Talk:Murder of Stephen Lawrence

Murder of Stephen Lawrence
Murder of Stephen Lawrence
Location	Well Hall Road, Eltham, South East London
Date	22 April 1993 ; 10:35 p.m. (GMT)
Target	Stephen Lawrence
Attack type	Stabbing
Deaths	1 killed (Lawrence)
Perpetrators	Gary Dobson; David Norris

Stephen Lawrence
Stephen Lawrence
Born	13 September 1974
Died	22 April 1993 (aged 18); Well Hall Road, Eltham, South East London
Cause of death	Blood loss due to stabbing
Resting place	Clarendon, Jamaica
Education	Blackheath Bluecoat School
Occupation	Student
Known for	Victim of racial murder
Parent(s)	Neville Lawrence; Doreen Lawrence

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Archives

1

Not NPOV

The article generally reads as not NPOV, and tending to minimize the reality of the institutional racism discovered. 86.201.22.46 (talk) 06:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

86.201.22.46 should give details of any "racism". It suits some to be broad and imprecise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.132.123 (talk • contribs) 08:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Witness as catalyst"

In the section Witnesses, it says:

In 2004, the police stated: "The witness who appeared on the right of the scene and walked into Rochester Way with Stephen and Duwayne behind is very important to us. We know who this witness is, she knows who she is, we know what she knows. She has never made a statement. This witness may have been the catalyst for the attack".

What is this supposed to mean? --Tim Landscheidt (talk) 21:38, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Could mean that the attackers thought a white woman was with black guys, but it's too euphemized to be sure... AnonMoos (talk) 02:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Macpherson Report

Wikipedia could really do with a separate article on the Macpherson report. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.228.106.147 (talk) 13:04, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

I've drafted up a couple of infoboxes as there's an "needs-infobox=yes" in this page's header. I don't mind if one of these is used or not, but they're here if anyone wants to add/expand/use them. matt (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a general rule, I don't like infoboxes of this type, as they just repeat information that's already in the article. But I understand that others feel differently about them, so I won't object if somebody adds one of the above infoboxes to the article. Graham87 07:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Photo

Could a photo of Lawrence be included? It would seem an obvious case of WP:NFCI criteria 10.--FormerIP (talk) 21:20, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds reasonable to me, but somebody else will have to upload it. I don't deal with images because I'm totally blind, as it says on my user page. Graham87 07:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

racial murder?

What exactly is the evidence of this being a "racial murder"? --41.151.11.130 (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This. I've added a footnote. I suppose there's a difference between racial and racist, but that reference uses "racial". Plenty of others use the phrase "racist murder", though. matt (talk) 18:46, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Metropolitan Police deception

The Metropolitan Police are making determined attempts to suppress the fact that the two 18-year old Caribbean youths were chasing a young white girl. This was on their own site in 2004. Then they took it off, as too revealing. It is still in the archive version of the Met site. Note that Wnjr is a sock-puppet of the Met. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.127.78 (talk) 13:51, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a link to this reference in the Met site archive, otherwise the allegation will continue to be deleted as unsourced. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The link is in Archive 1 of this Talk page, which gives the wayback archive link to the old Met site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.127.78 (talk) 14:19, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See the paragraph entitled "Metropolitan" in Archive 1 of this Talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.127.78 (talk) 14:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I checked there, couldn't see anything about it either in the wayback machine or on the met page. I've added a CN for now, but if you can't provide an actual source this will just be removed again. Markleci (talk) 14:25, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have just used the wayback machine well so you are not trying much. Click on "Stephen Lawrence" and on the second link from the top. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.127.78 (talk) 14:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok found it. I was using the wayback link before but it doesn't link directly to the page. Here is exactly what the previous anon is referring to. This is really vague, but I would value a second opinion as to whether this should be included at all or not. There is no mention of any provocation. 'The witness who appeared on the right of the screen and walked into Rochester Way with Stephen and Duwayne behind is very important to us. We know who this witness is, she knows who she is, we know what she knows. She has never made a statement. This witness may have been the catalyst for the attack. What happens now is unclear.' Markleci (talk) 14:37, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As with Markleci I've looked and can confirm what was said. I didn't see anywhere that the police said SL or DB were chasing anyone, simply mention of this witness as well as mention in another place of a single white female walking alone and passing the two (in another place). Until and unless a source is provided the OP's claim should be kept out of the article, particularly as a LP is involved. If the OP is still claiming it is there, I suggest they provide a direct link rather then beating about the bush. Nil Einne (talk) 14:55, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I wonder if that could the person referred to in Murder of Stephen Lawrence#Witnesses: "In February 1999, officers investigating the handling of the initial inquiry revealed that a woman who might have been a vital witness had telephoned detectives three times within the first few days after the killing, and appealed for her to contact them again", in which case it is already covered. In any case there's absolutely no justification for the anon's "provocative incident" addition. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Markleci and Nil Einne. This page says a woman "appeared on the right of the screen and walked into Rochester Way with Stephen and Duwayne behind". This does not imply "chasing". The woman may have been a witness and was probably part of the initial police investigation, but there's no reason to believe the Metropolitan Police thought the victim was chasing her. I've also read all seven Wayback captures of this page (click on "Stephen Lawrence murder") and all six Wayback captures of this page from 2003-2004, and there is no reference to any suggestion that the victim might have been chasing a female.

Furthermore, there's no reason to believe the Metropolitan Police have been "suppressing" this information. In fact, the Metropolitan Police were accused of being too lenient on the gang the committed the attack, so if they had any information that might have cast doubts on the lawfulness of the victim, they would surely have publicized the information, not suppressed it.

213.120.127.78 is continually reposting unsourced information and should be blocked. Johnson487682 (talk) 15:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Contradictions

Those standing at the bus stop in Well Hall Road said that they never heard any remarks about a bus. The three at the bus stop also said that the attackers attacked in silence, without making the racialist remark that Brooks claims to have heard. Thus, Brooks has been contradicted repeatedly. Treacy claimed that a "taunt" was used, ignoring the contradiction. Brooks's claim that a meaningless sentence, "What, what, n*gger?", was used, is very implausible. Native speakers of English do not usually produce meaningless sentences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.147.186 (talk) 11:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The first paragraph now says "witnesses" in the plural and "slogans" in the plural. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.147.186 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think you will find that the words is not altogether meaningless, as a racial slur was used. The "what what?" part may not have any meaning, but the other word certainly does. And everyone whose paid attention to this case is aware of the fact the people at the bus stop didn't hear anything, but what are you implying? That this attack was not unprovoked? We don't publish unsourced speculation. --Nutthida (talk) 22:20, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia does publish logic.

Incorrect Hyperlinks

"Sir William Macpherson" links to the wrong Macpherson (going by dates of birth/death). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.219.104 (talk) 12:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed this, too. Checking the name on Wikipedia turns up no other person by that name who could be the right one, so I'm going to un-wikilink the name for now. If the person who headed the report is a significant figure, someone should create an article for him, but for now there isn't one. Lawikitejana (talk) 15:05, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That was my mistake I think, so sorry about that. I have started a biography for him now -- William Macpherson (judge) -- and have update this article accordingly. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 17:13, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Modified evidence

All three at the bus stop have modified their evidence in favour of the Crown. One now has arranged for one of the Caribbeans to be out of sight for a while. This avoids contradicting anyone who saw any misbehaviour in Rochester Way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.122.68 (talk) 13:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New ideas

The Daily Mail and Dacre now say that they are opposed to racialism. The Mail made numerous anti-*** remarks in about 1900. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.122.68 (talk) 13:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See Daily_Mail#Inter-war_period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.122.68 (talk) 13:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]