" (http://theviewfromthepoopdeck.blogspot.com/) for a firsthand account of how Western capitalists successfully blocked decartelization of German industry. According to Martin, expropriation of German factory equipment became largely symbolic, mostly involving obsolete equipment, and was driven by strident French demands for compensation. Aviation technology was of course a principal source of military power (even under the Weimar Republic, civilian aviation was merely a front for the development of military aircraft); it's not surprising that it was dismantled by the victors. Martin's experience butting heads with the bankers shows that subversion of Allied policy by financial interests began even before the shooting had ended. ... Nazi control of Germany was only diluted by their loss of the combat phase of WW2, it certainly didn't end with it; they used the Red Scare to insinuate themselves back into positions of power in West Germany --- and elsewhere. The section dealing with the Red Cross appears to have no relevance; intentional starvation of German citizens was not a stated objective of Morgenthau's plan. The tenor of this article suggests to me that pro-Nazi propagandists are alive and well on the Internet. --Captqrunch (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Relevance of details about relief organisations

The following text does not appear to be relevant to this article, and (in my opinion) it definitely doesn't belong in the Overview section.

In 1945 the German Red Cross was dissolved[11][12] , and the International Red Cross and other international relief agencies were kept from helping ethnic Germans through strict controls on supplies and on travel.[13] The few agencies permitted to operate within Germany, such as the indigenous Caritas Verband, were not allowed to use imported supplies. When the Vatican attempted to transmit food supplies from Chile to German infants[14] the U.S. State Department forbade it.[15] In early October 1945 the UK government privately acknowledged in a cabinet meeting that, German civilian adult death rates had risen to four times the pre-war levels and death rates amongst the German children had risen by 10 times the pre-war levels.[16] In early 1946 U.S. President Harry S. Truman finally bowed to pressure from Senators, Congress and public to allow foreign relief organization to enter Germany in order to review the food situation. In mid-1946 non-German relief organizations were finally permitted to help starving German children.[17] During 1946 the average German adult received less than 1,500 calories a day. 2,000 calories was then considered the minimum an individual can endure on for a limited period of time with reasonable health.[18]

--Boson (talk) 06:04, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I disagree with you as to the relevance to the article, but I would consent to moving it down. Motives:

"Many Americans today suppose that “we put Germany on its feet after the war,” but the truth is more nearly the opposite. U.S. policy was intended to inflict economic privation. As part of the JCS 1067 punishment philosophy, U.S. forces were not supposed to provide ordinary relief. Troops were specifically ordered not to let American food supplies go to hungry Germans. American households were instructed not to let their German maids have leftovers; excess food was to be destroyed or rendered inedible (Davidson 1959, 85). A German university professor pointed out that U.S. soldiers “create unnecessary ill will to pour twenty litres of left-over cocoa in the gutter when it is badly needed in our clinics. It makes it hard for me to defend American democracy among my countrymen” (qtd. in Davidson 1959, 86)."[2]

the above text connects it nicely with JCS1067, i.e. with the Morgenthau plan, but perhaps it should simply be copy pasted into the JCS 1067 sub-section then. We should add to it also the info that the Americans were deliberately destroying food rather than letting hungry Germans eat though...

Looking at it from a formal standpoint we can also use the "official" version as to why food shipments to hungry Germans were stopped.

"'Germany had been closed to relief shipments until December on the grounds that they might tend to negate the policy of restricting the German standard of living to the average of the surrounding European nations. CARE package shipments to individuals remained prohibited until 5 June 1946." [3] (Footnote 13).

The part on "restricting German standard of living" is verbatim from the industrial plans for Germany, which also derived from the Morgenthau plan. An option, less favored by, would be to move it to that article instead (and also adding a new sentence on American official occupation policy to destroy food in Germany).

--Stor stark7 ^Speak 13:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Basic book on plan not referenced?

James Bacque's "Crimes and Mercies: The Fate of German Civilians Under Allied Occupation 1944-1950" . Does not appear to be referenced. This is particularly disturbing because I put it in, so it has been actively removed. This is a basic book on the subject of the plan. Its tone is moderate, excessively so.

Contrast this with the inclusion of a large list of Time articles. Time is very "patriotic" as we all know well.

By covering up atrocities we make ourselves complicit; we make it possible for further atrocities to occur; we have blood on our hands.

I'm afraid this is a particularly clear example of Wikipedia having been turned. Anybody give a toss?

Thousand apologies if the reference is still there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sporus (talk • contribs) 17:14, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I think the contribution of yours that was removed was a link to a Web site promoting James Bacque and his books. The best place for a link to that Web site is probably the article on James Bacque. I would agree that the plethora of "further reading" items should be removed, including the Time articles. Wikipedia is not a directory of books or magazine articles by subject. Books and magazine articles should be referenced in footnotes to substantiate statements made in the article, including statements about reports in the American media. It may be appropriate to reference a few authoritative books on some subjects. Discussions of James Bacque and his works are covered elsewhere, e.g. in the articles Disarmed Enemy Forces, Other Losses and James Bacque --Boson (talk) 22:12, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

It is surely appropriate for a bibliography to be included in an article. If it is extensive then so much the better. James Bacque, as far as I know, was the first to get access to the Russian archives. His book is scholarly. We all know perfectly well that the problem with the book is it accuses the victors, the allies, especially the Americans, of gross crimes against humanity.Sporus (talk) 01:10, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

That may be a problem that some people have with the book. Though it seems to be generally recognised that he drew attention to some things that had ben neglected, some historians apparently have problems with the reliability of his estimates. His books receives quite a lot of weight in more relevant articles (possibly too much weight relative to his standing as a historian). Other historians, like Professor Greiner, who wrote a whole book on the Morgenthau Plan, get no mention at all in this article.

My normal reaction is to be sceptical of statements that begin with "We all know perfectly well that . . .".

Wikipedia, like other encyclopaedias, does not normally have such long lists of additional reading and Web links. The appropriate guideline talks of a "reasonable" number.

--Boson (talk) 06:40, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

It is a truism that the victor writes the history book. Is Wikipedia happy to become part of this terrible tradition? There is powerful evidence that of the order of 10 million Germans were killed by the US in the period 1945-1950. A generalized appeal to sobriety in this context appears to imply, "Speak no evil." Whatever it is it is not sobriety.

Sporus (talk) 03:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, one book that was actually on the subject of the article was written by Bernd Greiner. I believe he is German, and I have no reason to classify him as one of the "victors". Feel free to suggest improvements to the article based on the information in his book and give his book as a reference. Do you have specific suggestions for improving the article and/or making it better conform to Wikipedia policies and guidelines? --Boson (talk) 10:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Further reading

I've pruned this heavily, removing those that were already used as references. Our MOS says " A bulleted list, usually alphabetized, of a reasonable number of editor-recommended publications that do not appear elsewhere in the article and were not used to verify article content. Editors may include brief annotations." I'm not sure the list of Time articles is 'reasonable'. I also removed some links that required Flash, see WP:ELNO. Dougweller (talk) 18:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

There must be innumerable magazine articles on many topics in Wikipedia, and I don't see what is so special about these Time articles. I suggest removing them.--Boson (talk) 07:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Can sombody translate this german wikipedia articles into english

Belgische Annexionspläne nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg (Belgian Annexion plans...)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgische_Annexionspl%C3%A4ne_nach_dem_Zweiten_Weltkrieg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mullerkingdom (talk • contribs) 22:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Luxembourgian Annexion plans

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxemburgische_Annexionspl%C3%A4ne_nach_dem_Zweiten_Weltkrieg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mullerkingdom (talk • contribs) 22:23, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Mortality Rate

Is there any way we can have a medical expert analyze this and tell us just how many people would've died due to the systematic starvation/forced heavy labor policy imposed by the allies? Several years of less than half the required nutrients in addition to lack of shelter & over crowding/poor sanitation aren't liable towards long-term survival. I can just imagine how many miscarriages/child deaths resulted as well. Plus the fact that desperate mothers, trying to save their children would've been forced into prostituting themselves to GIs to get a few scraps... it's mass rape by extortion & worse than the Soviets atrocities. (Charles Lindberg himself took advantage of at least 3 such women in such fashion)

It's a shame our media (what would Oprah say about this?) refuses to cover this, it was the greatest atrocity in America's history. We had an OBLIGATION to feed them all after stealing a quarter of their land from them. Unlike Hiroshima/Nagasaki, WE HAD NO EXCUSE for doing this, it was torturing Germans for the crime of being German, Nuremberg's 'intention' (only the leaders were guilty) notwithstanding, we conditioned them to believe they were ALL EVIL AND DESERVED MISERY. As a result, no other people is filled with more self-hate as they are.96.238.134.140 (talk) 21:31, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, we get along quite well these days, thank you. -- 91.62.232.117 (talk) 22:40, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Who? The occupants? 139.139.67.70 (talk) 13:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

David Irving would disagree. See German Laws. Google video search "David Irving" Oldspammer (talk) 07:58, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Forget Irving. Most eye-witnesses would disagree, as most babies had been starving when born between 1945 and 1948... 139.139.67.70 (talk) 13:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Even if this all actually took effect (which most of it really didnt eisenhower shipped in a ton of food in the first year) the soviets would still have us beat, by far. This plan was more of a dont give them anything type plan, wheras the soviets were openly raping and murdering people. I know people like to make the americans look evil but the fact is we treated the germans, for the most part, alright, the germans actually fought across their country to surrender to the americans because the americans treated them better. (although we turned them back voer to the russians because we really had no idea how bad they were and we didnt have the resources to feed them).

You are talking about which year? At first, only the care packages organized/ donated by religious and humanitarian groups did help to feed people. 139.139.67.70 (talk) 13:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Keeling? Really?

Keeling is a primary source for this article? Really? So much for grabbing a few quick facts and references from wikipedia.... --184.99.178.223 (talk) 05:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I see no evidence it was used in the article, and I've deleted it from the list of primary sources. Dougweller (talk) 06:54, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

"Morgenthau's Pastoral Policy"

Google ("Morgenthau's Pastoral Policy") and a man, who visited the university where Woodrow Wilson's papers were kept was supposedly escorted by a grad student with access to them to see the document. Reference:

• William R. Lyne. Pentagon Aliens (1993. 306 pages, Creatopia, 3rd edition, PB, 2007. ISBN 978-0-9637467-7-1)

A person on the web has setup a blog to call Lyne a liar about various things, but instead of asking a UT official if at any time UT Law School had any courses there taken by William R. Lyne, the blogger instead asks if Lyne was an alumni (which typically means a graduate class member who UT Law would likely hit up for a yearly donation?).

Lyne is a older person who writes about UFOs originating from Earth derived from Tesla electromagnetic propulsion systems. Lyne promotes in his various books that Germany was raided for its scientists, etc, for project paperclip, that resulted in two programs at NASA being run--An UFO covert op, and the public rocketry program for satellites, unmanned exploration, and moon shots.

In Lyne's account of events, he claims to have seen these historical documents where Morgenthau post WW1 during the time of the Treaty of Versailles Peace Talks proposes / advances a plan to Woodrow Wilson and the assembled negotiators to make Germany into farming pasture land, (devoid of people?), to prevent the German people from entering into wars in the future. A 90 minute Google video explains Lyne's alternative conspiratorial (fantasy/plausible?) views on history involving Hitler, UFOs, Nasa, the Military Industrial Complex, etc. In this video, the claims about the pastoral policy are present.

When I did my initial search for this William R. Lyne mentioned "Morgenthau's Pastoral Policy" via Google, one of the links lead me to this "Plan" wiki article. However, given that this plan also seems to have had the same goals as to preventing Germany from getting involved in future wars, this Morgenthau guy might have advised Woodrow Wilson just as Lyne claims that he did in this early 1900s document?

Has anyone else seen mention of or the actual pastoral policy papers in order to make reference to this in this wiki article about this later plan? Oldspammer (talk) 07:40, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Sounds to me as if Lyne has jumbled up a number of facts, but the adviser to Wilson would probably have been Henry Morgenthau Sr. (who was at the Paris Peace Conference), not Henry Morgenthau Jr.. Lyne refers to a Hans Morgenthau.--Boson (talk) 13:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)